Pass receiving seperation and the lack of it

[JoeSixPat]

Re: Pass Receiving Seperation & the Lack of It

Clearly a CJ basher with a lot of declarative statements to the point of suggesting he has no shot to ever be good in the NFL, and I think Maroney is likely to catch more than 20 passes this year. He may round off his cuts, and Jordan/Faulk are clearly superior to LoMar in terms of pass-catching, but what I saw of him as a RECEIVER last year was a WEAPON, and I hope to see them take advantage of that even more this season.

I agree the Jordan signing is about depth - not dissatisfaction with Maroney.

His overall take about separation is a good one - and while he might be a CJ basher his observations aren't exactly in conflict with what I've observed.

We know CJ has speed - yet somehow I've just yet to see him gain separation. In the past my assumption was that he was still slowed by the hamstring. Overal it doesn't matter what it is anymore - he just needs to make it happen.

Not that Jackson is a one trick pony who is meant to only go deep - but if he can't get free deep, what does he add that Gaffney doesn't?

 

[cstjohn17]

Re: Pass Receiving Seperation & the Lack of It

Give me a break. He says the guy will fail because he "can't get open". He's big. He's strong. He's fast. The getting open part is about technique and knack for finding seams in zones. That's coaching and game experience. He will get it.

I am not an expert in WR techniques but I have played a lot of other sports, mostly hockey. In hockey some guys can score, the rest of us grind, go to the net, look for rebounds or try to out effort the opponent. Those precious few are naturals.

It is a lot the same at WR, guys like Troy Brown and Wes Welker likely run a 4.7 or higher but they understand where the open areas are. With the speed Bethel Johnson had (he was even faster than Jackson) he should have been open on every play but rarely was open down field.

At this point a 4.5 Gaffney is a much better deep threat than 4.3 Jackson.

 

[TripleOption]

Re: Pass Receiving Seperation & the Lack of It

I am not an expert in WR techniques but I have played a lot of other sports, mostly hockey. In hockey some guys can score, the rest of us grind, go to the net, look for rebounds or try to out effort the opponent. Those precious few are naturals.

It is a lot the same at WR, guys like Troy Brown and Wes Welker likely run a 4.7 or higher but they understand where the open areas are. With the speed Bethel Johnson had (he was even faster than Jackson) he should have been open on every play but rarely was open down field.

At this point a 4.5 Gaffney is a much better deep threat than 4.3 Jackson.

You're missing the point. It's not a knack; it's a skill that can be taught if the player puts in the time and watches film.

Gaffney is certainly a much better 3rd and 7 receiver, but a better deep guy? That's a stretch. You named Brown and Welker, both Slot guys that are utilized underneath. Jackson is not that guy, yet.

 

[PatsFan37]

Re: Pass Receiving Seperation & the Lack of It

I am not an expert in WR techniques but I have played a lot of other sports, mostly hockey. In hockey some guys can score, the rest of us grind, go to the net, look for rebounds or try to out effort the opponent. Those precious few are naturals.

It is a lot the same at WR, guys like Troy Brown and Wes Welker likely run a 4.7 or higher but they understand where the open areas are. With the speed Bethel Johnson had (he was even faster than Jackson) he should have been open on every play but rarely was open down field.

At this point a 4.5 Gaffney is a much better deep threat than 4.3 Jackson.

You just named 2 guys, Brown and Welker, with a tremendous drive to succeed, and another guy, Gaffney, who won an offseason award. Welker, who set a record last year, who will obviously be a starter, who was coming off an injury, immediately consigned himself to extra time with the Jugs machine on his first day back.

If Jackson isn't getting separation, which is an opinion I have to accept from other people since I haven't been to camp and the &#$% TV cameras never show it, then he has to practice, practice, practice. If he doesn't get it this season (season, mind you, not pre-season) he is toast. A bust. Cut-city. It's all about practice. How come Jackson didn't win an offseason award, when the kicker did?

If he shows up when we're watching, it means he showed up when we weren't watching.

 

[MrBigglesWorth]

Re: Pass Receiving Seperation & the Lack of It

I am not an expert in WR techniques but I have played a lot of other sports, mostly hockey. In hockey some guys can score, the rest of us grind, go to the net, look for rebounds or try to out effort the opponent. Those precious few are naturals.

It is a lot the same at WR, guys like Troy Brown and Wes Welker likely run a 4.7 or higher but they understand where the open areas are. With the speed Bethel Johnson had (he was even faster than Jackson) he should have been open on every play but rarely was open down field.

