patriots are terrible at drafting wr

[jmt57]

I've no doubt that it takes a certain type of mind to grasp the nuances quickly, but people here act as if the Patriots have devoted a lot of capital to the position. They really haven't. BB has mostly shopped at the bargain basement when it comes to WRs. Just look at the contrast between BB's draft approach to WRs and TEs. In fact, look at every offensive position, except QB (RB/OT/IOL/WR/TE), and WR is the only position never to have a 1st round pick devoted to it in the BB era.

I sometimes feel his philosophy on the WR position is quantity over quality, and then wait and see what happens. Bring in ten various 'maybes' since so little can be determined by film, interviews and workouts - and then hope that the percentages mean that one or perhaps two will be worth retaining.

 

[PatsfanCP]

The draft is a crapshoot but I really wish the patriots scouts went more In Depth


One that really bothers me the patriots wasted a second round pick on Aaron Dobson

 

[Deus Irae]

I sometimes feel his philosophy on the WR position is quantity over quality, and then wait and see what happens. Bring in ten various 'maybes' since so little can be determined by film, interviews and workouts - and then hope that the percentages mean that one or perhaps two will be worth retaining.

Quantity over quality only works if that quantity has some quality. We've seen that with CBs. We've seen that with TEs. We've seen that with WRs. You don't need to have Randy Moss lining up for you, but you can't be lining up the likes of a Kenbrell Thompkins or the corpse of Tory Holt. We'd all be singing a different tune (and likely all be hyped about the impending Patriots v. Panthers SB) if Dobson had worked out, because he'd have fit the needed middle-deep role, but he's been a bust to this point.

This team, when healthy, has almost everything one could ask for on offense. When all are healthy, the line is adequate to the task because it's weakness is masked by the other players. When all are healthy, the offense lacks only that middle-deep threat.

Or, to put it another way, picture this group (just for example... I'm not trying to ride any specific OWR here) when healthy for a passing play/down, with Gronk's ability to either split out wide or threaten the entire middle of the field from the inside, and the OL not absolutely wetting itself:

RB - Lewis
TE - Gronk
OWR - Martavis Bryant
SWR - Edelman
TE2/WR3/3dRB2

It'd be like Mr. Miyagi said in Karate Kid: "If do right, no can defense."

 

[meatface]

But we are great at turning qbs into wide receivers so please draft reynolds

Sent from my KFSOWI using Tapatalk

 

[PatsfanCP]

Quantity over quality only works if that quantity has some quality. We've seen that with CBs. We've seen that with TEs. We've seen that with WRs. You don't need to have Randy Moss lining up for you, but you can't be lining up the likes of a Kenbrell Thompkins or the corpse of Tory Holt. We'd all be singing a different tune (and likely all be hyped about the impending Patriots v. Panthers SB) if Dobson had worked out, because he'd have fit the needed middle-deep role, but he's been a bust to this point.

This team, when healthy, has almost everything one could ask for on offense. When all are healthy, the line is adequate to the task because it's weakness is masked by the other players. When all are healthy, the offense lacks only that middle-deep threat.

Or, to put it another way, picture this group (just for example... I'm not trying to ride any specific OWR here) when healthy for a passing play/down, with Gronk's ability to either split out wide or threaten the entire middle of the field from the inside, and the OL not absolutely wetting itself:

RB - Lewis
TE - Gronk
OWR - Martavis Bryant
SWR - Edelman
TE2/WR3/3dRB2

It'd be like Mr. Miyagi said in Karate Kid: "If do right, no can defense."

That would be a record breaking line up

 

[TheFlyingWedge]

Belichick couldn't draft TE's either until they drafted the GOAT TE.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Caldwell was 2006. Stallworth was 2007, and had lost his starting job by about midseason. Lloyd & Co. not being complete embarrassments to the sport of football doesn't mean that they were successes.

I liked Lloyd for the team, despite his limitations. I thought they should have kept him around and just added another piece. It was the team that decided he was not a success, not me.

From 2007-2015, the Patriots have either not a single successful WR FA signing, or they've had one, depending upon your take on Amendola*. That's just the math of it. I, personally, don't consider Amendola a success (Remember, he was supposed to be the successor to Welker), but he's not a complete dud, either. If there was a way to give a signing half credit, that's where I'd put him.



