Pass receiving seperation and the lack of it

[PatsWickedPissah]

Re: Pass Receiving Seperation & the Lack of It

All due respect to Dookfish, one practice doesn't a camp or career make. Dookie is drawing a lot of conclusions on players based on one practice. Who knows if Maroney or Jackson were just having bad practices. Dookie did a good job breaking down what he/she saw, but took a little too much of a leap to say what happened in one practice defines the players.

As for Jackson, I never thought he was a deep threat to begin with. Why does he have to be? Isn't that what Moss is for. If Jackson can do consistently what he did in limited action over the middle of the field his rookie year, he is going to be a really good player.

I still don't get why people seem to think the Patriots absolutely need two or three deep threats. Prior to Moss, Brady has never actually had a deep threat to throw to. Branch and Givens did very well here and both were more like the player Dookie describes of Jackson (quick, great hands, good over the middle, but has problem getting separation down the field) than Moss ever was. If Jackson can fill in the Branch roll of the quick WR who can get the fast pass over the middle and get YAC, he was well worth his second round selection.

You're criticizing someone who claimed he was at at least TWO sessions, not one.

Plus this observation from Mr Bigglesworth who was there Thursday...
"i was at last thiursday's morning practice and noticed CJ couldn't separate even in the end zone with one on one coverage. he doesn't even use his size to shield db's."

The specific separation issue in the LB drill is lack of separation short range over the middle, which you seem to assume CJ has, NOT downfield. CJ never ran routes downfield when I and the Piscine one were there. I think BB knows the kid is fast and wants him to work at the other routes in camp to see if he can bcome a complete NFL WR, not Bethel II.

It's ironic that detailed, repeated observations are discredited simply because it contradicts folks' mental picture of the player.

 

[MrBigglesWorth]

Re: Pass Receiving Seperation & the Lack of It

All due respect to Dookfish, one practice doesn't a camp or career make. Dookie is drawing a lot of conclusions on players based on one practice. Who knows if Maroney or Jackson were just having bad practices. Dookie did a good job breaking down what he/she saw, but took a little too much of a leap to say what happened in one practice defines the players.

As for Jackson, I never thought he was a deep threat to begin with. Why does he have to be? Isn't that what Moss is for. If Jackson can do consistently what he did in limited action over the middle of the field his rookie year, he is going to be a really good player.

I still don't get why people seem to think the Patriots absolutely need two or three deep threats. Prior to Moss, Brady has never actually had a deep threat to throw to. Branch and Givens did very well here and both were more like the player Dookie describes of Jackson (quick, great hands, good over the middle, but has problem getting separation down the field) than Moss ever was. If Jackson can fill in the Branch roll of the quick WR who can get the fast pass over the middle and get YAC, he was well worth his second round selection.

I hope CJ or his friends never read these boards. What has CJ really done since he's been with the Pats?

If he gets a couple games in a row with 2-3 catches that will be a start. If he gets 4-5 I'd say we're on the road to legit productivity.

These next 4 games are very crucial for CJ. No injuries, I'm sure he'll get a bunch of snaps and even with the first unit.

Now is his time, if there is any time.

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: Pass Receiving Seperation & the Lack of It

You're criticizing someone who claimed he was at at least TWO sessions, not one.

Plus this observation from Mr Bigglesworth who was there Thursday...
"i was at last thiursday's morning practice and noticed CJ couldn't separate even in the end zone with one on one coverage. he doesn't even use his size to shield db's."

The specific separation issue in the LB drill is lack of separation short range over the middle, which you seem to assume CJ has, NOT downfield. CJ never ran routes downfield when I and the Piscine one were there. I think BB knows the kid is fast and wants him to work at the other routes in camp to see if he can bcome a complete NFL WR, not Bethel II.

It's ironic that detailed, repeated observations are discredited simply because it contradicts folks' mental picture of the player.

To be fair, it's also contradicted the reports of others. Reading the reports on Jackson seems to lead one to believe that he's had some good practices and bad, which is not surprising for an inexperienced young player coming back from injury. Either that or everyone is looking at the same practices and coming to different conclusions. Following Jackson's camp will continue to be interesting, either way.

