New Defensive Philosophy

[Brady6]

I believe this season is the first time in the BB era that we have a defense built to stop the pass first, for years we put out a front 7 designed to stop the rush first; however in doing that we limited our ability to rush the passer in early downs. I see a number of posts about C. Jones being undersized as a 3-4 DE, or it being a waste of his talents, I disagree whole heartedly. I think this scheme is going to fit Jones perfectly, I think this scheme is finally going to take shape and evolve into the defensive power house we’ve all been wishing for over the last 6-8 years.

The key thing to our defense and our scheme is the versatility to stand up against the rush but be dominate against the pass, much like our offense has come to the line looking one way only to end up completely different before the snap of the ball I see our defense doing something similar. Based on my amateur analysis of training camp and personnel this is what I envision.

Scheme; the goal is to be in a 3-4 front to stop the run and be capable of shifting to a 4-3 to attack the pass. The key players are of course Wilfork and Jones, their versatility is essential to the success of the defense and particularly this scheme.

Wilfork; he is the Tom Brady of this defense so he will be the player who is relied on most to determine the read of the opponents offense and shift accordingly. Wilfork will start early downs in a zero technique, should he read pass he will shift to the one technique between the LG and C therefor taking both of them on.

Jones; with the added weight and full offseason under his belt I believe he is going to be exactly the player BB wanted, a player strong enough to hold up against the run but dynamic as a pass rusher. Jones will start early downs in a five technique, and if Wilfork reads pass he will shift out to a seven technique and because Wilfork has consumed the LG and C Jones will be one on one with the LT (unless the team keeps a TE in).

Kelly/Armstead; they will play start early downs in a five technique and shift to a three technique. If either of these players can force the other team to give help on for from the C on a consistent basis, then I think Wilfork could have a career high 5-7 sacks.

Ninkovich/Collins; this is the OLB/DE position; they will toggle between the six and nine technique depending on the read

Hightower; he will play the six technique shading Jones to compensate for some of the potential run deficiency. On passing downs he will be able to drop into coverage or rush the passer from a six or nine technique, having him on the same side as Jones will be fun to watch, they will be able to stunt, swap techniques and create carious for the LT and LG.

Now as I said I’m an amateur so I could have completely misread the scheme and BB’s vision, I welcome and positive and constructive feedback. I only ask that you not make fun of me because I did give this some sincere effort and that’s what got me through grade school .

 

[RoughingthePasser]

I believe this season is the first time in the BB era that we have a defense built to stop the pass first, for years we put out a front 7 designed to stop the rush first; however in doing that we limited our ability to rush the passer in early downs. I see a number of posts about C. Jones being undersized as a 3-4 DE, or it being a waste of his talents, I disagree whole heartedly. I think this scheme is going to fit Jones perfectly, I think this scheme is finally going to take shape and evolve into the defensive power house we’ve all been wishing for over the last 6-8 years.

The key thing to our defense and our scheme is the versatility to stand up against the rush but be dominate against the pass, much like our offense has come to the line looking one way only to end up completely different before the snap of the ball I see our defense doing something similar. Based on my amateur analysis of training camp and personnel this is what I envision.

Scheme; the goal is to be in a 3-4 front to stop the run and be capable of shifting to a 4-3 to attack the pass. The key players are of course Wilfork and Jones, their versatility is essential to the success of the defense and particularly this scheme.

Wilfork; he is the Tom Brady of this defense so he will be the player who is relied on most to determine the read of the opponents offense and shift accordingly. Wilfork will start early downs in a zero technique, should he read pass he will shift to the one technique between the LG and C therefor taking both of them on.

Jones; with the added weight and full offseason under his belt I believe he is going to be exactly the player BB wanted, a player strong enough to hold up against the run but dynamic as a pass rusher. Jones will start early downs in a five technique, and if Wilfork reads pass he will shift out to a seven technique and because Wilfork has consumed the LG and C Jones will be one on one with the LT (unless the team keeps a TE in).

Kelly/Armstead; they will play start early downs in a five technique and shift to a three technique. If either of these players can force the other team to give help on for from the C on a consistent basis, then I think Wilfork could have a career high 5-7 sacks.

Ninkovich/Collins; this is the OLB/DE position; they will toggle between the six and nine technique depending on the read

Hightower; he will play the six technique shading Jones to compensate for some of the potential run deficiency. On passing downs he will be able to drop into coverage or rush the passer from a six or nine technique, having him on the same side as Jones will be fun to watch, they will be able to stunt, swap techniques and create carious for the LT and LG.