At this point a 4.5 Gaffney is a much better deep threat than 4.3 Jackson.

I guarantee in a 10 or 20 yard dash that Welker beats CJ. CJ might be faster in a 40 yard dash.

I find it baffling there is a debate over a deep threat going on since that didn't help the Pats in the Superbowl and Brady didn't have enough time and was getting hammered. They finally had soome production when they went to Welker on short routes.

 

[PatsFan37]

Re: Pass Receiving Seperation & the Lack of It

I agree the Jordan signing is about depth - not dissatisfaction with Maroney.

These are not mutually exclusive. I don't think they're dissatisfied with Maroney, but Jordan was an opportunity to make the team better, not mere depth. They've always coveted Jordan and they jumped on him the moment he was released. He's a short, thick, bowling ball runner who can plunge into the line or can catch the ball. What's not to like (besides his blitz pickup?).

 

[Metaphors]

Re: Pass Receiving Seperation & the Lack of It

I am not an expert in WR techniques but I have played a lot of other sports, mostly hockey. In hockey some guys can score, the rest of us grind, go to the net, look for rebounds or try to out effort the opponent. Those precious few are naturals.

It is a lot the same at WR, guys like Troy Brown and Wes Welker likely run a 4.7 or higher but they understand where the open areas are. With the speed Bethel Johnson had (he was even faster than Jackson) he should have been open on every play but rarely was open down field.

At this point a 4.5 Gaffney is a much better deep threat than 4.3 Jackson.

This is just getting tiresome. For anyone that wants to make a statement about CJack's abilities, how about we try a novel idea...actually look at him playing in actual NFL game situations? While 2007 was lost due to ACL recovery, he actually played in 2006. And he did have 3 TDs so you can still see him in highlights on nfl.com for those games. For those unwilling or unable to do that, here is what you would see:

9/17 at NYJ - Ran a drag route across the back of the end zone and caught a TD accelerating away from coverage (looks like zone but can't tell for sure).

10/22 at Bills - Ran a nice corner route, accelerated behind the Buffalo zone coverage and caught a medium-deep TD before the safety help could arrive.

10/30 at Vikings - Took a quick/short out pass, made a quick move back inside (making the DB miss a tackle) and fought his way through tackles into the end zone.

So in actual NFL regular season game situations, he has demonstrated a lot of the things he is criticized for not being able to do. That doesn't mean CJack is beyond criticism and that the observations that he has trouble separating (especially against soft man coverage) are incorrect. Just that saying that CJack is incapable of doing things he has already done in games seems a little misguided.

 

[Rob0729]

Re: Pass Receiving Seperation & the Lack of It

You're criticizing someone who claimed he was at at least TWO sessions, not one.

Plus this observation from Mr Bigglesworth who was there Thursday...
"i was at last thiursday's morning practice and noticed CJ couldn't separate even in the end zone with one on one coverage. he doesn't even use his size to shield db's."

The specific separation issue in the LB drill is lack of separation short range over the middle, which you seem to assume CJ has, NOT downfield. CJ never ran routes downfield when I and the Piscine one were there. I think BB knows the kid is fast and wants him to work at the other routes in camp to see if he can bcome a complete NFL WR, not Bethel II.

It's ironic that detailed, repeated observations are discredited simply because it contradicts folks' mental picture of the player.

Oh, it was two sessions. Completely different. Of course you can tell what type of player he is going to be based on two practice sessions. Basing it on one practice session is silly, but two sessions are rock solid evidence.

The fact of the matter is I don't judge anything based on training camp. Anyone who comes to conclusions on players based soley on training camp whether it is one practice, two practices, or the entire session, doesn't really understand football.

Funny though, the description of the training camp practice pretty much described what my "mental picture" of Chad Jackson is. So apparently I am trying to discredit him/her for validating my opinions. I have never thought Jackson was a deep threat and could be a dangerous weapon over the middle of the field if he ever lives up to his potential. I am also not sure that Jackson would ever live up to that potential. I just don't think it is a bad thing that he is not a deep threat because I never thought he was a deep threat.

BTW, Dookfish said in his post:

Chad Jackson could not separate from the defensive backs on the outside or deep.

I don't see where Dookfish said anything about not getting separation over the middle. Besides, you typically don't get separation on an over the middle route. The best you can usually hope for is a step or maybe two.

