PFT - LJ on the block?

[patriotspride]

anybody who doesn't like playing for a coach because of the color of his skin is bad news and i don't want him polluting the patriots with his racist garbage .there is absolutly no excuse for him .none

 

[upstater1]

It's still racist. What if Peyton Manning said the same exact comments about Tony Dungy? He would be crucified worse than Don Imus. At the very least, he would probably have been suspended.

You know what? An African American coach the same age **** Vermeil would probably have the same problems understanding where a young African American athlete is coming from and a younger coach like Eric Mangini probably understands a young African American athlete better than an older African American coach in many cases.

Larry Johnson was looking for an excuse for him getting in **** Vermeil's dog house. Instead of taking personal responsibility for his actions, he pulled the race card. He has admitted that he used to fall asleep in team meetings. How exactly is that a case of **** Vermeil not understanding his background.

It isn't a radical idea. Players deflect personal responsibility all the time.

What actions? What did LJ ever do? Vermeil was ABSOLUTELY at fault. Go ask a Kansas City fan. They'll tell you that Vermeil killed the kid.

Your hypothetical about Peyton Manning is completely out of context. The point is, there haven't been that many black head coaches as compared to white coaches. Why would Peyton even say something like that? Hypothetically, he'd be correct, but there's no context for him to say something like that. You think he relates well to Tony dungy? Maybe, but it seems to me that Peyton isn't so cleancut and Christian as Dungy is (Peyton is a pretty salty character who seems to have more in common with Bill Belichick). But why would he even make such a comment about Dungy? There's no context there.

We're talking about two cultures inside the US, one which is alien and foreign to a majority of white people, not all white people. Mangini as a guy that went to Wesleyan would have a LOT harder time understanding, say, the family backgrounds, the inner city travails, of black players, whereas an old fogie like Shaw from Oakland would have a very good sense of it. Obviously, in the end, Mangini can coach circles around Shaw, and that's all that matters. And I'm sure that Johnson would rather play for a guy like that than a guy who can't coach football. It doesn't change the fact, however, that Shaw can relate more to black players than Mangini can.

 

[upstater1]

Larry Johnson killed his own career. Stop blaming Vermeil. One of **** Vermeil's first moves when he became the Rams' head coach was pick Lawrence Phillips up from jail and he tried to get his life back on track. Vermeil was always a tough coach, but he was always a fair coach. Herm is a easy going guy who doesn't push his players too hard (just go back and read all the articles last preseason where Jets players complained how much harder Mangini was over Herm). LJ likes the guy who doesn't push him too hard. There were 52 other players on the team that had no apparent trouble with Vermeil. Why would Vermeil single out Johnson to ruin his career especially since Vermeil drafted him in the first round?

I never said he didn't want to play for a white coach. I said he implied that he hated playing for Vermeil because he was a white coach. There is a difference.

You must have missed the entire KC story. Vermail was entirely at fault. He had a vendetta against the kid because the KC GM overruled him in the draft and took Johnson, against Vermeil's express wishes. This is a well known FACT. Where have you been the last few years? Go ask any Kansas city fan.

 

[JoeSixPat]

anybody who doesn't like playing for a coach because of the color of his skin is bad news and i don't want him polluting the patriots with his racist garbage .there is absolutly no excuse for him .none

I know what he said wasn't politcally correct, nor well spoken - but let's not take his comment too far out of context.

A black man, Johnson said he preferred playing for a black coach.

Is this so shocking? Someone wants to play for a coach he identifies with who he feels can identify with him? Someone he shares some cultural heritage with?

Yes, I know Johnson didn't exactly crow up among sharecroppers and actually probably had a more priveleged life growing up than I did - but this honest admission shouldn't be overblown.

No question he should have kept his mouth shut but a black man expressing an added degree of comfort playing for a black coach doesn't make him a racist.

 

[Rob0729]

What actions? What did LJ ever do? Vermeil was ABSOLUTELY at fault. Go ask a Kansas City fan. They'll tell you that Vermeil killed the kid.

Your hypothetical about Peyton Manning is completely out of context. The point is, there haven't been that many black head coaches as compared to white coaches. Why would Peyton even say something like that? Hypothetically, he'd be correct, but there's no context for him to say something like that. You think he relates well to Tony dungy? Maybe, but it seems to me that Peyton isn't so cleancut and Christian as Dungy is (Peyton is a pretty salty character who seems to have more in common with Bill Belichick). But why would he even make such a comment about Dungy? There's no context there.

We're talking about two cultures inside the US, one which is alien and foreign to a majority of white people, not all white people. Mangini as a guy that went to Wesleyan would have a LOT harder time understanding, say, the family backgrounds, the inner city travails, of black players, whereas an old fogie like Shaw from Oakland would have a very good sense of it. Obviously, in the end, Mangini can coach circles around Shaw, and that's all that matters. And I'm sure that Johnson would rather play for a guy like that than a guy who can't coach football. It doesn't change the fact, however, that Shaw can relate more to black players than Mangini can.