Now as I said I’m an amateur so I could have completely misread the scheme and BB’s vision, I welcome and positive and constructive feedback. I only ask that you not make fun of me because I did give this some sincere effort and that’s what got me through grade school .

I get tired of reading about the offense-thanks for posting this.
The first couple of sentences summarize what I expect from the line and lb's.

We are going to smother teams with our pass rush this year and we have the depth. All the names are above in your post.

I also cant wait to see how good our safeties can hit

 

[Big-T]

When Armstead is fully recovered, the 4-3 under would be perfect for the personnel the Pats have, as seen here 2 pre-seasons ago vs Jacksonville:

Article for the image: Pats Propaganda, Patriots show 4-3 Under Defense vs. Jaguars

On passing downs the 3 LBs in that set could be Ninkovich-Collins-Mayo. Having Jones outside the OT works with his speed and length so the 4-3 under will suit him too then of course in the other 3 spots you have Wilfork, Kelly and Armstead.

For a 3-4 I'd still be inclined to have Jones playing the "elephant" role with Collins, Ninkovich and Mayo in the other 3 spots (if expecting pass, that is) with Kelly-Wilfork-Armstead as the DL.

 

[ausbacker]

When Armstead is fully recovered, the 4-3 under would be perfect for the personnel the Pats have, as seen here 2 pre-seasons ago vs Jacksonville:

Article for the image: Pats Propaganda, Patriots show 4-3 Under Defense vs. Jaguars

On passing downs the 3 LBs in that set could be Ninkovich-Collins-Mayo. Having Jones outside the OT works with his speed and length so the 4-3 under will suit him too then of course in the other 3 spots you have Wilfork, Kelly and Armstead.

For a 3-4 I'd still be inclined to have Jones playing the "elephant" role with Collins, Ninkovich and Mayo in the other 3 spots (if expecting pass, that is) with Kelly-Wilfork-Armstead as the DL.

Ninkovich - Armstead - Kelly - Jones
     Hightower - Mayo - Collins

   Kelly - Wilfork - Armstead
Collins - Hightower - Mayo - Jones

Playing around with 34 and 43 alignments, I really do hope the Patriots can retain a healthy team for a change. The current composition does allow for a heap of different looks and combos. They are definitely shallow at DT and probably an impact end (Ninko, I do love you but...) away from a super front 7.

**Note**
There are far more combos available and I have overlooked certain players typing these two.

 

[Fencer]

Does Ninko have the speed to play LB in a 4-3? I'm dubious.

Gimmicks aside, you usually have to be a freak athlete to play DE and LB in the same set. Normally the guys who move from LB to DE do so because the set changes (e.g., the nickel package comes in).

 

[TriplecHamp]

I think the key to all this are Collins, Nink, and Hightower. All 3 can play DE, all 3 can play standing up on the edge and Collins and Hightower can both play Sam. Scheme versatility will be the biggest single asset to the defense this season. I look foreword to guys moving around in different and exotic fronts rushing and dropping. Controlled chaos.

 

[Ring 6]

I believe this season is the first time in the BB era that we have a defense built to stop the pass first, for years we put out a front 7 designed to stop the rush first; however in doing that we limited our ability to rush the passer in early downs. I see a number of posts about C. Jones being undersized as a 3-4 DE, or it being a waste of his talents, I disagree whole heartedly. I think this scheme is going to fit Jones perfectly, I think this scheme is finally going to take shape and evolve into the defensive power house we’ve all been wishing for over the last 6-8 years.

The key thing to our defense and our scheme is the versatility to stand up against the rush but be dominate against the pass, much like our offense has come to the line looking one way only to end up completely different before the snap of the ball I see our defense doing something similar. Based on my amateur analysis of training camp and personnel this is what I envision.

Scheme; the goal is to be in a 3-4 front to stop the run and be capable of shifting to a 4-3 to attack the pass. The key players are of course Wilfork and Jones, their versatility is essential to the success of the defense and particularly this scheme.

Wilfork; he is the Tom Brady of this defense so he will be the player who is relied on most to determine the read of the opponents offense and shift accordingly. Wilfork will start early downs in a zero technique, should he read pass he will shift to the one technique between the LG and C therefor taking both of them on.

