Is Shawn Springs our new #1 CB

Scouting Report

Assets -Excellent man defender. Can still turn, cut, and run with most receivers. Allows few plays in front of him but stays in the hip pocket on deep passes. Smart and experienced.

Flaws -Aging. Elite wideouts can beat him. Has lost some reaction quickness. Isn't as natural or instinctive in zone coverage.

Potential - Fading, effective starter

sam said:

Scouting Report

Assets -Excellent man defender. Can still turn, cut, and run with most receivers. Allows few plays in front of him but stays in the hip pocket on deep passes. Smart and experienced.

Flaws -Aging. Elite wideouts can beat him. Has lost some reaction quickness. Isn't as natural or instinctive in zone coverage.

Potential - Fading, effective starter

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This is very helpful AND hopeful, Thanx sam!

From this report he sounds like a nice 1 year bridge corner to our youngsters, baring injury of course....

I don't think we have to pigeonhole this guy into a specific role because he can and will contribute in many ways. Primarily I see him as a S 1st though because of the recent comments BB made about how the S position has evolved. Philly was looking at him as a S not a CB.

That is why he is not playing in Philly. He will be a starting corner for us. That is not pigeonholing any more than to suggest that Wilfork should play NT and we shouldn't try him as a DE.

BPF said:

I don't think we have to pigeonhole this guy into a specific role because he can and will contribute in many ways. Primarily I see him as a S 1st though because of the recent comments BB made about how the S position has evolved. Philly was looking at him as a S not a CB.

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mgteich said:

That is why he is not playing in Philly. He will be a starting corner for us. That is not pigeonholing any more than to suggest that Wilfork should play NT and we shouldn't try him as a DE.

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According to reports that is true but we'll see what happens in camp. I see what you're saying on Wilfork but he CAN'T play DE and Springs CAN play S because he's done so in the past. DB's are interchangeable in some cases and play different roles in nickel and dime sets. Don't get me wrong though I'm not saying he can't start at CB.

Wilfork COULD play DE in our scheme, but he is far too valuable inside.

Hey, Pats Fan TX or whatever your name is, just in case you're reading this: you are a total loser.

There was talk about Springs coming to Dallas...

Anyhow, my point was that ultimately, I'm RELIEVED he left the NFCE-I thought for sure Philly was going to nail him.

TommyBrady12 said:

The Redskins fans (most of them) seem have a lot of good things to say about him. THey all say he's good when healthy,

Springs Released - Page 8 - The Warpath

i feel a little better about this signing now.

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Living in DC I can say that when he is playing (which has been declining annually) his play is generally good. The problem is that he is hurt quite often and even when he is playing he often leaves games with injuries. I'm not sure he is a 16 game/every down player anymore.

One of the interesting conversations on sports radio yesterday here was talking about whether or not to bring TO to the Skins. Brian Mitchell was adamant that they should not bring him here because he saw SSprings shut him down in both game the Skins played the Boys last year. Now on one hand thats a good thing, but I'm very skeptical that he can do this game in and game out.

mmasterkillah said:

Wilfork COULD play DE in our scheme, but he is far too valuable inside.

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He has the strength but not the length to play the 5-technique.

mgteich said:

That is why he is not playing in Philly. He will be a starting corner for us. That is not pigeonholing any more than to suggest that Wilfork should play NT and we shouldn't try him as a DE.

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From Lombardi this morning, this is what I meant about Spring's versatility but I was off on the safety part. I personally think he can play safety in addition to inside and outside corner.
The National Football Post | Diner Morning News

FROM CHRISTOPHER GASPER OF THE BOSTON GLOBE… (Shawn) Springs was deemed expendable when the Redskins re-signed DeAngelo Hall to a six-year, $54-million deal. Springs also drew interest from the Eagles — he visited them Wednesday. However, the Eagles were interested in Springs as a safety. The Patriots pulled off a trade for another wide receiver yesterday, acquiring Greg Lewis and a 2010 seventh-round draft pick from the Eagles in exchange for a 2009 fifth-round draft pick, a league source said. Lewis, whose first career touchdown came in the Patriots’ 24-21 victory over the Eagles in Super Bowl XXXIX, will be expected to compete for the No. 3 wide receiver job, which opened when Jabar Gaffney left for Denver as a free agent.