My hypothetical is out of context? Ok, what if a white basketball player said it about a black coach. There are plenty of African American coaches in the NBA and there have been for nearly decades. Is that a fair example?

Aparantly Vermeil was so mean to Johnson that it exhausted Johnson to the point that he habitually fell asleep at meetings (Johnson himself has admitted to that). But Vermeil shouldn't have gotten mad at that because it was a cultural thing? Aparently if Vermeil was African American, he would have known that it is part of the young black athlete's culture to fall asleep in meetings? Is that the case?

The fact of the matter is Johnson slacked off in meetings, he had conflicts with his coach, and he didn't perform. That is the player's fault. A lot of players hate their coaches white and black, but they shut up and do their job. Johnson didn't. That is his fault. It ain't a cultural thing.


Larry Johnson is a racist! You can spin it anyway you want, but he is no different than Don Imus except Imus lost his job for saying racist remarks. If he cannot take instructions from a head coach because he is white and he doesn't know where he is coming from, then he is a racist and a poor team player. Plain and simple.

 

[Boston Tim]

I hope he stays in KC as their feature back. I want to see how he performs without Will Shields and Willie Roaf.

 

[Rob0729]

You must have missed the entire KC story. Vermail was entirely at fault. He had a vendetta against the kid because the KC GM overruled him in the draft and took Johnson, against Vermeil's express wishes. This is a well known FACT. Where have you been the last few years? Go ask any Kansas city fan.

Yeah, **** Vermeil put sleeping pills in Larry Johnson's water so he would fall asleep at meetings. The fact of the matter is Vermeil has always been known to be tough but fair on his players. Johnson just couldn't handle it.

Maybe Vermeil didn't want Johnson probably because he had Holmes. But what exactly did he do to Johnson other than say he needed diapers. And I think he demoted him one training camp. The diaper comment is something Parcells would say too.

Reports were the guy wasn't as dedicated initially. Maybe he was pissed off at Vermeil because he didn't want him. Maybe he was upset that they weren't giving him more carries. Give me examples how he sunk this guys' career other than not giving him more reps in 2003 which was the year Priest Holmes broke the single season TD record.

 

[Rob0729]

I know what he said wasn't politcally correct, nor well spoken - but let's not take his comment too far out of context.

A black man, Johnson said he preferred playing for a black coach.

Is this so shocking? Someone wants to play for a coach he identifies with who he feels can identify with him? Someone he shares some cultural heritage with?

Yes, I know Johnson didn't exactly crow up among sharecroppers and actually probably had a more priveleged life growing up than I did - but this honest admission shouldn't be overblown.

No question he should have kept his mouth shut but a black man expressing an added degree of comfort playing for a black coach doesn't make him a racist.

Of course it means he is racist. What if Brian Urlacher said the same thing about Lovie Smith? His career would be over shortly after he said it.

In all honesty, what does any head coach in his 50s and 60s really understand about his twenty-something athletes' lives today no matter the race, culture, etc. Do you really think Herm Edwards really knows about the life of today's young African American athlete in the NFL? Do you think Bill Belichick knows really knows about the life of today's young white athlete? The age difference is as great or greater than the cultural difference.

If Larry Johnson had problems taking orders from **** Vermeil because he is white and doesn't have the same background as Johnson, that is Johnson's own inherent racism. Herm Edwards grew up in a much different era than Johnson and dealt with a lot different cultural issues than Johnson. Some of these differences are as different as they are from Johnson and Vermeil.

I'm sorry, but when I was 21 my grandfather had trouble relating to my culture and understanding where I was coming from and we were blood. It had more to do with the fact he was 40 something years older than me and he grew up in a different era.

It is a racist comment. You are just not looking at it that way because it is a black man saying it about a white man. If it was a white man saying it about a black man, then there would be no doubt it was racism.

 

[upstater1]

I know what he said wasn't politcally correct, nor well spoken - but let's not take his comment too far out of context.

A black man, Johnson said he preferred playing for a black coach.

Is this so shocking? Someone wants to play for a coach he identifies with who he feels can identify with him? Someone he shares some cultural heritage with?

Yes, I know Johnson didn't exactly crow up among sharecroppers and actually probably had a more priveleged life growing up than I did - but this honest admission shouldn't be overblown.

No question he should have kept his mouth shut but a black man expressing an added degree of comfort playing for a black coach doesn't make him a racist.

I think you hit on it exactly.

Johnson was speaking in GENERALITIES about black players IN GENERAL. all the stuff about growing up without a father, growing up in dangerous neighborhoods, having family and friends hit you up for $$ after you made yourself into a success, NONE of this applies to Johnson specifically because his experience is very different from that of some of his black peers.