Jones; with the added weight and full offseason under his belt I believe he is going to be exactly the player BB wanted, a player strong enough to hold up against the run but dynamic as a pass rusher. Jones will start early downs in a five technique, and if Wilfork reads pass he will shift out to a seven technique and because Wilfork has consumed the LG and C Jones will be one on one with the LT (unless the team keeps a TE in).

Kelly/Armstead; they will play start early downs in a five technique and shift to a three technique. If either of these players can force the other team to give help on for from the C on a consistent basis, then I think Wilfork could have a career high 5-7 sacks.

Ninkovich/Collins; this is the OLB/DE position; they will toggle between the six and nine technique depending on the read

Hightower; he will play the six technique shading Jones to compensate for some of the potential run deficiency. On passing downs he will be able to drop into coverage or rush the passer from a six or nine technique, having him on the same side as Jones will be fun to watch, they will be able to stunt, swap techniques and create carious for the LT and LG.

Now as I said I’m an amateur so I could have completely misread the scheme and BB’s vision, I welcome and positive and constructive feedback. I only ask that you not make fun of me because I did give this some sincere effort and that’s what got me through grade school .

The part about Vince Wilfork reading a play and changing the defense isn't realistic.

We aren't stronger pass/run by 34/43 alignment of the same personnel.
We can do everything we want out of either alignment. Each offers different means of disguise and versatility.

 

[Brady6]

Ninkovich - Armstead - Kelly - Jones
     Hightower - Mayo - Collins

   Kelly - Wilfork - Armstead
Collins - Hightower - Mayo - Jones

Playing around with 34 and 43 alignments, I really do hope the Patriots can retain a healthy team for a change. The current composition does allow for a heap of different looks and combos. They are definitely shallow at DT and probably an impact end (Ninko, I do love you but...) away from a super front 7.

**Note**
There are far more combos available and I have overlooked certain players typing these two.

I think you clearly missed the point, which is moving away from having the front 4 consist of 3 DL who are 300 pounds or heavier.

 

[ausbacker]

I think you clearly missed the point, which is moving away from having the front 4 consist of 3 DL who are 300 pounds or heavier.

No, I read your point. I went with my own ideas of what I'd like the Front 7 to start looking like in given formations.

 

[mgteich]

Andy and fencer (and others) can give the you the x's and o's, but in general I'm not buying.

1) IMHO, Wilfork does not call the schemes and plays based on what he sees. That is the job of the DC and is communicated to one of the linebackers.

2) In the NFL, if you can't stop the run, it makes no difference how you do against the pass.

3) Yes, I do see last year's Jones as being undersized for 3-4 DE.

4) If we have the same personnel, with Ninko or Collins as the DE/OL the difference between 3-4 and 4-3 is very little indeed.

5 ) You act as if we consciously planned to replace Love (310) and Deaderick (305) with little guys like Kelly (300) and Forston (305). First, both of these players are 300 or more. Second, there was no plan to cut Love. We are still looking for a wide body. Maybe Grissom will make it (or the Practice Squad). IMHO, one of the defense's biggest weaknesses is exactly what you pointing to: not enough talented backup beef in the middle of the defensive line.

6) Just BTW, much of this depends on game plan. Some teams are running teams. Running a pass first defense would be somewhat silly, Obviously, there are many short yardage situations in a game which demands the beef.

7) And finally, we often talk about 3-4 and 4-3 as if this makes a great deal of difference. IMHO, it is 1 gap vs. 2 gap that makes the big difference. One can certainly run 3-4 and 4-3 2 gap defenses.

8) Yes, I've ignored Armstead. There is a Belichick rule that saves a lot of time. Only discuss the players who are actually available for play. We haven't a clue with regard to when Armstead will be available, when he will be able to contribute, and what role he might play.

I believe this season is the first time in the BB era that we have a defense built to stop the pass first, for years we put out a front 7 designed to stop the rush first; however in doing that we limited our ability to rush the passer in early downs. I see a number of posts about C. Jones being undersized as a 3-4 DE, or it being a waste of his talents, I disagree whole heartedly. I think this scheme is going to fit Jones perfectly, I think this scheme is finally going to take shape and evolve into the defensive power house we’ve all been wishing for over the last 6-8 years.

The key thing nto our defense and our scheme is the versatility to stand up against the rush but be dominate against the pass, much like our offense has come to the line looking one way only to end up completely different before the snap of the ball I see our defense doing something similar. Based on my amateur analysis of training camp and personnel this is what I envision.

