Do not watch if you have high blood pressure: Ravens game winning FG goes wide right

[BSR]

All I hear in here is excessive ranting about how the Refs called penalties all game on the pats and how there was holding calls all night long that were not called.

Do you really not think the Pats may have gotten away with a lot in the trenches as well or are some of you just blind homers?

The refs called too many dumb penalties and at the same time let too many real penalties go without a flag

Both teams got away with obvious penalties and both teams had stupid ones called against them as well......lets not whine that it was a one way affair..it was bad for both teams and a disgrace to the league

in fact the Ravens were called for 14 times for 135 Yards and the Pats 10 times for 83 Yards with 24 flags thrown all game.

What is your point? That we shouldn't discuss whether the kick was good or not because it was really a well officiated game and it had not bearing on the game? It was the frigging winning kick with no time left? Ummm...it kind of mattered.

 

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

If I was a Raven's fan I would be thanking my lucky stars and taking the win. No doubt about it. But their opinion nor yours means anything as to whether or not the kick was good. This isn't a poll regarding peoples opinion on the kick. Its trying to analyse some visual evidence do determine what ACTUALLY happened.

What is concerning to me is regardless of whether the kick was good or whether I thought it was good does not matter now,what does matter is those few inches of that very ball that determined the game last night may also be looked at down the line in Mid January and determine the difference between playing in a wild card game or a week off and a top 2 Seed.

That is if NE can get back to routinely winning games

 

[cmasspatsfan]

How could this possibly be from the kicker's view?

I was trying to make the point that it was the opposite view from the video, poor choice of words to make my point.

 

[TyronePoole]

I was trying to make the point that it was the opposite view from the video, poor choice of words to make my point.

ah I see, sorry

 

[BSR]

What is concerning to me is regardless of whether the kick was good or whether I thought it was good does not matter now,what does matter is those few inches of that very ball that determined the game last night may also be looked at down the line in Mid January and determine the difference between playing in a wild card game or a week off and a top 2 Seed.

That is if NE can get back to routinely winning games

That's good for you. Me? I'd like to know if these crappy replacement refs just ACTUALLY cost us a game.

As for whether or not NE can win again, I am now thoroughly convinced that that is now entirely in the hands of the refs.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

Ravens-Patriots 9-23-12 - YouTube

There you go boys and girls.

WIDE RIGHT.

Huh? I thought the clip was going to be a closeup of the ball as it went over the plane of the uprights. From that distance and angle, you can't tell when the ball reaches the goal posts much less whether it was between them.

I think we'd better start worrying about Buffalo in Orchard Park and not rehashing which millimeter of a ball was or was not within or over a goal post's upright.

 

[NSPF]

All I hear in here is excessive ranting about how the Refs called penalties all game on the pats and how there was holding calls all night long that were not called.

Do you really not think the Pats may have gotten away with a lot in the trenches as well or are some of you just blind homers?

The refs called too many dumb penalties and at the same time let too many real penalties go without a flag

Both teams got away with obvious penalties and both teams had stupid ones called against them as well......lets not whine that it was a one way affair..it was bad for both teams and a disgrace to the league

in fact the Ravens were called for 14 times for 135 Yards and the Pats 10 times for 83 Yards with 24 flags thrown all game.

Look here, the point isn't that one team or the other got screwed. The point is that neither team was given a chance to play a fair game of football. We don't want to watch which team is better at overcoming the bad officiating. The officials are not supposed to be part of the game. People complain about officiating every game, but when have you EVER heard a national broadcaster say that the officials are not qualified to do their job? You can't just sit here acting like this isn't a problem.

Yes, we're mad, but we're mad because the Patriots were the ones who ended up getting screwed in the end. And frankly, if that kick was no good, the Ravens would have been the ones who got screwed, because NEITHER TEAM WAS GIVEN A CHANCE TO PLAY A PROPER GAME OF FOOTBALL. If either outcome of a game is a team getting screwed by the officials, there is something seriously, seriously wrong.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

What is your point? That we shouldn't discuss whether the kick was good or not because it was really a well officiated game and it had not bearing on the game? It was the frigging winning kick with no time left? Ummm...it kind of mattered.

I would tend to agree that it is a relevant discussion. But the picture at the top of this thread does nothing to resolve the question. From what I saw on TV last night, the ball crosses over the upright, which makes it a good kick.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

Look here, the point isn't that one team or the other got screwed. The point is that neither team was given a chance to play a fair game of football. We don't want to watch which team is better at overcoming the bad officiating. The officials are not supposed to be part of the game. People complain about officiating every game, but when have you EVER heard a national broadcaster say that the officials are not qualified to do their job? You can't just sit here acting like this isn't a problem.

Yes, we're mad, but we're mad because the Patriots were the ones who ended up getting screwed in the end. And frankly, if that kick was no good, the Ravens would have been the ones who got screwed, because NEITHER TEAM WAS GIVEN A CHANCE TO PLAY A PROPER GAME OF FOOTBALL. If either outcome of a game is a team getting screwed by the officials, there is something seriously, seriously wrong.

