Joe Montana to Steve Young II?

[Brady6]

I think people forget that Matt Cassel threw for 400 yards + 3 touchdowns and 415 yards + 3 touchdowns in back to back weeks against the Jets and Dolphins back in 2008. Cassel didn't have the benefit of an entire training camp and preseason to prepare to be a starter either.

Jimmy has been terrific no doubt but there is a difference between throwing for a ton of yards and winning AFCCGs and SBs. Romo has made a career out of having great stats.

 

[letekro]

I think people forget that Matt Cassel threw for 400 yards + 3 touchdowns and 415 yards + 3 touchdowns in back to back weeks against the Jets and Dolphins back in 2008. Cassel didn't have the benefit of an entire training camp and preseason to prepare to be a starter either.

Jimmy has been terrific no doubt but there is a difference between throwing for a ton of yards and winning AFCCGs and SBs. Romo has made a career out of having great stats.

Cassell showed little of the talent or skill that Garappolo has. Still, because the Patriots coaching and surrounding personnel was so good, he did well. Grop will also benefit from these external factors, and he is starting from a much better platform of skill, talent, and experience than Cassell. Works the same for Brady, btw. When Brady is surrounded by elite talent, he looks elite. When he is not, he looks less than elite. Have we forgotten how diminished he looks when either Edelman or Gronk are out (God forbid both)? I'm sure the TB12 fanboys have.

By your logic, Brady should just play until the wheels fall off. Otherwise, how is Grop going to be able to "prove" that he can win a SB? That's a chicken or egg problem that has no solution. Thankfully, this kind of thinking is alien at Patriot Place.

 

[letekro]

Tom Brady

I'm no expert at reading these things, but it seems like they could cut him before the start of "the league year" next year and have a dead money hit of only $14 million. That is totally doable, if I am reading this correctly. And I still think I am correct that nothing is guaranteed past this year.

 

[Brady6]

Cassell showed little of the talent or skill that Garappolo has. Still, because the Patriots coaching and surrounding personnel was so good, he did well. Grop will also benefit from these external factors, and he is starting from a much better platform of skill, talent, and experience than Cassell. Works the same for Brady, btw. When Brady is surrounded by elite talent, he looks elite. When he is not, he looks less than elite. Have we forgotten how diminished he looks when either Edelman or Gronk are out (God forbid both)? I'm sure the TB12 fanboys have.

By your logic, Brady should just play until the wheels fall off. Otherwise, how is Grop going to be able to "prove" that he can win a SB? That's a chicken or egg problem that has no solution. Thankfully, this kind of thinking is alien at Patriot Place.

Well we will almost certainly be able to surround Garoppolo with elite talent with Brady's dead money of $27M in 2017 and $14M in 2018.

I think Patriots Place understands the NFL salary cap which clearly you don't.

 

[letekro]

Well we will almost certainly be able to surround Garoppolo with elite talent with Brady's dead money of $27M in 2017 and $14M in 2018.

I think Patriots Place understands the NFL salary cap which clearly you don't.

The $27M is a huge problem if true. Can you explain why it is true? Don't they have the option to spread next year's dead money over 2017 and 2018 (so it is roughly $14m per?).

 

[Kontradiction]

This thread is seriously exhausting to read.

This is still nothing on the "Trade Brady" thread when Cassel played. And that thread was only a little more brain dead than this one.

 

[IllegalContact]

I think people forget that Matt Cassel threw for 400 yards + 3 touchdowns and 415 yards + 3 touchdowns in back to back weeks against the Jets and Dolphins back in 2008. Cassel didn't have the benefit of an entire training camp and preseason to prepare to be a starter either.

Jimmy has been terrific no doubt but there is a difference between throwing for a ton of yards and winning AFCCGs and SBs. Romo has made a career out of having great stats.

that was certainly the apex.....he followed it up by getting destroyed by the steelers

Cassell looked pretty good at times.......at others he looked as bad as anyone I have ever seen

 

[bigballas]

Remember when RG3 was going revolutionize the NFL and was unstoppable :

RGIII the most impressive rookie QB debut winner ever?

sample size folks. garropolo showed promise but a lot of his play was designed to succeed. granted he made some good decisions but winning in sept isnt anywhere the same as winning in nov - feb year in and year out.

this may be one of the most knee-jerk reaction threads we've had and we've had a lot

lets enjoy what we have, we have a GOAT QB that isnt getting cut, we have the GOAT coaching/coaching team. end thread

 

[Gronk]

The $27M is a huge problem if true. Can you explain why it is true? Don't they have the option to spread next year's dead money over 2017 and 2018 (so it is roughly $14m per?).

If they cut or trade him the bonus/guaranteed amount accelerates to that years cap. That's $40m right now, $27m next year, or $14m in 2018. No they can't spread it, but I suppose it's worth noting that 2018 would be the first year that there's a net 'savings' on the cap if they moved him.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

Or Jimmy resigns for a team friendly deal knowing he will be the starter...

