New Defensive Philosophy

ausbacker · Aug 2, 2013

pencilneckgeek said:
As AJ pointed out, the key is whether they 1-gap or 2-gap. On running downs, whether lined-up in a 3-4 with Jones at 5-tech or lined-up in a 4-3 under, I would expect Kelly and Wilfork to two-gap, while Nink and Jones 1-gap. If Jones get sandwiched by a TE, he'll have Hightower at Sam to help him out. Jones has added 5-10 pounds, but he's still way undersized to 2-gap. If he were to 2-gap for a game, he'd lose the explosiveness that makes him so effective, simply from being worn down by much bigger linemen, who still typically outweigh him by 50 pounds.

Even were Armstead to show-up tomorrow, I still feel like we're thin at DT to help cover us, if Kelly or Wilfork are down for a game. I know it's wishful thinking, but I want Big Sey back.

Nink has played both Sam and DE. On the other hand, with Nink, Collins, and Hightower available and a thinner DL, I don't see Jones standing up much, if at all.

I had the very same thought today pencilneckgeek.

Brady6 · Aug 2, 2013

Fellow Patsfans,

Based on the feedback of all of you I’ve concluded that my assessment that we can make pre-snap reads and audible is likely unrealistic. I do still believe that our personnel allow us to toggle between 3-4 and 4-3 fronts effectively within the same series without substitutions needed :thumb:

I do disagree with the assessment of using 3 DL, over 300 pounds; I actually like the idea of going with the lighter more athletic players at 3 of the 4 DL position the majority of the time.

I sincerely appreciate the constructive feedback; I’ve learned :nerd: so much during my short time on this board, and look forward to learning even more :rocker:

Regards,
Dan

ay-yo · Aug 2, 2013

Last year we used (2) 300 lb DT's with Nink and Jones at DE. Despite the drop off in size our run D did not take a hit. This year Nink will start again as I don't see who would represent an upgrade. The days of using (3) 300 lb DL are over unless one of those guys can offer significant pass rush ability, JMO.

I was actually hoping that Armstead would be starting at DT next to Vince as Armstead supposedly offers more pass rush than Kelly. Doesn't look like that will be happening tho.

randomk1 · Aug 2, 2013

Everybody else play the pass. Vince will stop the run.

Problem solved.

mgteich · Aug 2, 2013

I think one key in looking at the roster is that we need wide bodies for 2-gap defenses against the run, especially for short yardage situations.

With the loss of Love (and the waiving of Deaderick), I think that we lack much depth inside. We have Forston. Some look to Cunningham as the 4th DT. This can certainly work if there are injuries. He's OK as a swing DL. IMHO, we are a player short. Of course, this player could be Armstead.

BTW, I think that it is relatively (last 2-3 years) new for us to play 2 gap inside and 1 gap outside. This defense does seem to suit our personnel.

Mack Herron · Aug 2, 2013

mgteich said:
I think one key in looking at the roster is that we need wide bodies for 2-gap defenses against the run, especially for short yardage situations.

With the loss of Love (and the waiving of Deaderick), I think that we lack much depth inside. We have Forston. Some look to Cunningham as the 4th DT. This can certainly work if there are injuries. He's OK as a swing DL. IMHO, we are a player short. Of course, this player could be Armstead.

BTW, I think that it is relatively (last 2-3 years) new for us to play 2 gap inside and 1 gap outside. This defense does seem to suit our personnel.

I agree that we are a player short inside, but I am increasingly skeptical that Armstead will be sufficiently healthy in time to be that player. I figure either Armstead or Ballard could be candidates to be designated as IR/return.

AzPatsFan · Aug 2, 2013

All this discussion and nary a word about a formation that BB has been trying to implement for a decade and can now, and is doing.

What was real benefit of the "The Big Nickle", a dime formation usinig 3 Safeties?

How does it fit into all the discussion here?

Oswlek · Aug 2, 2013

AzPatsFan said:
All this discussion and nary a word about a formation that BB has been trying to implement for a decade and can now, and is doing.

What was real benefit of the "The Big Nickle", a dime formation usinig 3 Safeties?

How does it fit into all the discussion here?

To get someone as awesome as Victor Green on the field?

patsfanincleveland · Aug 2, 2013

TriplecHamp said:
I think the key to all this are Collins, Nink, and Hightower. All 3 can play DE, all 3 can play standing up on the edge and Collins and Hightower can both play Sam. Scheme versatility will be the biggest single asset to the defense this season. I look foreword to guys moving around in different and exotic fronts rushing and dropping. Controlled chaos.