 

[Patslifer]

Re: Pass Receiving Seperation & the Lack of It

Funny to see all the C Jack excuse makers getting upset, because the Dook had a few things to say about Chad - that did not fit their pom-pom, homer - driven, criteria!

These are the same guys who see a player that looks like a physical speciman, and think he is going to be a HOF player instantly..... the same guys that are all about 40 times, and combine stats! Jackson has made a case for the things Dook saw in his review, not the latter. Someone call me when Jackson does something - anything!

 

[Raffy15]

Re: Pass Receiving Seperation & the Lack of It

has dookfish ever heard of the space bar? its a big block of text!

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Re: Pass Receiving Seperation & the Lack of It

To be fair, it's also contradicted the reports of others. Reading the reports on Jackson seems to lead one to believe that he's had some good practices and bad, which is not surprising for an inexperienced young player coming back from injury. Either that or everyone is looking at the same practices and coming to different conclusions. Following Jackson's camp will continue to be interesting, either way.

As one who attended camp and has read all the camp threads I don't see the contradictions. I was at one of the same camps and reported that chad caught everything thrown at him however, I was NOT isolating on him watching his routes the DookFish specificly was doing so. Amazing how folks reject data that contradicts their worldviews.

 

[dhamz]

Re: Pass Receiving Seperation & the Lack of It

Dookfish would have been more popular in his surroundings cursing the pope during Sunday mass at the Vatican than saying anything bad about Chad Jackson on Patsfans.com.

 

[bradmahn]

Re: Pass Receiving Seperation & the Lack of It

Is there a reason Patriots fans actively root against Jackson?

 

[Metaphors]

Re: Pass Receiving Seperation & the Lack of It

He (Jackson) will fail in the NFL not because he is immature, oft-injured or can't understand the playbook. He will fail because for all his speed and musclature, he cannot gain separation on a consistant basis.

"Fail in the NFL"? Dude is 23 and this is his first healthy off-season. The observations are fine. The conclusions are a stretch and even harsh.

 

[Lampshade]

Re: Pass Receiving Seperation & the Lack of It

Is there a reason Patriots fans actively root against Jackson?

Rooting for a 3rd year oft-injured WR means you are soft and fanboyish, rooting for a 3rd year oft-injured TE means you are tough, and have possibly played football in the snow.

 

[dhamz]

Re: Pass Receiving Seperation & the Lack of It

Is there a reason Patriots fans actively root against Jackson?

I don't see many if any fans rooting against the guy. There are certainly people who don't think he is going to work out. There are others (count me among them) who find his popularity on this board which rivals the stars of the team ridiculous.

 

[captain stone]

Re: Pass Receiving Seperation & the Lack of It

"Fail in the NFL"? Dude is 23 and this is his first healthy off-season. The observations are fine. The conclusions are a stretch and even harsh.

The FO once laughably claimed that Cedric Cobbs had "vision you can't teach"; perhaps CJ has separation skills you can't teach (him).

The well-over-drafted Bethel Johnson was traded during his 4th TC; next year will be CJ's 4th TC. It's use it or lose it time, Chad; don't leave us all hanging.

 

[PATSNUTme]

I really enjoy getting all these observations from TC from different people. We have yet to see these players in a pre-season game so there is a long way to go in determining who is hot and who is not.

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: Pass Receiving Seperation & the Lack of It

As one who attended camp and has read all the camp threads I don't see the contradictions. I was at one of the same camps and reported that chad caught everything thrown at him however, I was NOT isolating on him watching his routes the DookFish specificly was doing so. Amazing how folks reject data that contradicts their worldviews.

I mentioned that there were other observers who came to different conclusions. That is not a rejection of any data, it's an observation that others have viewed the 'data' differently. Frankly, whether Jackson fails or succeeds is of little import in the grand scheme of things. The team currently has confidence in its top 3 receivers, so Jackson is gravy. If he works out, it's an upgrade to the position. If he doesn't work out, the team has years to rectify the problem, and there will likely be receivers on the market either this season or next who could step in as a #4 receiver even should Jackson completely bust.