Brady isn't playing through 2019 imo anyways.

Yesterday reminds us why JG should not sign for anything more than he can command on the open market. Injury can end a career on the practice field, let alone with a body slam sack in a regular season game. This should be his chance to sign a big contract. He should take it.

We have no way of knowing how much longer Brady is going to be able to play at an elite level. Could be two or three years. Could be one year. Could be ?

 

[letekro]

If they cut or trade him the bonus/guaranteed amount accelerates to that years cap. That's $40m right now, $27m next year, or $14m in 2018. No they can't spread it, but I suppose it's worth noting that 2018 would be the first year that there's a net 'savings' on the cap if they moved him.

I read below that Brady's guaranteed money is $28 million, not $40 million. and There is some "post-June 1" designation they can make to reduce his dead money hit to $14 million in 2017. It also says his contract is not fully guaranteed for 2016 or 2017.

Tom Brady

 

[PatsFanSince74]

...

Meanwhile, Garoppolo has as many serious injuries through 6 quarters of his career as Brady has through 16 years.

I understand the spirit of that comment...it's reasonable to worry whether Garoppolo is another QB with great talent and eternal potential, but prone to injury. It could be random or it could be "a sign."

But, we can't draw the conclusion you draw because we don't know (as of 9:50 this morning) the extent of the injury to Garoppolo...is it a season-ender, as your post implies, or a one or two game event?

 

[Brady6]

The $27M is a huge problem if true. Can you explain why it is true? Don't they have the option to spread next year's dead money over 2017 and 2018 (so it is roughly $14m per?).

Do you realize every WR on our team doesn't cost $14M against the cap?

I know that Brady is not going to play forever, I am not a fanboy as you say, I just find it fascinating that a QB who went down with an injury 6 quarters into his time as a starter inspires enough confidence in you that you want to franchise him and trade Brady.

 

[Tony2046]

This thread is getting dumber and dumber.

Cassell's skill sets < Garoppolo's ???? Whoof!! Talking about pulling a bunch of straw man **** right out of your ass. Too funny actually.

How about comparing Garoppolo's skill sets to ... hmmm.... I don't know .... uh ... Tom Brady's??

"Trade Brady to another team for two first round picks which is possible because he'll make them SB contenders"??? How about we keep Brady and make our team the SB contender??

Derrr Hyuck hyuck hyuck

"Plan for the future?" What's your plan? Winning SB's or pocketing first round picks?

What's my plan? I plan to trade JG for a first round pick and hope to sign a top 3 type QB ....... wait...... holy bologna Batman..... we already have one on the roster.

What to do with that first round pick? O line?

If the Deliverance was a thread it would be this thread.

Cue the dueling banjos.

 

[Gronk]

I read below that Brady's guaranteed money is $28 million, not $40 million. and There is some "post-June 1" designation they can make to reduce his dead money hit to $14 million in 2017. It also says his contract is not fully guaranteed for 2016 or 2017.

Tom Brady

Read all the way to the right on that chart for dead money costs. It's $28m of new guaranteed money in the recent extension - there was $12m of unapplied guaranteed bonus money still left on his previous deal (so, +$28m=$40m....with the remaining amount over $40m being the relatively negligible amount they reduced his "salary" to for 2016). The $40m is somewhat irrelevant because he's certainly not getting cut or traded this season, but that is what it would be if he were.

The base salaries are not guaranteed (this is just generally true of NFL contracts), the signing bonus money always must be paid and accounted for by the team.

Here's a different version that charts the cut pre-June 1 vs. post-June 1 vs. trade money designations for you as well:
Tom Brady Contract Details, Salary Cap Charges, Bonus Money | Over The Cap

 

[letekro]

Read all the way to the right on that chart for dead money costs. It's $28m of new guaranteed money in the recent extension - there was $12m of unapplied guaranteed bonus money still left on his previous deal (so, +$28m=$40m....with the remaining amount over $40m being the relatively negligible amount they reduced his "salary" to for 2016). The $40m is somewhat irrelevant because he's certainly not getting cut or traded this season, but that is what it would be if he were.

The base salaries are not guaranteed (this is just generally true of NFL contracts), the signing bonus money always must be paid and accounted for by the team.

Here's a different version that charts the cut pre-June 1 vs. post-June 1 vs. trade money designations for you as well:
Tom Brady Contract Details, Salary Cap Charges, Bonus Money | Over The Cap

Thanks. But the website you provide seems to support what I'm saying. If you put in "post june 1 cut", you get dead money of $13M in 2017, $7M in 2018 and $7M in 2019. That's totally doable. Am I doing something wrong?

 

[letekro]

I would be curious why people think Cassell was good here but fell off the map after he switched teams, even as he gained more and more experience.