7/8..........9 "play in space" defenders is the only remedy to offenses going towards 5 "skill guys".

Defenses need to be as fluid as the offenses they face.

Anything less and the offenses will kill them at the matchup game.

The defenses also need the horses for "hurry up".

Fencer · Aug 2, 2013

AzPatsFan said:
All this discussion and nary a word about a formation that BB has been trying to implement for a decade and can now, and is doing.

What was real benefit of the "The Big Nickle", a dime formation usinig 3 Safeties?

How does it fit into all the discussion here?

I don't recall the Big Nickel being a dime; I recall it being, in fact, a nickel.

Anyhow, I imagine it could be game-planned a few times a year against teams with one or (especially) two dangerous TEs, with A. Wilson in the hybrid role.

ctpatsfan77 · Aug 2, 2013

As a not-so-minor point, the Pats at one point were running a 3-4 on one side of Wilfork and a 4-3 on the other side.

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id...ck-vince-wilfork-new-england-patriots-defense

mgteich · Aug 2, 2013

My memory of the big nickel was that we had a safety playing nickel back. This occurred in certain game situations in seasons where we had a top #4 safety. After all, if Arrington is a fine nickel, it makes little sense to have Wilson at nickel.

Fencer said:
I don't recall the Big Nickel being a dime; I recall it being, in fact, a nickel.

Anyhow, I imagine it could be game-planned a few times a year against teams with one or (especially) two dangerous TEs, with A. Wilson in the hybrid role.

IllegalContact · Aug 2, 2013

I'd have to disagree......the 2003 defense stopped everything......especially the pass

Brady6 · Aug 2, 2013

ctpatsfan77 said:
As a not-so-minor point, the Pats at one point were running a 3-4 on one side of Wilfork and a 4-3 on the other side.

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id...ck-vince-wilfork-new-england-patriots-defense

This article is really just an overblown description of an 4-3 under in which the NT and a DE two gap allowing the 3Tech DT and other DE to work one gap and attack the QB.

Brady6 · Aug 3, 2013

Mack Herron said:
I agree that we are a player short inside, but I am increasingly skeptical that Armstead will be sufficiently healthy in time to be that player. I figure either Armstead or Ballard could be candidates to be designated as IR/return.

Armstead hasn't practiced so he can be PUP'ed.

Off The Grid · Aug 3, 2013

ctpatsfan77 said:
As a not-so-minor point, the Pats at one point were running a 3-4 on one side of Wilfork and a 4-3 on the other side.

Bill Belichick, Vince Wilfork, and the New England Patriots defense - Grantland

Unless one is sitting astride multiple Dimensions, it's rather impossible to run a 34 and a 43 simultaneously.

That classic Article refers to Hybrid Gaps, not Fronts.

Joker · Aug 3, 2013

hybrid gaps???

fronts???

hey...this is getting pornographic!!!or I'm a dirty ol' bastich..

supafly · Aug 3, 2013

mgteich said:
With the loss of Love (and the waiving of Deaderick), I think that we lack much depth inside. We have Forston. Some look to Cunningham as the 4th DT. This can certainly work if there are injuries. He's OK as a swing DL. IMHO, we are a player short. Of course, this player could be Armstead.

What do you personally think about the possibility of Marcus Benard?

patsfanincleveland said:
7/8..........9 "play in space" defenders is the only remedy to offenses going towards 5 "skill guys".

Defenses need to be as fluid as the offenses they face.

Anything less and the offenses will kill them at the matchup game.

The defenses also need the horses for "hurry up".

Hopefully the addition of Collins replacing Spikes in subs, Adrian Wilson in the hybrid role, and possibly even Fletcher at times can help to keep some of the same personnel on the field and cover the opposing team's TE and RB much better than they did last year.

Brady6 · Aug 3, 2013

supafly said:
What do you personally think about the possibility of Marcus Benard?
.

Read he was taking Cunningham's snaps at DT today, interesting to me because he's listed as 6'2 256, but his combine/pro day had 6'4 270.

supafly · Aug 3, 2013

Brady6 said:
Read he was taking Cunningham's snaps at DT today, interesting to me because he's listed as 6'2 256, but his combine/pro day had 6'4 270.

I'd have to imagine that the weight would currently at least be close to what the pro day had him at, or Belichick will get him there quickly. The height doesn't tend to matter quite as much for me.

I also noticed a lot of back and forth with the police reports and warrants regarding AH's height. They went back and forth from 6'1" all the way to 6'3".

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