Center Dan Koppen re-signed for 2 years

[supafly]

Yeah, really

Connolly signed for 3 years $9.7 million with a 3.25 million signing bonus. What is that, backup money?

Koppen isn't getting $3 million this year, that's the average of a 2 year $6 million contract, hence the question of how the contract is structured and guaranteed money.

Koppen is one of the few O-lineman that can only play one position. He will be 33 going into his 10th year, he is coming off a season where he missed 15 games and was declining before that.

He's not "more than safe" and a "definite lock." He has to earn a spot.

If Koppen was "declining" so much before he broke his leg, then why was he the starter for the opening game?

That is YOUR opinion. Koppen has trouble with interior pressure up the middle on passing plays, but is about 2x as good as Connelly on rushing plays.

There's also the little fact that he has called all of the offensive line changes due to how he sees the defense too for the past 10 years.

Oh yeah, and BB and Kraft both stating that he's one of the best/smartest centers they've ever seen.

Just b/c Connelly was able to not draw too much attn to himself in a reserve role does not automatically make him the new starter now. There will be a competition.

But to say that Dan Koppen's job isn't safe is just plain silly. At worst he offers a reserve role.

Koppen's durability is second to none, as he has missed ONE game out of 121 prior to his broken leg.

 

[Fencer]

To repeat:

We have four interior OL starters, plus Gallery, plus some young guys who in a couple of cases have started successfully.

We can easily make roster space for Mankins (presumed PUP) plus 5 others.

Admittedly, about 3 of those 6 are presumed short-termers -- Waters, Koppen, Gallery. But it's not obvious we need young depth beyond the other 3, especially with Cannon added in.

 

[Armchair Quarterback]

If Koppen was "declining" so much before he broke his leg, then why was he the starter for the opening game?

No offseason, shortened training camp. Hurting for interior lineman at the beginning of the season might be a few of the reasons.

That is YOUR opinion. Koppen has trouble with interior pressure up the middle on passing plays, but is about 2x as good as Connelly on rushing plays.

Who's opinion do you want me to give?

Speaking of other people's opinions, you're doing a nice job of parroting Patfanken's assessment of Koppen and Connolly's strengths/weaknesses against the run/pass.

There's also the little fact that he has called all of the offensive line changes due to how he sees the defense too for the past 10 years.

And did they stop that practice when he got hurt? Or did someone else make the calls?

Oh yeah, and BB and Kraft both stating that he's one of the best/smartest centers they've ever seen.

OK, great

Just b/c Connelly was able to not draw too much attn to himself in a reserve role does not automatically make him the new starter now. There will be a competition.

There will be a competition - but he doesn't have to earn a spot?

Which one is it?

But to say that Dan Koppen's job isn't safe is just plain silly. At worst he offers a reserve role.

Maybe, maybe not. He's up there in age and basically missed all of last season, nobody knows how he'll look until training camp. He doesn't offer position flexibility or potential upside and depending on how his contract is structured, he may be making more money than the Pats are willing to pay a reserve if he doesn't win a starting job. If he doesn't win the starting job, he might not be on the team.

 

[Armchair Quarterback]

Dude..I will give you the point that maybe Koppen will have to show that he is still the starter, but to say that "he has to earn a spot" on the 53 man roster is silly.

Who is going to beat him out with a 2 yr/6 million dollar pact? Nick McDonald?

Connelly also provides great depth as a guard too, I think you need to take that into acct when thinking about his pact.

McDonald would be cheaper and could also play guard, which Koppen cannot.
That contract doesn't work in his favor if he doesn't win the starting job.

 

[supafly]

McDonald would be cheaper and could also play guard, which Koppen cannot.
That contract doesn't work in his favor if he doesn't win the starting job.

There will be a competition to be the starter.

Comparing Koppen and his 10 yr tenure here to freaking Nick McDonald is hilarious.

The NEP did not just give Dan Koppen that kind of money to NOT make the 53 man roster, whether you try to spin signing bonuses, average per yr--whatever. The NEP are not in the habit of throwing money down the drain.