I've been trying to point this out to people. He's just talking IN GENERAL about black players. what he said is really not radical at all. If he had said he ONLY wants to play for black coaches, or if he wanted to play for a mediocre black coach instead of a good white coach, then I'd have a problem with him. Heck, if he wanted to play for a mediocre black coach over a mediocre white coach, I might still have a problem with him. But saying that he relates better to a black coach, that's not surprising in the least. Why are you all surprised by this?

 

[upstater1]

My hypothetical is out of context? Ok, what if a white basketball player said it about a black coach. There are plenty of African American coaches in the NBA and there have been for nearly decades. Is that a fair example?

Aparantly Vermeil was so mean to Johnson that it exhausted Johnson to the point that he habitually fell asleep at meetings (Johnson himself has admitted to that). But Vermeil shouldn't have gotten mad at that because it was a cultural thing? Aparently if Vermeil was African American, he would have known that it is part of the young black athlete's culture to fall asleep in meetings? Is that the case?

The fact of the matter is Johnson slacked off in meetings, he had conflicts with his coach, and he didn't perform. That is the player's fault. A lot of players hate their coaches white and black, but they shut up and do their job. Johnson didn't. That is his fault. It ain't a cultural thing.


Larry Johnson is a racist! You can spin it anyway you want, but he is no different than Don Imus except Imus lost his job for saying racist remarks. If he cannot take instructions from a head coach because he is white and he doesn't know where he is coming from, then he is a racist and a poor team player. Plain and simple.

You're whitewashing everything that happened in Kansas city. I have no idea why you're doing it, but it's intellectually dishonest. I'd say most serious football fans are entirely aware that Vermeil screwed up the relationship with Johnson from the very beginning. You have a stick up your butt about this, i have no idea why.

 

[upstater1]

If Larry Johnson had problems taking orders from **** Vermeil because he is white and doesn't have the same background as Johnson, that is Johnson's own inherent racism. Herm Edwards grew up in a much different era than Johnson and dealt with a lot different cultural issues than Johnson. Some of these differences are as different as they are from Johnson and Vermeil.

You're just making stuff up now. He never said he had problems taking orders from Vermeil because he was white. Johnson had an excellent relationship with Paterno. You're just on a mission to smear this kid.

 

[Rob0729]

You're just making stuff up now. He never said he had problems taking orders from Vermeil because he was white. Johnson had an excellent relationship with Paterno. You're just on a mission to smear this kid.

Yeah, that's it. I want to smear the kid. I guess I have this thing about tarnishing racists reputations. The fact of the matter is if a white player said the same exact thing about a black coach, he would be suspended from the NFL. Aparently unlike you, I don't believe in double standards. I think it is a racist comment is a racist comment whether a white person or an African American person says it. I hate racism no matter where it comes from.

If Peyton Manning said it about Tony Dungy (and yes it is a fair comparison) or Brian Urlacher said it about Lovie Smith or Ben Roethlisberger said it about Mike Tomlin or Charlie Frye said that about Romeo Crennel, there would be public outrage about the comments. If African American players come from very different culture from white coaches, then white players obviously come from different cultural backgrounds than African American coaches. Yet if any white player made these comments, they would be labelled a racist.

I'm sorry, but I am going to let this slide just because it was an African American saying about a white person. Racism is racism. I have nothing against Larry Johnson except that he is racist.

Again give me examples of how Vermeil tried to sink Johnson's career or are you just trying to smear Vermeil's name?

 

[Rob0729]

At this point, let's agree to disagree and be done with it. Johnson's comments have been hashed and rehashed in the media when he said it. It happened like six months ago. I am tired of talking about it and neither of us will change each other's minds. It is useless to keep going at this point.

 

[skri65]

We spent a first rounder on Maroney. Realistically, we would never ever sign LJ...at least not for this season.

 

[upstater1]

Yeah, that's it. I want to smear the kid. I guess I have this thing about tarnishing racists reputations. The fact of the matter is if a white player said the same exact thing about a black coach, he would be suspended from the NFL. Aparently unlike you, I don't believe in double standards. I think it is a racist comment is a racist comment whether a white person or an African American person says it. I hate racism no matter where it comes from.

If Peyton Manning said it about Tony Dungy (and yes it is a fair comparison) or Brian Urlacher said it about Lovie Smith or Ben Roethlisberger said it about Mike Tomlin or Charlie Frye said that about Romeo Crennel, there would be public outrage about the comments. If African American players come from very different culture from white coaches, then white players obviously come from different cultural backgrounds than African American coaches. Yet if any white player made these comments, they would be labelled a racist.

I'm sorry, but I am going to let this slide just because it was an African American saying about a white person. Racism is racism. I have nothing against Larry Johnson except that he is racist.