I think there's a general consensus that the NFL product is being devalued by the replacement officials, but until and unless the Owners agree with us and authorize the Commissioner to sweeten the deal, the situation won't change. Other than to acknowledge the reality, what good does it do to waste our time and breath on it?

If you feel strongly, I suggest you write to Bob Kraft as an ardent Pats fan and urge him to use his influence to get the matter resolved. He can actually do something about it, which none of us can.

 

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

Look here, the point isn't that one team or the other got screwed. The point is that neither team was given a chance to play a fair game of football. We don't want to watch which team is better at overcoming the bad officiating. The officials are not supposed to be part of the game. People complain about officiating every game, but when have you EVER heard a national broadcaster say that the officials are not qualified to do their job? You can't just sit here acting like this isn't a problem.

Yes, we're mad, but we're mad because the Patriots were the ones who ended up getting screwed in the end. And frankly, if that kick was no good, the Ravens would have been the ones who got screwed, because NEITHER TEAM WAS GIVEN A CHANCE TO PLAY A PROPER GAME OF FOOTBALL. If either outcome of a game is a team getting screwed by the officials, there is something seriously, seriously wrong.

While I agree that the Refs are a laughing stock,lets not act like every call was against NE and the Ravens got away with murder.

It was equally bad on calls for both sides and no matter who won the game,it was poorly officiated to say the least.

24 total flags for 218 Yards is excessive and some of those calls were bogus for both sides,there were calls that should have been made and some that should never have been called,but both teams suffered for it and one team had to win...unfortunately it wasn't NE.

Baltimore actually had 135 Yards in penalties compared to 83 for NE

 

[Palm Beach Pats Fan]

From what I saw on TV last night, the ball crosses over the upright, which makes it a good kick.

Crossing over the upright does not make it a good kick. That is NOT the rule.

If every single bit of the ball passes inside of the outer edge of the upright, that is what makes it a good kick. That is the rule.

A football is fatter than the upright, though, so if you think that the center of the ball went directly over the upright, then some part of the ball would necessarily be outside of the the outer edge of the upright.

Minor point, maybe, and 10-15 calls were clearly bad and this one was just in the "maybe bad" category, but it is important to clarify exactly what the rule is.

 

[Ring 6]

All I hear in here is excessive ranting about how the Refs called penalties all game on the pats and how there was holding calls all night long that were not called.

Do you really not think the Pats may have gotten away with a lot in the trenches as well or are some of you just blind homers?

The refs called too many dumb penalties and at the same time let too many real penalties go without a flag

Both teams got away with obvious penalties and both teams had stupid ones called against them as well......lets not whine that it was a one way affair..it was bad for both teams and a disgrace to the league

in fact the Ravens were called for 14 times for 135 Yards and the Pats 10 times for 83 Yards with 24 flags thrown all game.

I have never, ever used the ref excuse. But in this case you are lying or delusional if you don't think the game was impacted in the Ravens favor by the refs.
The Mayo call, the Edelman call, the illegal contact on McCourty, the measurement creating time to challenge, and the reversal, all were egregious calls that had a dramatic impact on the game.
Complaining that there was holding going on is crazy because you can find that every play, but in addition to what looks like a missed FG called good, there were numerous awful callls that allowed Bmore to be in the game.

 

[BSR]

I would tend to agree that it is a relevant discussion. But the picture at the top of this thread does nothing to resolve the question. From what I saw on TV last night, the ball crosses over the upright, which makes it a good kick.

Both the television feed and the picture above show the ball to be outside at the time the ball is over the uprights. That being said, I agree that neither is definitive because of the angle.

 

[PatsFaninAZ]

Does anyone else think, now I know it could've gone either way with how close it is, but that they called it good without any debate just because they were afraid of the Raven fans??

Well, no, but I do think you're on to what is the most worthwhile issue in this whole thing. The ball may have been good, and it may not have. I don't think we'll ever know. None of the pictures so far makes it clear to me.

But I do think it is the case that home field bias is more likely to be an issue for replacement refs than veteran refs. I don't think it can ever be avoided completely -- it's a legitimate concern. Anyone who has ever reffed anything beyond third graders knows that there are definitely times you want the call to be a certain way. Visiting team down by 3 in a varsity game and the guy takes a three pointer and it's very close to whether there's contact -- your eyes tell you "he got him," but while you're blowing the whistle, your brain is screaming "f***, why did you have to do that you idiot". It's not a call you are excited to make, because you know that other than the shooter and the defender, you very well may be the only other guy in the gym who knows it happened.

Part of being a great official is quieting that part of your brain. Truly not giving a crap. Ball is inside the outer edge of the upright or it's not, you don't care either way, call it and go home. So much easier to say than do, though. I feel pretty sure that while the guy who called it did not consciously call it that way, he was pretty happy he didn't have to make the other call. And that's yet another reason we need the regulars back. Nobody can ever block that stuff out completely, but you're increasing the odds with vets.

 

[Joey007]

Well, no, but I do think you're on to what is the most worthwhile issue in this whole thing. The ball may have been good, and it may not have. I don't think we'll ever know. None of the pictures so far makes it clear to me.