I'm also curious why people won't acknowledge how ordinary the Patriots offense is under Brady when one of Edelman or Gronk is out of the lineup.

My assumption is that people overvalue the player and undervalue the thing that I think is responsible for 90% of the Patriots' success: "the System". Never mind what I believe, if there is one lesson that you all should have learned by now, it's that the PATRIOTS believe that the System is far more important than the Player.

Brady is very good but he is a cog in a machine that is tuned to run at peak efficiency by the mad scientist at the nobs and his brilliant understudies. When a guy has the skills and demeanor to fit within that system, which Grop obviously has, you plug him in for the next 15 years and let the old guy go.

We will see who is right.

 

[heavyde050]

I would be curious why people think Cassell was good here but fell off the map after he switched teams, even as he gained more and more experience.

I'm also curious why people won't acknowledge how ordinary the Patriots offense is under Brady when one of Edelman or Gronk is out of the lineup.

My assumption is that people overvalue the player and undervalue the thing that I think is responsible for 90% of the Patriots' success: "the System". Never mind what I believe, if there is one lesson that you all should have learned by now, it's that the PATRIOTS believe that the System is far more important than the Player.

Brady is very good but he is a cog in a machine that is tuned to run at peak efficiency by the mad scientist at the nobs and his brilliant understudies. When a guy has the skills and demeanor to fit within that system, which Grop obviously has, you plug him in for the next 15 years and let the old guy go.

We will see who is right.

I can't believe you are inferring that Brady is a "system QB", albeit a good one. How good was BB's system in Cleveland. How well did Josh McD do when he was a HC or OC for another team? How did Charlie Weiss do when he left NE?
I think people are quick to forget and/or minimize how great Tom Brady truly is.
I have never seen Tom Brady look ordinary over the course of the season. The ordinary offense comment comes from the fact that occasionally the Pats play great teams and the Pats don't have their full complement of weapons. It makes the game more difficult. I have seen TB12 have bad games, but overall he is played at an elite level for the last several years.
Based on last night's games, is someone going to post here that Jimmy G is now better than Aaron Rodgers. Rodgers played awful last night (even worse than ordinary) and has his full complement of weapons. And if not for poor officiating and luck, he would have had two more turnovers and one less rushing TD.
Can we just please enjoy the Pats being 2-0, having arguably one of the best QBs of all time coming back in two weeks and one great backup and a promising looking rookie on the roster.

 

[PatriotsPimp136]

Father time will catch up to brady. It happens to all the greats. Maybe not this year but idk how much he will lose next year. It's always a problem letting go of quarterbacks who build your franchise. Tough decisions.

 

[letekro]

I can't believe you are inferring that Brady is a "system QB", albeit a good one. How good was BB's system in Cleveland. How well did Josh McD do when he was a HC or OC for another team? How did Charlie Weiss do when he left NE?
I think people are quick to forget and/or minimize how great Tom Brady truly is.
I have never seen Tom Brady look ordinary over the course of the season. The ordinary offense comment comes from the fact that occasionally the Pats play great teams and the Pats don't have their full complement of weapons. It makes the game more difficult. I have seen TB12 have bad games, but overall he is played at an elite level for the last several years.
Based on last night's games, is someone going to post here that Jimmy G is now better than Aaron Rodgers. Rodgers played awful last night (even worse than ordinary) and has his full complement of weapons. And if not for poor officiating and luck, he would have had two more turnovers and one less rushing TD.
Can we just please enjoy the Pats being 2-0, having arguably one of the best QBs of all time coming back in two weeks and one great backup and a promising looking rookie on the roster.

Brady is great. The best QB of all time, in my view. However, the Patriot coaches consistently put their players in the best situations to succeed. Brady is not excluded from receiving that enormous benefit. I think there is support for the proposition that Aaron Rodgers or even Peyton Manning could be thought of as the greatest ever if they were consistently elevated by the likes of BB and Josh McD and backed by BB defenses.

Like any system, BB's system takes time to develop and it is still developing. It is better now than it was 5 years ago, better 5 years ago than 10 years ago and so. That being said, if you were watching the games back then, you would know that he turned an abysmal Browns team into a team that made the playoffs and won a playoff game (against the Patriots). Things fell apart amidst the move to Baltimore, but is that completely his fault? Anyway, I would be interested to know how many playoff games the Browns have won since BB left.

McD failed as a head coach with Tebow and Orton at the helm. I'm not sure that is super relevant to his skills as an OC in BB's system. Weis didn't do much when he left. Of course, the Patriots weren't exactly an offensive juggernaut when he was here, either. Clearly, the system works best when it is run by BB. This is evidenced by all the failures of his disciples.

I am enjoying the hell out of this situation. A HOFer, a young stud QB, and a developmental guy that looks very promising as well. We may end up having the 3 best QBs in the AFC East.