Scheme; the goal is to be in a 3-4 front to stop the run and be capable of shifting to a 4-3 to attack the pass. The key players are of course Wilfork and Jones, their versatility is essential to the success of the defense and particularly this scheme.

Wilfork; he is the Tom Brady of this defense so he will be the player who is relied on most to determine the read of the opponents offense and shift accordingly. Wilfork will start early downs in a zero technique, should he read pass he will shift to the one technique between the LG and C therefor taking both of them on.

Jones; with the added weight and full offseason under his belt I believe he is going to be exactly the player BB wanted, a player strong enough to hold up against the run but dynamic as a pass rusher. Jones will start early downs in a five technique, and if Wilfork reads pass he will shift out to a seven technique and because Wilfork has consumed the LG and C Jones will be one on one with the LT (unless the team keeps a TE in).

Kelly/Armstead; they will play start early downs in a five technique and shift to a three technique. If either of these players can force the other team to give help on for from the C on a consistent basis, then I think Wilfork could have a career high 5-7 sacks.

Ninkovich/Collins; this is the OLB/DE position; they will toggle between the six and nine technique depending on the read

Hightower; he will play the six technique shading Jones to compensate for some of the potential run deficiency. On passing downs he will be able to drop into coverage or rush the passer from a six or nine technique, having him on the same side as Jones will be fun to watch, they will be able to stunt, swap techniques and create carious for the LT and LG.

Now as I said I’m an amateur so I could have completely misread the scheme and BB’s vision, I welcome and positive and constructive feedback. I only ask that you not make fun of me because I did give this some sincere effort and that’s what got me through grade school .

 

[Fencer]

A 2-gap system has a bit slower of an attack than a 1-gap, partly because there's more read-and-react, and partly because 2-gappers on the line are often supposed to control their blockers than attacking.

So to a first approximation, 2-gap helps against the run, at the expense of pass rush.

BB's counterweight to that in the past has been to flood the field with DBs on passing downs. But that's harder now, as teams pass more, go into more hurry-up, etc.

It now seems as if he also is making personnel choices that fit a 4-3 better than a 3-4. The tradeoff there is that in a 3-4 you have more guys at the lighter position (LB), but in a 4-3 most of the guys are lighter than in a 3-4, apples to apples. In particular, he's used several high draft picks recently on LBs who can run, and before that he used a lot of cap dollars on Thomas.

 

[Deus Irae]

This is a team with linebackers designed for the 3-4, a perfect 3-4 NT, and no real 3-4 ends, so the 4-3 and hybridization is the way to go by necessity. When BB starts drafting 230-240 lb linebackers we can really talk of a new defensive philosophy. Until then, it seems more like it's just a matter of them going with what they've got, to me.

Interestingly, the team's inability to find the sort of 3-4 ends BB prefers could well cost Spikes, a natural 3-4 ILB at the NFL level, a spot on the team next season, as the need to go with more 4-3 type fronts to cover up the lack of 3-4 DEs means that Spikes' lack of speed is often a liability even on the early downs (1st/2nd).

 

[Brady6]

The part about Vince Wilfork reading a play and changing the defense isn't realistic.

We aren't stronger pass/run by 34/43 alignment of the same personnel.
We can do everything we want out of either alignment. Each offers different means of disguise and versatility.

Great point Andy; if there was a call to be made it would likely have to come from a LB like Mayo who has the ability to read the field.

Thank you for the productive feedback my friend.

 

[Brady6]

This is a team with linebackers designed for the 3-4, a perfect 3-4 NT, and no real 3-4 ends, so the 4-3 and hybridization is the way to go by necessity. When BB starts drafting 230-240 lb linebackers we can really talk of a new defensive philosophy. Until then, it seems more like it's just a matter of them going with what they've got, to me.

Interestingly, the team's inability to find the sort of 3-4 ends BB prefers could well cost Spikes, a natural 3-4 ILB at the NFL level, a spot on the team next season, as the need to go with more 4-3 type fronts to cover up the lack of 3-4 DEs means that Spikes' lack of speed is often a liability even on the early downs (1st/2nd).

Good stuff as always DI, you've raised an excellent point pertaining to the disconnect of personnel specifically the LB being most suited for a 3-4 and the DL more suited for a 4-3 with the exception of Wilfork.