There may very well be a provision or two that would make it more beneficial for them to cut him after the 2012 season, but no matter how you look at it they fully expect him to make the team.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one, but with all due respect--you are talking out of your ass. You are claiming that the NEP just decided to give Koppen a 2 yr deal worth 6 million dollars and now he is going to have to suddenly beat out Ryan freaking Wendall and Nick McDonald for at least a backup job. That is beyond ridiculous, but you are entitled to your opinion.

Even if it's more of a backloaded (towards the second yr) deal, they are not in the habit of offering someone 3 million average per yr only to suddenly 'cut' him for no apparent reason.

Your reasoning as to why he started last yr is silly. How many of the same players were still on the team then? Connelly? Wendell? McDonald on the practice squad? They were all there. So was Mankins/Waters as guards. There was no 'lack of interior help' as you say.

Koppen does many things better than Connelly. He has a great rapport with Brady and the rest of the line. That chemisty between center and QB cannot be replaced, and never was. Just b/c Connelly stepped in does not mean everything went according to plan and no mistakes were made. Belichick brought him back for a reason, and that reason is to at the very least be a backup/depth guy here for 2012.

He is not earning a one year 975,000 vet minimum salary. I don't know why you'd even think that the NEP would go out of their way to re sign him for that kind of money if they plan on cutting him. You are letting your bias against Koppen and his "declining" skills in one area effect your common sense.

As far as patfanken etc and his opinion on Koppen, he is a well respected poster by me personally, and if he and I (and the majority of the world) share the opinion that Koppen has a strength vs the run, and more of a weakness vs the pass---then so be it...It's not an uncommon opinion at all. Koppen has had a tendency to have problems at times against certain interior pressures up the middle. Besides that he has been a great asset to this team.

 

[supafly]

McDonald would be cheaper and could also play guard, which Koppen cannot.
That contract doesn't work in his favor if he doesn't win the starting job.

If Nick McDonald has that much talent then he would have made the 53 man roster allowing us to cut someone else last yr/this yr.

It's funny how one guy can come in and not mess up for a game or two, and that suddenly means that he's the odds on favorite to take out a 10 yr vet with experience, chemistry with Brady and the team, and leadership.

If Belichick felt that highly of Nick McDonald, then he would not have bothered signing Koppen for sure..and he may not have even bothered signing Connelly either, especially when both are making 3 million+ on average per year.

There is a talent depth chart for a reason, and although McDonald may end up being a future player here, he has not overtaken the better players with more experience and tenure.

 

[Sciz]

If Nick McDonald has that much talent then he would have made the 53 man roster allowing us to cut someone else last yr/this yr.

It's funny how one guy can come in and not mess up for a game or two, and that suddenly means that he's the odds on favorite to take out a 10 yr vet with experience, chemistry with Brady and the team, and leadership.

If Belichick felt that highly of Nick McDonald, then he would not have bothered signing Koppen for sure..and he may not have even bothered signing Connelly either, especially when both are making 3 million+ on average per year.

There is a talent depth chart for a reason, and although McDonald may end up being a future player here, he has not overtaken the better players with more experience and tenure.

The Pats supposedly really like him though, according to Bedard. That's what complicates things. What complicates things further is that they really like Wendell too. These are two guys that are 24 and 26. Nobody else in the interior line is any younger than 29, and that's getting up there. They'll need to find the right mix of filling long term needs and short term needs.

The Patriots feel very good about Nick McDonald - they think they stole one from the Packers - and Ryan Wendell

There?s a catch with Welker, Patriots - Page 4 - Boston.com

 

[supafly]

It's certainly possible that Connelly could beat Koppen out, as there is always competition.

The Mankins/Waters situations make Connelly's need at guard that much more of a factor, thus giving the starting center job to Koppen with Connelly likely starting the season at guard.

It is most likely a one year deal, and he may very well not be here in 2013, but he will certainly be here in 2012, which is exactly what you're arguing against.