Lombardi's take: The only concern with signing Shawn Springs is his ability to stay healthy all season. Last year with the ‘Skins, he played as well as any corner in the NFL, and the ‘Skins’ ability to cover was a major surprise to me. Springs is a versatile player — he can play in the slot, and he can play outside corner. He’s not a safety but more of an inside corner, and he can win those inside match-ups, which is critical for good pass defense. The Patriots are going through a change in their back seven, so getting veteran corners will allow them to focus on finding more pass rush in the draft.

condon84 said:

We play zone and do not move guys around to match up other teams' WRs. HOWEVER, other teams DO move around and match their #1 WR with Hobbs. That's all we need to know what other OCs think about Hobbs.

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Does it mean the OC knows the coverage scheme being called and knows which zone Hobbs is covering? And the OC knows he won't have help and then puts their #1WR in the correct pattern to expose Hobbs' zone?

Do the Pats tend to give less help to Hobbs side? Are there other areas of "Hobbs side" that could be exposed in the past due to holes in the safety/LB zones?

Oh wait that's right, you just watch the 1 or 2 plays you see a reception with Hobbs in the picture and then immediately add to your ever growing bias against the guy.

Yet BB continues to believe Hobbs is our best corner and a damn good thing for the Patriots...

I like Hobbs' heart and effort...but I can't lie, I'm just not comfortable with him as a starter. I really hope the Pats improve at CB this offseason. Springs could help but because of his age and health concerns, I'm skeptic.

FWIW, Springs had the best success rate of any corner in the league in 2007.

emoney_33 said:

Yet BB continues to believe Hobbs is our best corner and a damn good thing for the Patriots...

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Hobbs may have been our best corner last year, but that's not necessarily a good thing. They really didn't have a choice.

Interesting facts about the Pats 2008 pass defense:
1. They gave up an average passer rating of 89.8. That's the 10th worst of any team's pass defense in the NFL.
2. They gave up 7.3 yars per attempt. That's the 8th worst of any team's pass defense in the NFL.
3. They gave up 27 passing touchdowns. That's the 2nd worst of any team's pass defense in the NFL. (Yes even worse than the Lions).
4. They gave up a a 1st down to the pass at a rate of 37.1%. That is the 5th worst of any team's pass defense in the NFL.
5. Overall the Pats defense gave up 3rd down conversions 44% of the time. That is the 5th worst of all NFL defenses. Although we can't pin this entirely on the pass defense, since rushing downs are also calculated in this stat, that's not very impressive.

In short: Except for total yardage given up, the Pats pass defense was quite unimpressive in 2008. And Hobbs was the best cornerback on that team? That really isn't much to brag about.

Stats courtesy of NFL.com:
http://www.nfl.com/stats/categoryst...true&Submit=Go&tabSeq=2&role=OPP&d-447263-p=1

VJCPatriot said:

Hobbs may have been our best corner last year, but that's not necessarily a good thing. They really didn't have a choice.

Interesting facts about the Pats 2008 pass defense:
1. They gave up an average passer rating of 89.8. That's the 10th worst of any team's pass defense in the NFL.
2. They gave up 7.3 yars per attempt. That's the 8th worst of any team's pass defense in the NFL.
3. They gave up 27 passing touchdowns. That's the 2nd worst of any team's pass defense in the NFL.
4. They gave up a a 1st down to the pass at a rate of 37.1%. That is the 5th worst of any team's pass defense in the NFL.
5. Overall the Pats defense gave up 3rd down conversions 44% of the time. That is the 5th worst of all NFL defenses. Although we can't pin this entirely on the pass defense, since rushing downs are also calculated in this stat, that's not very impressive.

In short: Except for total yardage given up, the Pats defense was quite unimpressive in 2008. And Hobbs was the best cornerback on that team. That really isn't much to brag about.

Stats courtesy of NFL.com:
NFL Stats: by Team Category

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Well those PASS DEFENSE statistics aren't really interesting nor pertinent to the conversation. I'm fairly confident if you have even a remote understanding of the game that you understand pass defense as a whole is not indicative of any ONE player or position on the team. You can have the best CB in the history of the league on your team and still have a crappy pass defense.

You could swap out Hobbs for any CB in the NFL last year, and all else being equal we still end up with the same poor pass defense statistics. Are you seriously attempting to blame Hobbs for our lackluster pass defense?

Does the youth and inexperience of the LBs have nothing to do with it?
Does the youth and inexperience (and losing Rodney) at S have anything to do with it?
Does the revolving battle between inconsistency, injuries, youth, inexperience, learning the system at all of the other CB positions have anything to do with it?
Does the inconsistent pass rush have anything to do with it?

Nope, it's Hobbs' fault and always will be. Hell Brady's injury was even Hobbs fault somehow.