But I do think it is the case that home field bias is more likely to be an issue for replacement refs than veteran refs. I don't think it can ever be avoided completely -- it's a legitimate concern. Anyone who has ever reffed anything beyond third graders knows that there are definitely times you want the call to be a certain way. Visiting team down by 3 in a varsity game and the guy takes a three pointer and it's very close to whether there's contact -- your eyes tell you "he got him," but while you're blowing the whistle, your brain is screaming "f***, why did you have to do that you idiot". It's not a call you are excited to make, because you know that other than the shooter and the defender, you very well may be the only other guy in the gym who knows it happened.

Part of being a great official is quieting that part of your brain. Truly not giving a crap. Ball is inside the outer edge of the upright or it's not, you don't care either way, call it and go home. So much easier to say than do, though. I feel pretty sure that while the guy who called it did not consciously call it that way, he was pretty happy he didn't have to make the other call. And that's yet another reason we need the regulars back. Nobody can ever block that stuff out completely, but you're increasing the odds with vets.

Must've been afraid of a "bottle gate game" type scenario.

 

[NSPF]

While I agree that the Refs are a laughing stock,lets not act like every call was against NE and the Ravens got away with murder.

It was equally bad on calls for both sides and no matter who won the game,it was poorly officiated to say the least.

24 total flags for 218 Yards is excessive and some of those calls were bogus for both sides,there were calls that should have been made and some that should never have been called,but both teams suffered for it and one team had to win...unfortunately it wasn't NE.

Baltimore actually had 135 Yards in penalties compared to 83 for NE

Honestly, do you know how to read? Tell me, when did I anything even close to resembling "every call was against NE"? I complained about the fact that both teams were cheated out of a fair game. I don't know where you got "every call was against NE" from that.

 

[upstater1]

This.

Even the broadcast did not have a good angle. You can't deny the ref is under the best possible position to see the kick. It's quite simple...if he sees part the ball outside the upright, looking up the side of the upright, it's no good. If he doesn't, it's good. The ref was in position, period.

He looks out of position to me. He's standing three feet to the right of the pole instead of underneath.

 

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

Honestly, do you know how to read? Tell me, when did I anything even close to resembling "every call was against NE"? I complained about the fact that both teams were cheated out of a fair game. I don't know where you got "every call was against NE" from that.

Tell me which game this week was officiated satisfactory?

There was none and each game had controversy and there were a lot of screwings,this game was one of the bigger clashes so it got more publicity but there isn't an NFL team that has not been screwed in one way or another and as long as the NFL are cheap tightwads it will continue...get used to it.

ALL the teams,including NE are seeing the results of a billion dollar company pinching pennies.

If the Refs stay out in '12 then The Super bowl winner this year probably will have had some lucky calls that decides a playoff game they should not have received.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

Crossing over the upright does not make it a good kick. That is NOT the rule.

If every single bit of the ball passes inside of the outer edge of the upright, that is what makes it a good kick. That is the rule.

A football is fatter than the upright, though, so if you think that the center of the ball went directly over the upright, then some part of the ball would necessarily be outside of the the outer edge of the upright.

Minor point, maybe, and 10-15 calls were clearly bad and this one was just in the "maybe bad" category, but it is important to clarify exactly what the rule is.

Thanks for the clarification; I tried to Google the rule as you paraphrase it ("every single bit of the ball..."), but couldn't find it, so I'd appreciate a link so I can add one other bit of trivia to my storehouse of football knowledge.

I always thought that NFL goal posts were "silly high," but last night shows that I was wrong in that view. It would have been useful if they were about three feet higher last night, as it is possible the ball would have hit the right one; but we'll never know, which is why the play was not review-able.

It's actually a very interesting question that you raise because the odd shape of an American football actually makes it possible for the ball to strike one of the uprights and then careen between the two, as happens every so often. If a ball does strike one upright and still manage to find its way through the two, there is, because of the strange shape of the ball, no law of physics of which I am aware that says "some part" of that ball (albeit very small) could not possibly have been outside the outer edge of the upright before it careened back through.

As far as last night goes, to my eye, it's still impossible to tell whether the ball passes the interior edge of the upright before or after it crosses the plane created by the two uprights. By the time it is past the plane, the ball is clearly over and then outside the upright, but the exact moments at which it moves from "inside" to "over" to "outside" are not clear to my eye (and certainly not in the clip that opened this thread).

The only way to tell for sure would be to have two synchronized cameras, the one showing when the ball breaks the plane of the uprights and the other showing its position in relation to the upright in question at that exact moment.

Again, an interesting discussion that won't change anything and certainly won't get the Pats ready for Buffalo on Sunday.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

Both the television feed and the picture above show the ball to be outside at the time the ball is over the uprights. That being said, I agree that neither is definitive because of the angle.

Yes. As I said in my longer comment just above, you'd need two synchronized cameras to determine when the ball goes from "inside" to "over" to "outside" the upright in relation to the time it breaks the plane created by the two uprights. Or, about three additional feet on the upright would have helped too.