 

[Rob0729]

Re: Pass Receiving Seperation & the Lack of It

As one who attended camp and has read all the camp threads I don't see the contradictions. I was at one of the same camps and reported that chad caught everything thrown at him however, I was NOT isolating on him watching his routes the DookFish specificly was doing so. Amazing how folks reject data that contradicts their worldviews.

I am not rejecting data. I am saying data is inconclusive. I don't have an opinion either way on Jackson, but hope he comes through. I just don't get overly excited either way about training camp. I still say it is a 50-50 shot that the guy ever turns into a good draft selection.

You won't hear me jumping up and down for joy either when Mayo gets praises for his training camp performance either eventhough I think I am going to be a huge fan of his. All I have ever said about the guy is that Bruschi praised him for coming into camp knowing what he was doing. Otherwise, I haven't joined any discussion on him.

Every summer I hear other teams in this division brag about players who are studs in training camp. Remember when everyone in Miami (including the media) bragged about how Culpepper had a miracle recovery and was 100% and better than ever in training camp a few years back. More times than not, their training camp studs turn into regular season duds. I don't think the Pats fans should fall into that same stupidity either by praising or condemning a player based on training camp.

Training camp is a tool to get players prepared for the regular season. Sometimes coaches ask players to do different things that might be outside their comfort zone or skill sets to prepare them or see their limits. Unless you attend every training camp practice, you really don't get a good idea of a player's progress and even then you really don't know what he can or can't do until he gets on the field.

 

[Dragda]

I think it isn't the end of the world if Gaffney lives up to his potential while Chad Jackson gets cut. We've never been all that great at drafting WRs since BB came to town. Another whiff. Move on. Gaffney was drafted with as high of expectations as Gaffney. He was just drafted by Houston. Gaffney took hold of his second chance. Maybe Jackson will, too. For another team.

We don't need him.

 

[Rob0729]

I think it isn't the end of the world if Gaffney lives up to his potential while Chad Jackson gets cut. We've never been all that great at drafting WRs since BB came to town. Another whiff. Move on. Gaffney was drafted with as high of expectations as Gaffney. He was just drafted by Houston. Gaffney took hold of his second chance. Maybe Jackson will, too. For another team.

We don't need him.

Well, Jackson will most likely be on this team this year. If we could put up with Bethel Johnson for three years, they will give Jackson the third year. At least Jackson has the injury excuse for not contributing.

As for Gaffney, Gaffney is independent of Jackson anyway. I hope they both live up to their potential.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Re: Pass Receiving Seperation & the Lack of It

You're missing the point. It's not a knack; it's a skill that can be taught if the player puts in the time and watches film.

I am not at all certain that such a 'skill' can typically just be taught. CBs need certain natural abilities to turn from facing forward towards the receiver to full speed downfield. Tebucky Jones for example despite his natural speed could not make that transition move smoothly and could not play CB. There are similar skills for different skilled positions, WR in this case. While every player can make improvements from study and drill they are always limited by talent. Not every 5'9" fast rugged guy who plays football can play slot receiver like a Welker or Brown. The basic innate skills to geting separation need to be there. Hard work then develops that potential to the point of beating equally skilled NFL CBs. If you look at the NFL, its littered with WR candidates with incredible personal physical and college stats that no matter how hard they try can't play in the NFL.

In this specific case we're looking at a guy who has not had a lot of time on the field in the last few years. It will be interesting to see how several more weeks of intense training and experience develops any innate skills. I am confident that the Pats coaches know each players' shortcomings and have specific detailed programs for each player to develop their potential. Some will improve with time, others have already hit their ceiling.

 

[cstjohn17]

Re: Pass Receiving Seperation & the Lack of It

This is just getting tiresome.

Agreed, I now consider Chad Jackson in the same category as Spygate, Brett Favre and Bledsoe versus Brady. These are items I hope to never ever talk, see or discuss again.

 

[TripleOption]

Re: Pass Receiving Seperation & the Lack of It

I am not at all certain that such a 'skill' can typically just be taught. CBs need certain natural abilities to turn from facing forward towards the receiver to full speed downfield. Tebucky Jones for example despite his natural speed could not make that transition move smoothly and could not play CB. There are similar skills for different skilled positions, WR in this case.

That's a bad analogy. Corners need "fluid hips". WR's can be much more stiff. Jackson has the physical tools, it's the little things. A stutter step, using the hands, eyes, head. It's film and hard work and game experience. Think back to Randy Moss, a freakish talent to be sure, but without Cris Carter I don't think he becomes anywhere near is great as he is now. Randy would probably be the first guy to admit it. Cris mentored Randy, and Chad needs the same treatment.