You do realize that Hobbs will be manning that RCB for a long time to come? What do you Hobbs haters think about BB and what will you think about him, when BB continues to NOT replace Hobbs? Is BB incompetent or is Hobbs better than your biased eyes think he is?

VJCPatriot said:

Hobbs may have been our best corner last year, but that's not necessarily a good thing. They really didn't have a choice.

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And when are you guys gonna stop with this ridiculous excuse? They had a CHOICE for 4 years now. BB and the Patriots do not start a player for 4 years because they "have no choice".

Do the Patriots and BB not have a proven track record in this regard? Are they not diligent, do they not plan ahead, do they not make the best decisions possible for the team?

There's nothing biased about the numbers. They are factual and can all be verified on NFL.com. Certainly a poor pass rush helps contribute to a poor pass defense. However somebody has to be back there not making the plays for such poor numbers to be produced. Even going by the eye test, the Pats pass defense was lackluster in 2008. Unless you're a stubborn homer, even you should be able to admit that.

Is it all Hobbs fault? Of course it's impossible to pin the blame on one player. The Pats secondary as a whole underachieved. The fact remains that calling Hobbs the 'best CB' on one of the worst NFL secondaries of 2008 isn't much to brag about. Oh I'm sorry, I forgot that we weren't allowed to say or think anything negative about the Pats, even though they have areas in obvious need of improvement. Sorry to let reality intrude! How about this, why don't you produce some NUMBERS to back your opinion that not only was Hobbs the Pats best CB, but he was in fact a GOOD CB by NFL standards? Can't find them? I'm waiting...

Hobbs would be an excellent #2 CB. He could probably be a #1 on a team with a consistent pass rush, something we'll hopefully have next season.

VJCPatriot said:

There's nothing biased about the numbers. They are factual and can all be verified on NFL.com. Certainly a poor pass rush helps contribute to a poor pass defense. However somebody has to be back there not making the plays for such poor numbers to be produced. Even going by the eye test, the Pats pass defense was lackluster in 2008. Unless you're a stubborn homer, even you should be able to admit that.

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It is because of people like you that stats are considered "lies". You gave factual information, fine. Your fault is attempting to analyze those statistics to fit your preconceived notions and bias against Ellis Hobbs. I never once said the Pats pass defense was amazing or even good in 2008. You however are attempting to assign blame without in depth analysis. So don't call me a stubborn homer, you are a stubborn hater with an agenda (surprise surprise). The "eye test" is the most ignorant excuse for agenda-driven drivel. Your eyes are not capable of analyzing a situation in which you have less than 5% of the total data, and the data you do have and are capable of storing in your brain is insufficient and incomplete at best.

Is it all Hobbs fault? Of course it's impossible to pin the blame on one player. The Pats secondary as a whole underachieved. The fact remains that calling Hobbs the 'best CB' on one of the worst NFL secondaries of 2008 isn't much to brag about.

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Even though the secondary is a big part of the equation, you aren't even qualified enough to properly analyze their play. I won't pretend to be able to analyze the pass defense effectively and I don't really have any inclination to do the fine research for people who will throw it away because it doens't fit their bias.

I also never "bragged" about Hobbs being the best CB on the 2008 secondary. He has been the best CB on the Patriots since he took over for Duane Starks, even when he's hurt! If we had Bailey on our team last year instead of Hobbs and someone claimed he was the best CB on the patriots last year, would you be crying "that's nothing to brag about". NO because you know (based on what others have told you) that Champ is a helluva CB and you wouldn't be able to deny that even when Champ's team had a terrible year in pass defense... see stats at bottom and ignore them or backpedal.

Oh I'm sorry, I forgot that we weren't allowed to say or think anything negative about the Pats, even though they have areas in obvious need of improvement. Sorry to let reality intrude! How about this, why don't you produce some NUMBERS to back your opinion that not only was Hobbs the Pats best CB, but he was in fact a GOOD CB by NFL standards? Can't find them? I'm waiting...

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Yea because I just sit here and defend all negatives about the Pats. I didn't, in my last post, mention the downfalls of our pass rush, LBs pass coverage, safeties etc... Quit it with the sensationalist bull**** to make yourself feel better. Reality is that Ellis Hobbs has been playing virtually ever snap at RCB for 4 years and unless BB is a moron that would indicate he is a pretty damn GOOD CB.

Now for your all important stats...

Hobbs was better than Samuel in 2007 based on success rates...
SD and Denver had bad pass defenses with elite CBs...

Answer once again why BB has played Hobbs SO MUCH for 4 years, and don't you dare say because there was no other choice.