 

[Ring 6]

But the larger point is that you can't read run or pass from formation so the shifting from 34 to 43 and back at the Los seems unrealistic. Also the idea that one us stronger vs pass and the other vs run isn't true with the sane personnel.

 

[Brady6]

But the larger point is that you can't read run or pass from formation so the shifting from 34 to 43 and back at the Los seems unrealistic. Also the idea that one us stronger vs pass and the other vs run isn't true with the sane personnel.

I was thinking more in terms of technique, for stopping the run, I find in particular the Patriots seem to favor the 3-4 when looking to stop the run, based on assignments.

Can I ask why they wouldn't be able to shift or motion players pre snap in your opinion? Timing constraints? Inability to make a proper read? Both have come to mind which is why I threw this out to hear this type of feedback.

 

[Brady6]

Andy and fencer (and others) can give the you the x's and o's, but in general I'm not buying.

1) IMHO, Wilfork does not call the schemes and plays based on what he sees. That is the job of the DC and is communicated to one of the linebackers.

2) In the NFL, if you can't stop the run, it makes no difference how you do against the pass.

3) Yes, I do see last year's Jones as being undersized for 3-4 DE.

4) If we have the same personnel, with Ninko or Collins as the DE/OL the difference between 3-4 and 4-3 is very little indeed.

5 ) You act as if we consciously planned to replace Love (310) and Deaderick (305) with little guys like Kelly (300) and Forston (305). First, both of these players are 300 or more. Second, there was no plan to cut Love. We are still looking for a wide body. Maybe Grissom will make it (or the Practice Squad). IMHO, one of the defense's biggest weaknesses is exactly what you pointing to: not enough talented backup beef in the middle of the defensive line.

6) Just BTW, much of this depends on game plan. Some teams are running teams. Running a pass first defense would be somewhat silly, Obviously, there are many short yardage situations in a game which demands the beef.

7) And finally, we often talk about 3-4 and 4-3 as if this makes a great deal of difference. IMHO, it is 1 gap vs. 2 gap that makes the big difference. One can certainly run 3-4 and 4-3 2 gap defenses.

8) Yes, I've ignored Armstead. There is a Belichick rule that saves a lot of time. Only discuss the players who are actually available for play. We haven't a clue with regard to when Armstead will be available, when he will be able to contribute, and what role he might play.

Thanks for all the constructive feedback MG, appreciated as always .

 

[Ring 6]

I was thinking more in terms of technique, for stopping the run, I find in particular the Patriots seem to favor the 3-4 when looking to stop the run, based on assignments.

Can I ask why they wouldn't be able to shift or motion players pre snap in your opinion? Timing constraints? Inability to make a proper read? Both have come to mind which is why I threw this out to hear this type of feedback.

I don't agree that they favor the 34 vs the run.

Changing pre snap is pointless. First because its the same personnel and the same responsibilities. But mostly because reads don't come from formation they come from what players do after the snap.

 

[Brady6]

I don't agree that they favor the 34 vs the run.

Changing pre snap is pointless. First because its the same personnel and the same responsibilities. But mostly because reads don't come from formation they come from what players do after the snap.

Ok fair enough, my mind may be running away with things. Thanks for the feedback.

 

[pencilneckgeek]

As AJ pointed out, the key is whether they 1-gap or 2-gap. On running downs, whether lined-up in a 3-4 with Jones at 5-tech or lined-up in a 4-3 under, I would expect Kelly and Wilfork to two-gap, while Nink and Jones 1-gap. If Jones get sandwiched by a TE, he'll have Hightower at Sam to help him out. Jones has added 5-10 pounds, but he's still way undersized to 2-gap. If he were to 2-gap for a game, he'd lose the explosiveness that makes him so effective, simply from being worn down by much bigger linemen, who still typically outweigh him by 50 pounds.

Even were Armstead to show-up tomorrow, I still feel like we're thin at DT to help cover us, if Kelly or Wilfork are down for a game. I know it's wishful thinking, but I want Big Sey back.

Does Ninko have the speed to play LB in a 4-3? I'm dubious.

Gimmicks aside, you usually have to be a freak athlete to play DE and LB in the same set. Normally the guys who move from LB to DE do so because the set changes (e.g., the nickel package comes in).

Nink has played both Sam and DE. On the other hand, with Nink, Collins, and Hightower available and a thinner DL, I don't see Jones standing up much, if at all.