* To be fair, one could really call Branch a successful FA signing, rather than viewing him as a returnee.

Double check me but Branch was a trade acquisition in 2010.

Stallworth had just as many catches after he lost his starting job. It was always a 1 yr deal here as his 2008 salary was nuts, was cut and he left for more cash. He was the 3/4WR here with Gaffney. Nothing more. He was fine.

If the expectation was that DA was going to have the same production ad WW then he was a bad signing. If we look at the body of work, he was fine.

Pats expressed interest in resigning Lloyd- for the right price. I agree. I thought he was fine here.

 

[borg]

How committed should the Patriots be in filling their 3rd or 4th passing option?

Order of importance for NE
1) Slot WR
2) TE
3 /4) Outside WR / 3rd Down RB

Limited resources (cap), limited draft picks, bottom of the round draft slotting......in other words....the outside WR position is limited by budgetary constraints, availability, and value in NE's system.
Also.....let's be brutally honest......the sideline/deep passes to the outside WR are not Brady's great strength. In the % game valued by offensive coordinators, you understand your strengths and build around them. BB flirted with the Moss-like WR, but at the end of the day, he values a TE-centric offense that utilizes Brady's greatest strengths...reading defenses/short passes.
Furthermore...how effective can any outside WR be given NE's wretched O line protection. Having a top of the draft stud WR won't do this offense any good if Brady is getting pounded in under 2 seconds every snap. And if 3 or 4 D linemen can get to Brady leaving 7-8 in coverage, again , poor deployment of assets.
Regarding Lafell....I don't want to give the guy a pass given his injury riddled/ineffective performance this year....but I will... Build a better O line that can give outside WRs more time to develop patterns...and the Lafell's of NE's WR corp will be more productive. In NE's current state, these outside WRs were asked to be shifty slot-like pass catchers...and that is not what they are.

In conclusion: FIXING THE O LINE will solve a lot of the offense's problems....pass protection, running the ball, more effective outside WR play.

PS....lots of love here for Pittsburg's WR talent ...and they are awesome. What isn't awesome are the hits Big Ben takes as he waits on his fleet of deep threats to do their thing to get open. How many games did the Pitt QB miss because of Pitts love for the long ball. BB understands the value of his assets better than most teams and Brady has survived the punishment better than most because of NE's offensive design. It's not a coincidence. For 2016...it is all about the O line reconstruction....personnel and coaching

 

[fester]

I'd give up a 3rd round pick to lure the Steelers WR scout over here.

some of it may be scouting, some of it is system.

There was a recent article (I can't find it right now) where Rothelsberger stated that there are times when he has no idea where Brown is on the field but he'll see a flash and toss.... Brown is great at getting open, but the Steelers offense feasts on play-ground broken plays going big. I don't think the Patriots' system would have allowed for the degree of free lancing that the Steelers encourage

 

[BTTA]

Here is my question: are we bad at drafting WRs OR are we bad at DEVELOPING WRs?

Or are the Pats average at developing WR's (based on the success rate across the League) and the Steelers are excellent at it?

 

[BradyFTW!]

The patriots run a very complex system but you can tell me that a rare talent like Antonio brown could not play in this offense or martavis Bryant I think player like jordy Nelson would excel in the Patriots system

Of the WRs that the Steelers have produced over the past few years, Brown and Sanders would have done very well here. Wallace likely wouldn't have.

 

[Deus Irae]

Of the WRs that the Steelers have produced over the past few years, Brown and Sanders would have done very well here. Wallace likely wouldn't have.

Wallace would have been taking the Randy Moss routes. There's no reason he couldn't have successfully run those, albeit at a lower level of proficiency, since nobody's Randy Moss.

 

[Deus Irae]

Double check me but Branch was a trade acquisition in 2010.

Stallworth had just as many catches after he lost his starting job. It was always a 1 yr deal here as his 2008 salary was nuts, was cut and he left for more cash. He was the 3/4WR here with Gaffney. Nothing more. He was fine.

If the expectation was that DA was going to have the same production ad WW then he was a bad signing. If we look at the body of work, he was fine.

Pats expressed interest in resigning Lloyd- for the right price. I agree. I thought he was fine here.

Yes, we disagree about what's a success in these evaluations. For me, if the team cuts a guy after just one season of a team friendly multi year deal, I don't consider that guy a team success, since the team obviously doesn't consider that guy a team success, even if I thought the guy got the job done. You do.