 

[MrBigglesWorth]

I really enjoy getting all these observations from TC from different people. We have yet to see these players in a pre-season game so there is a long way to go in determining who is hot and who is not.

here's Perillo's observation today:

Who’s not: Chad Jackson – If this camp is indeed make or break for Jackson, things aren’t looking good for the third-year wideout. He continues to struggle catching the ball, dropping a perfect pass during a situational drill at the end of practice, and later dropping another while running with it as a kick returner. He also seems to be out of position at times while running his routes.

but let's wait a couple preseason games and see what happens. i think his confidence has to be shaky. they should simplify the offense for him

 

[Deus Irae]

Mr. Bigglesworth's post makes my point for me, PWP. Notice how it was written up in that account and compare it to this one:

** The session was not a particularly crisp one for the offense, with at least a dozen passes dropped, by everyone from Randy Moss to Wes Welker to Chris Dunlap.

Same practice; different way of interpreting the data.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Mr. Bigglesworth's post makes my point for me, PWP. Notice how it was written up in that account and compare it to this one:

Same practice; different way of interpreting the data.

Disengenuous and misleading at best. You seem to be ignoring the actual data, specific instances cited by BOTH Perillo AND Guregian (see her blog) who specificly said that a certain player who apparently can do no wrong droped several passes and seemed out of position. Other players (e.g. Watson) droping passes as well is irrelevant in this instance.

Put me in the camp of those concerned, but now waiting for the next step, actual preseason game performance, hopefully not against the 3rd string opponents though. Summer camp is young. The smart players will improve. Those not so smart, missing innate football ability or lacking the proper attitude will not. Game 1 is only days away.

 

[Deus Irae]

Disengenuous and misleading at best. You seem to be ignoring the actual data, specific instances cited by BOTH Perillo AND Guregian (see her blog) who specificly said that a certain player who apparently can do no wrong droped several passes and seemed out of position. Other players (e.g. Watson) droping passes as well is irrelevant in this instance.

Put me in the camp of those concerned, but now waiting for the next step, actual preseason game performance, hopefully not against the 3rd string opponents though. Summer camp is young. The smart players will improve. Those not so smart, missing innate football ability or lacking the proper attitude will not. Game 1 is only days away.

My whole point was about there being different takes. You cite to different takes to claim my different takes are 'misleading'? That's just ridiculous. Let's try again.....

DIFFERENT TAKES on the same events. Whether Young, or Reiss, or Dookfish, or Bob the janitor has seen Jackson struggle or excel, the fact is that there have been different takes on what he's done, and some have been more negative than others.

However, talking about misleading..... you pointed to Guregian, so let's look at what she wrote:

RECEIVER DROPSIES: This was by no means a crisp practice, particularly from the offensive side of the ball. Welker, Chad Jackson, Ben Watson, Sam Aiken, and C.J. Jones all dropped multiple passes. Even Randy Moss had one slip through his hands

And Perillo, towards the bottom of his post:

The receivers had their worst day of the summer, dropping at least a dozen passes during the workout. Benjamin Watson, C.J. Jones, Chad Jackson and even Randy Moss were among the offenders. …

In other words, a bad practice all around for the receivers is being used as an excuse to criticize Jackson individually. I'm not ignoring the data. You're just cherry picking from it.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

here's Perillo's observation today:



but let's wait a couple preseason games and see what happens. i think his confidence has to be shaky. they should simplify the offense for him

Excellent post, I have always thought Jackson's problems were caused more by his inability to run option routes correctly, than by physical problems.

Maybe we can trade Jackson to Jacksonville to a second or third rounder.

 

[TripleOption]

Re: Pass Receiving Seperation & the Lack of It

Bummer news about Chad Jackson, I really hoped he'd catch on this season.

Give me a break. He says the guy will fail because he "can't get open". He's big. He's strong. He's fast. The getting open part is about technique and knack for finding seams in zones. That's coaching and game experience. He will get it.

The whole "getting open is a mystical power" theme is BS. IF he was slow and small, he would be done. He's not. He's got the tools, he just needs the knowledge and coaching to get it done. He's a 3rd year WR with about a few months of actual experience.

Dookfish is overly dramatic.