Here is boston.com's take on it:

"If anything, I think the Koppen move is further insurance for Logan Mankins. Maybe Robert Gallery isn’t the best option at left guard should Mankins not be ready for the beginning of the season. At the least, Mankins will have to take it slow in training camp and in the preseason. Connolly would then be thrown back into the mix at left guard.

As far as the draft, if Koppen is on a one-year deal, then I don’t see it altering the thinking that the Patriots will be looking for an interior lineman. Connolly isn’t getting huge money, and two top players – Koppen and Brian Waters – could be gone after next season. There’s too much unknown about Nick McDonald, Ryan Wendell, and Marcus Cannon to bank on them."

Taking a look at Koppen's return - Extra Points - Boston.com

 

[supafly]

The Pats supposedly really like him though, according to Bedard. That's what complicates things. What complicates things further is that they really like Wendell too. These are two guys that are 24 and 26. Nobody else in the interior line is any younger than 29, and that's getting up there. They'll need to find the right mix of filling long term needs and short term needs.

There?s a catch with Welker, Patriots - Page 4 - Boston.com

I'm sure they do. They both have good versatility, and like you said--are young.

But to think that they will somehow beat Koppen out in 2012, thus sending him to the streets after the NEP just re signed him for at the very least this year, is beyond wishful thinking. It would also prove the NEP to be very poor businessmen, which they are not.

I agree that both Wendell and McDonald will likely be here for the future, beyond this yr and next.

Koppen will probably not be here in 2013, but to say that he now won't be here for this year 2012, is just plain silly.

They didn't suddenly re sign him just to cut him in camp, not for that kind of money anyway.

You mention short term vs long term, and I would think that both Wendell and McDonald are here for more long term, as opposed to Koppen's short term, which helps with the Mankins situation (and maybe even Waters, at least prepares them), as it allows them to move Connelly to guard--where he is actually better than at center.

 

[Armchair Quarterback]

There will be a competition to be the starter.

Comparing Koppen and his 10 yr tenure here to freaking Nick McDonald is hilarious.

The NEP did not just give Dan Koppen that kind of money to NOT make the 53 man roster, whether you try to spin signing bonuses, average per yr--whatever. The NEP are not in the habit of throwing money down the drain.

There may very well be a provision or two that would make it more beneficial for them to cut him after the 2012 season, but no matter how you look at it they fully expect him to make the team.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one, but with all due respect--you are talking out of your ass. You are claiming that the NEP just decided to give Koppen a 2 yr deal worth 6 million dollars and now he is going to have to suddenly beat out Ryan freaking Wendall and Nick McDonald for at least a backup job. That is beyond ridiculous, but you are entitled to your opinion.

Even if it's more of a backloaded (towards the second yr) deal, they are not in the habit of offering someone 3 million average per yr only to suddenly 'cut' him for no apparent reason.

Your reasoning as to why he started last yr is silly. How many of the same players were still on the team then? Connelly? Wendell? McDonald on the practice squad? They were all there. So was Mankins/Waters as guards. There was no 'lack of interior help' as you say.

Koppen does many things better than Connelly. He has a great rapport with Brady and the rest of the line. That chemisty between center and QB cannot be replaced, and never was. Just b/c Connelly stepped in does not mean everything went according to plan and no mistakes were made. Belichick brought him back for a reason, and that reason is to at the very least be a backup/depth guy here for 2012.

He is not earning a one year 975,000 vet minimum salary. I don't know why you'd even think that the NEP would go out of their way to re sign him for that kind of money if they plan on cutting him. You are letting your bias against Koppen and his "declining" skills in one area effect your common sense.

As far as patfanken etc and his opinion on Koppen, he is a well respected poster by me personally, and if he and I (and the majority of the world) share the opinion that Koppen has a strength vs the run, and more of a weakness vs the pass---then so be it...It's not an uncommon opinion at all. Koppen has had a tendency to have problems at times against certain interior pressures up the middle. Besides that he has been a great asset to this team.