And come on with Stallworth. The guy got demoted, and you're calling that a success. That should tell you that you've got an evaluation issue. That's like calling Kenbrell Thompkins and Aaron Dobson successes because they both caught more than 30 passes in 2013, when they were force fed the ball out of necessity.

 

[goheels22002]

Welker figured it out
Moss figured it out
Gaffney figured it out
Branch figured it out
Givens figured it out
Edelman figured it out

We've gotten a full cross section over time. 'Rookies', veterans, physical specimens, midgets, etc...

The players are out there. When you're making choices like Jackson over Jennings, Dobson over Allen, Boyce over Wheaton, etc..., you're going to suffer for it.

I agree with you, and...

Amendola figured it out.
LaFell figured it out but got hurt
Lloyd figured it out.

I also think Dobson figured it out, but foot injuries are season and career killers for WRs who have to get off the line explosively and make hard cuts that put torque and stress on a part of the foot that really cannot be stabilized like an ankle or even a knee by building the right muscles and braces.

These threads always drive me crazy. The Patriots have a unique offense that features read-and-react route trees, and a QB who changes up the plays constantly. I also do not care how WRs are acquired. Ordway is articulate about using draft picks on Welker and Moss which negates the argument that the Patriots cannot use draft picks to get all-pro talent when they need it.

This is one of those years at WR, and OT.

 

[primetime]

drafting WR is a crap shoot...

disappointments first round alone:
kevin white(2015)
nelson agholor(2015)
breshad perriman(2015)
philip dorsett(2015)
tavon austin(2013)
coradelle patterson(2013)
justin blackmon(2012)
aj jenkins(2012)
jon baldwin(2011)

WRs take a few years to develop, generally. I'd hold off on calling any of the 2015 guys disappointments for now.

 

[IcyPatriot]

Only QB is harder to analyze in the draft than the WR position.
Good Mike Reiss column:
Reiss: Why do Pats miss on drafting WRs?

 

[BradyFTW!]

I agree with you, and...

Amendola figured it out.
LaFell figured it out but got hurt
Lloyd figured it out.

I also think Dobson figured it out, but foot injuries are season and career killers for WRs who have to get off the line explosively and make hard cuts that put torque and stress on a part of the foot that really cannot be stabilized like an ankle or even a knee by building the right muscles and braces.

These threads always drive me crazy. The Patriots have a unique offense that features read-and-react route trees, and a QB who changes up the plays constantly. I also do not care how WRs are acquired. Ordway is articulate about using draft picks on Welker and Moss which negates the argument that the Patriots cannot use draft picks to get all-pro talent when they need it.

This is one of those years at WR, and OT.

I think your point about Dobson is an important one. It's hard to hold it against the Pats' drafting/scouting that they picked a guy with no relevant injury history who suffered a career-altering foot injury as a rookie. If they did anything wrong there, IMO it's playing him on that foot before it was fully recovered, so that the reinjury basically took away his first full offseason.

 

[Deus Irae]

I also think Dobson figured it out, but foot injuries are season and career killers for WRs who have to get off the line explosively and make hard cuts that put torque and stress on a part of the foot that really cannot be stabilized like an ankle or even a knee by building the right muscles and braces.

I'm not sure what you think Dobson figured out, but I hope it's not playing NFL WR. We've seen that hasn't done that with any real success, even when he's been healthy.


He's apparently figured out how he likes his hair cut, so he's got that going for him.

 

[FCB02062]

I remember Parcells saying something one time to the affect of "it's a waste to use high draft picks on guys that play outside the numbers". Bill Parcells was head coach or VP of teams and had "influence" over drafts for 17 seasons (I'm discounting the Terry Glenn draft because we know that was not Tuna's pick). In 17 drafts Parcells used his first pick on a corner or wide receiver only FIVE times...surely the game has changed since Tuna's time, but his words do have merit for offense.
I would argue that first round picks on receivers are wasteful, but first picks on corners are much needed...unless they're from Rutgers

 

[Ivan]

The draft is a crapshoot but I really wish the patriots scouts went more In Depth


One that really bothers me the patriots wasted a second round pick on Aaron Dobson

Yep, they completely screwed the pooch on the Dobson pick.