The league is full of guys that were on the trash heap but resurrected their careers with hard work. You need only look at Jabar Gaffney, a street free agent who was given another chance.

 

[mgteich]

Re: Pass Receiving Seperation & the Lack of It

If you are going to build a team with no provision for injuries, why not go for two or even one QB. We cannot, will not, and have never started the season with two TE's. We might if we had one on the PUP list and picked up a street TE in Week 2.

Injuries aside, that's precisely what will happen.
Jordan - backs up 2 styles of RB Faulk and Morris; cannot cut this versitile guy
Evans - unique @ FB and a strong ST contributor
Aiken - ST demon who may actually displace my man Larry Izzo on STs; last resort WR backup

The aforementioned TEs are too one dimensional

P.S. Sorry for the bad Title spelling

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Re: Pass Receiving Seperation & the Lack of It

That's a bad analogy. Corners need "fluid hips". WR's can be much more stiff. Jackson has the physical tools, it's the little things. A stutter step, using the hands, eyes, head. It's film and hard work and game experience. Think back to Randy Moss, a freakish talent to be sure, but without Cris Carter I don't think he becomes anywhere near is great as he is now. Randy would probably be the first guy to admit it. Cris mentored Randy, and Chad needs the same treatment.

The league is full of guys that were on the trash heap but resurrected their careers with hard work. You need only look at Jabar Gaffney, a street free agent who was given another chance.

You're missing the point. NFL WRs need inate skills too. The footwork ability to change direction quickly and deceptively is not a given even when guys have 4.3 speed. skills can be improved and matured but there has to be an innate level far above the Div I college norm to start with.

 

[Keegs]

Re: Pass Receiving Seperation & the Lack of It

Is there a reason Patriots fans actively root against Jackson?

I don't know of anyone rooting against him...

But i do remember one dude on here saying that he was going to make the hall of fame after his TD catch against the Jets.

He's unreliable and hasn't done a damn thing in this league.

He has the greatest QB ever and the best coach ever and the opportunity to play opposite the most athletic receiver ever and he doesn't look so hot right now.

My vote is that this guy sucks royally.
go ahead and write it down and come back later and make me look like a fool for saying it... I would love it if he proved me wrong.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Re: Pass Receiving Seperation & the Lack of It

If you are going to build a team with no provision for injuries, why not go for two or even one QB. We cannot, will not, and have never started the season with two TE's. We might if we had one on the PUP list and picked up a street TE in Week 2.

If you are talking pure numbers, then yes, I'm sure all of us would like to see 3 TE on the 53. The trouble I keep running into when I start trying to pencil together a 53-man roster, who offers better value to the team?

If you try to tell me aging one dimensional TE Marcus Pollard offers more value than say an extra RB/FB, I'd say we differ. If we took three TE, right now I'd say Spach is the #3 man for his blocking. You could also make an argument for using Britt or O'Cal or Hochstein as blocking TE, and send Jordan or Evans out on TE routes in the passing game. That makes Jordan and Evans slightly better values than Spach as I read the current tea leaves.

You have fun with this each year, allow PWP and myself to differ on the TE numbers. Can't hurt anything but our massive footsahball egos.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Re: Pass Receiving Seperation & the Lack of It

...go ahead and write it down and come back later and make me look like a fool for saying it... I would love it if he proved me wrong.

You've been a naughty little masochist since day one!

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Re: Pass Receiving Seperation & the Lack of It

If you are talking pure numbers, then yes, I'm sure all of us would like to see 3 TE on the 53. The trouble I keep running into when I start trying to pencil together a 53-man roster, who offers better value to the team?

If you try to tell me aging one dimensional TE Marcus Pollard offers more value than say an extra RB/FB, I'd say we differ. If we took three TE, right now I'd say Spach is the #3 man for his blocking. You could also make an argument for using Britt or O'Cal or Hochstein as blocking TE, and send Jordan or Evans out on TE routes in the passing game. That makes Jordan and Evans slightly better values than Spach as I read the current tea leaves.

You have fun with this each year, allow PWP and myself to differ on the TE numbers. Can't hurt anything but our massive footsahball egos.

The hardest thing to factor in on depth considerations and the last of the 53 players decision even beyond the PS is the Shadow Roster. I'm sure that BB 'bets' on certain guys at certain positions being available when depth erodes via injury. Sometimes he loses that bet when they sign elsewhere.