Again give me examples of how Vermeil tried to sink Johnson's career or are you just trying to smear Vermeil's name?

No white player would ever be taken to task for saying, in general, white players do have more in common in terms of BACKGROUND with white coaches.

You know why? Because it's obvious.

Yes, a white player would get taken to task for saying he'd rather play for a specific white coach. But you know what, Larry Johnson never said anything like that. He never said his problem with Vermeil was because Vermeil is white. He said that black coaches can relate better to the problems of black players. They can. That makes the working relationship a litle easier.

what's so hard to understand?

 

[Rob0729]

No white player would ever be taken to task for saying, in general, white players do have more in common in terms of BACKGROUND with white coaches.

You know why? Because it's obvious.

Yes, a white player would get taken to task for saying he'd rather play for a specific white coach. But you know what, Larry Johnson never said anything like that. He never said his problem with Vermeil was because Vermeil is white. He said that black coaches can relate better to the problems of black players. They can. That makes the working relationship a litle easier.

what's so hard to understand?

Now who is lying to make his point. If Johnson said that, we wouldn't be having a converstion.

He said:

"The one thing we hate is to have somebody who is not African-American come in and say, 'You've got to do this,'"

If Peyton Manning said that white players hate when someone not white comes in and tells white players that "You've gotta do this"; he would be protested by Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton, suspended or at least fined by the league, and become a public pariah.

What Johnson said is racist and offensive. If you can't see that, I feel sorry for you. You can't explain away that statement as anything but racist. Whether he meant to say it that way or not, it was very racist the way he said it.

Aparently, that is why this arguement has gone on so long. You really don't understand what he said. He said that black players don't like when white coaches tell them what to do on certain issues. That isn't saying that he has more in common with black coaches. If he said that, then I would have no problem.

Until you can really understand how offensive that statement really is, I guess we really don't have anything to say to each other.

 

[patriotspride]

Now who is lying to make his point. If Johnson said that, we wouldn't be having a converstion.

He said:

"The one thing we hate is to have somebody who is not African-American come in and say, 'You've got to do this,'"

If Peyton Manning said that white players hate when someone not white comes in and tells white players that "You've gotta do this"; he would be protested by Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton, suspended or at least fined by the league, and become a public pariah.

What Johnson said is racist and offensive. If you can't see that, I feel sorry for you. You can't explain away that statement as anything but racist. Whether he meant to say it that way or not, it was very racist the way he said it.

Aparently, that is why this arguement has gone on so long. You really don't understand what he said. He said that black players don't like when white coaches tell them what to do on certain issues. That isn't saying that he has more in common with black coaches. If he said that, then I would have no problem.

Until you can really understand how offensive that statement really is, I guess we really don't have anything to say to each other.

well said.i think upstater1 is in full spin mode.

 

[SpiderFox53]

No white player would ever be taken to task for saying, in general, white players do have more in common in terms of BACKGROUND with white coaches.

You know why? Because it's obvious.

You're correct, they wouldn't be taken to task for saying this because it is obvious, the problem is that Johnson didn't say anything like what you wrote.

Yes, a white player would get taken to task for saying he'd rather play for a specific white coach. But you know what, Larry Johnson never said anything like that. He never said his problem with Vermeil was because Vermeil is white.

No, he said his problem was being told to do something by a white guy, a patently racist remark that you seem to be attempting to gloss over.

He said that black coaches can relate better to the problems of black players. They can. That makes the working relationship a litle easier.

what's so hard to understand?

What's so hard to understand is why you are seeming to be an apologist for LJ, he's got enough of those, he doesn't need you.

 

[upstater1]

Now who is lying to make his point. If Johnson said that, we wouldn't be having a converstion.

He said:

"The one thing we hate is to have somebody who is not African-American come in and say, 'You've got to do this,'"

If Peyton Manning said that white players hate when someone not white comes in and tells white players that "You've gotta do this"; he would be protested by Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton, suspended or at least fined by the league, and become a public pariah.

What Johnson said is racist and offensive. If you can't see that, I feel sorry for you. You can't explain away that statement as anything but racist. Whether he meant to say it that way or not, it was very racist the way he said it.

Aparently, that is why this arguement has gone on so long. You really don't understand what he said. He said that black players don't like when white coaches tell them what to do on certain issues. That isn't saying that he has more in common with black coaches. If he said that, then I would have no problem.

Until you can really understand how offensive that statement really is, I guess we really don't have anything to say to each other.

And what's the context? He's talking about their PERSONAL lives, not what goes on on the football field. Read the quote again. You actually think that, as a football player, he doesn't want to take orders from the football coach?!!

 

[upstater1]

well said.i think upstater1 is in full spin mode.

yeah spinning at the idiocy on this thread.