Connolly and Wendell were hurt, Mcdonald wasn't on the team and Waters was signed only days before the start of the season.

I mentioned patfanken only because you were passing his assesment off as your own. You don't share opinions, you were mimicking his.

I could go on but I really don't care enough to respond more. It's tedious. It's pointless, especially with you just making **** up.

 

[supafly]

I mentioned patfanken only because you were passing his assesment off as your own. You don't share opinions, you were mimicking his.

I could go on but I really don't care enough to respond more. It's tedious. It's pointless, especially with you just making **** up.

I don't mimick anyone's opinion. The fact that Koppen is stronger vs the run than vs the pass is a very well known fact.

His only real weakness was against up the middle interior bullrushes, that's very well known.

It's insulting to say that "I mimicked patfanken" with my thoughts on Koppen.

If you go through my threads started and comments in both the reg forum and draft forum, you will see that I have backed Koppen for almost 4 straight yrs.

The opinions shared by patfanken, myself, and many others have been well known for many years now.

As far as "making stuff up," I don't know what I'd make up when the NEP just went out and re signed Dan Koppen for the 2012 season (and possibly for the 2013 season, although less likely).

Your thoughts that "they signed him today, to cut him in a few months" are a lot closer to making things up.

You are severely undervaluing Dan Koppen's potential and talent to at least be a back up. You are also NOT taking the Mankins/Waters situations into acct with regards to Dan Connelly either, as the move was likely made to free up Connelly and move him to guard.

 

[supafly]

Just to bring it down a notch or two Armchair QB--

I realize your opinion, and although we aren't seeing eye to eye, I still respect it.

However, that's just a WTF out of left-field comment to suggest that I "mimicked" anyone's thinking. If that was the case where our opinions matched up, then it is either coincidence or just your imagination. That's a pretty messed up thing to say though, in all fairness. It's a very widespread opinion in regards to Koppen's strengths/weaknesses.

patfanken may do a lot of good things, but he did not develop a trademark on the thought that Koppen struggles vs interior rushes.

I don't wanna let this go too far, b/c it's just not worth it. So I think it's best to let it go.

 

[Armchair Quarterback]

Just to bring it down a notch or two Armchair QB--

I realize your opinion, and although we aren't seeing eye to eye, I still respect it.

However, that's just a WTF out of left-field comment to suggest that I "mimicked" anyone's thinking. If that was the case where our opinions matched up, then it is either coincidence or just your imagination. That's a pretty messed up thing to say though, in all fairness. It's a very widespread opinion in regards to Koppen's strengths/weaknesses.

patfanken may do a lot of good things, but he did not develop a trademark on the thought that Koppen struggles vs interior rushes.

I don't wanna let this go too far, b/c it's just not worth it. So I think it's best to let it go.

Did you ever once in any of your 4000+ posts mention how Koppen is stronger against the run while Connolly is stronger against the pass? Or did you only say that several times today after PFK did.

I'll gladly apologize if you can show me just one post where you mentioned either one of those things. Shouldn't be too hard to do since it's such a "widespread opinion" and one you've apparently "made well known for years now."

 

[supafly]

Did you ever once in any of your 4000+ posts mention how Koppen is stronger against the run while Connolly is stronger against the pass? Or did you only say that several times today after PFK did.

I'll gladly apologize if you can show me just one post where you mentioned either one of those things. Shouldn't be too hard to do since it's such a "widespread opinion" and one you've apparently "made well known for years now."

I can honestly tell you that I am not even aware of PFK's comments, and I didn't even read this thread, as I simply picked up on whatever page we started talking about it on.

That is 100% sincere. Since you apparently don't trust me, and I have not earned your respect, I will now go through my past comments and threads, for about 15 min or so, since it is 3:45 in the morning.

I find the whole thing extremely insulting, especially since stating that "Koppen has struggled vs the interior rush (which can obviously only be on passing downs) while providing great support in the run game" is pretty much exactly what I said.

I cannot for the life of me, understand why you'd think that was a comment or thought that was specific to patfanken?? It's been widely talked about for many, many yrs, and probably started after the 2007 season.

 

[Fencer]

If somebody is claiming that the idea of Koppen having trouble against bull rushes is somehow new -- that's ludicrous. It's been said around here by many people who want to get rid of him, and agreed to by plenty who want to keep him even so.

Connolly frequently had Waters tap him on the arm so that he'd know when to hike the ball. So that's an advantage for Koppen, unless Connolly can overcome it in the off-season.

Koppen's lack of position flexibility is not a big issue, given that Connolly does have flexibility.

 

[supafly]

This is just an example of a post that I made last night at 12:30 am, before Koppen was re-signed this morning/afternoon.

It may not be 'good enough' to you, but it obviously insinuates the fact that my feelings were more geared toward Koppen being able to do some things better than Dan Connelly.

Unless PFK went back in time, I couldn't have 'stolen' his idea that Connelly is better vs the inetrior rushes, while Koppen 'does some things better.'

"Exactly the reasoning that I still have for resigning Koppen to a low (1-2) year deal. There are many attributes and traits that go into being a center here, and part of me still believes that he can do some things better than Connelly."

(you can find the comment on page 13 in the 'pick #27 disappointed' thread)

If that's not good enough for you, than I don't know (or really care to be completely honest with you).

You are just as able to go through my post search and find your own assessment, thus proving me WRONG...

Just the fact that you'd go so far out of your way to question my honesty and sincereness on such a widespread topic/opinion shows a bit of a lack of class from you.

Anyone will tell you that Koppen's main weakness is vs interior bullrushes/blitzes up the middle....and it's no secret that Koppen also does plenty of things better than Dan Connelly too.

You can go about this silly, child-like game, but remember that I offered you an olive branch, talked about how I respected your opinions, and stated that we should probably just let our differing opinions lie. Those solutions were apparently not good enough for you, and you are now the ONLY person to have ever questioned my honesty or sincereness on this entire forum.

 

[supafly]

If somebody is claiming that the idea of Koppen having trouble against bull rushes is somehow new -- that's ludicrous. It's been said around here by many people who want to get rid of him, and agreed to by plenty who want to keep him even so.

Connolly frequently had Waters tap him on the arm so that he'd know when to hike the ball. So that's an advantage for Koppen, unless Connolly can overcome it in the off-season.

Thank you. I was starting to feel as though I was in the freaking Twilight Zone over here.

 

[ATippett56]

If somebody is claiming that the idea of Koppen having trouble against bull rushes is somehow new -- that's ludicrous. It's been said around here by many people who want to get rid of him, and agreed to by plenty who want to keep him even so.

Connolly frequently had Waters tap him on the arm so that he'd know when to hike the ball. So that's an advantage for Koppen, unless Connolly can overcome it in the off-season.

Koppen's lack of position flexibility is not a big issue, given that Connolly does have flexibility.

Jets fans would eat their own for this kind of offensive line depth.

 

[supafly]

Just to try and steer the topic back on course, I believe that the signing was somewhat due to any possible uncertainty that may lie in the Mankins/Waters situations too. Or at the very least, that may have come into play.

While most of us expect Waters back, the possibility also lies that Mankins will be limited early on in TC, and possibly even start the yr on PUP.

By resigning Koppen, we can now use Connelly as a guard to start, or at least be prepared for any/all situations.

Gallery may provide depth as a tackle more than as a guard, which I did not initially expect to be honest. That helps with the Light/Vollmer situations, and provides good depth at the tackle position.

All in all, the offensive line is in pretty good shape heading into 2012, even despite the probable retirement by Light + the possible PUP of Mankins.

 

[supafly]

Jets fans would eat their own for this kind of offensive line depth.

Oh, absolutely. Another team that comes to mind is Pittsburgh.

I didn't read the link on the front page, but I swear I saw an article stating that we have one of the deepest offensive lines in the NFL. Even though it's opinion, I do believe it's pretty close to the truth.