Patriots ask for permission to speak with Josh McDaniels

[Ring 6]

No, Andy. You aren't focusing on reality. You are focusing on what your own biased opinion. Just because others have chosen to disagree with you.

Kindly explain how focussing on what Maroney actually produced is focussing on my own biased opinion rather than reality? It is kind of the definition of the opposite of what you are saying.

It's called the total body of work, Andy. That is what you are ignoring. McDaniels body of work with talent evaluation is horrible. Just because you want to ignore it doesn't change that reality.

What do I want to ignore? I am discussing it. You are the one who is anwering in rhetoric and riddles. A fact or 2 might be nice.

YOU are the one singling out Maroney and Jackson and calling that the sum total of McDaniels, making him accountable for those players even though he didn't have the authority to make the pick.
If you want to argue total body of work, argue it. Don't make it up as an excuse when you are wrong.

Daboll actually ran a very good offense in Miami.

What?
You think the Miami Dolphins had a VERY GOOD OFFENSE THIS YEAR?
22nd in yards, 20th in points? How is bottom 1/3 in the league VERY GOOD?
Even you don't believe that.
His team was 6th in points allowed and was 6-10 and you think that is a VERY GOOD OFFENSE. Are you on drugs?

Especially considering the poor talent he has at QB. The same can be said for Carolina and when he was with the Jets.

He was never in Carolina.

His offenses were good. Not outstanding. But good.

No they all sucked.
It wasn't his offense with the Jets. And even those were ranked 26, 16 in yards and 25, 9 in points.
You said he was as good an OC as McDaniel.
In 3 years as an OC he has been
In yards
32
29
22

In Points
29
31
20

That is an average of 27.7 and 26.7
Please explain to me how that is VERY GOOD and as good as McDaniel as an OC

Especially when you consider the talent he was handed.

So he is as good because you think he would do well if he had better players even though he has sucked every year as an OC?

Clearly, you need to stop with your BS, get off your arse and get yourself a copy of War Room. Daboll was against both Maroney and Jackson.

Daboll was a receiver coach. He has failed everywhere. Are you seriously telling me that this is the guy you want to build your franchise around?

It wasn't just ONE guy. That is the problem with you. You make these absurd claims off of one smidgen of something someone says and then you act like you are dealing with FACT. The reality is that your BS is tiresome. Get off your knees, zip up McDaniels' zipper and stop with this garbage already.

Ah, here we go. You can't back up what you say, so you throw in the obligatory gay joke.
Nice job.
I am so glad I can have a discussion with someone who has the mental abilities and maturity level of a 13 year old.
You should be embarrassed for yourself.
I have no interest in discussing football with you any longer.
Your opinions are foolish, your attitude is immature and you are so self conscious that when you are shown that you are wrong, you must resort to personal attacks and gay jokes.

You are truly pathetic.
Please find someone else to blather your idiocy at.

Listen. I understand you have an issue with reading comprehension.

Haha. I see what you did there. You cannot discuss like a man, so you have to throw an insult, implying I am stupid.
Your mother must be so proud.

Clearly you don't understand the difference between GOOD and GREAT. I said that Daboll was good as an OC. He's shown it with 3 different teams.

You are wrong. He stinks, and has shown it with 2 teams. He was not OC with the Jets, and he never worked for Carolina like you seem to want to believe.
Every offense he has coordinated has been awful.

Maybe you should actually watch other teams every now and then so you actually can look intelligent when you start ripping on people you are absolutely clueless about.

Like I should watch his games in Carolina? Or when he wasn't the OC in NY?

See above, I wrote it one paragraph to early.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

I don't think that situation was as black and white as you portrayed it to be.

Belichick took Laurence Maroney, against the opinions of the position coaches and national scouts, because McDaniels' brother said he was good. That is fact in the book. You don't see anything awry with that? You are free to have your own interpretation, as am I, however there are other readers here who you need to also take up your argument with. I also think if you're going to be fair about this, you should acknowledge that there are posters here vehemently defending McDaniels without even having read the book itself.

 

[Ring 6]

You aren't too intelligent, are you? Those numbers don't mean sh!t. Not to mention that Daboll has been an OC more than 3 years. But thanks for opening your trap and showing that you don't know a damn thing about what you are talking about.

.
Just for kicks, please explain how the yards and points by an offense mean 'shlt' about the job an OC does.
What are you using to base your opinion he has been a VERY GOOD OC on?

Please list the OC jobs Daboll has had that the NFL is hiding from the rest of us.

Ironically you call me stupid for being right. Would that make you stupid when you actually learn that Daboll was not an OC before 2009?

 

[DropKickFlutie]

YOU are the one singling out Maroney and Jackson and calling that the sum total of McDaniels, making him accountable for those players even though he didn't have the authority to make the pick.

You think the Miami Dolphins had a VERY GOOD OFFENSE THIS YEAR?
22nd in yards, 20th in points? How is bottom 1/3 in the league VERY GOOD?

His team was 6th in points allowed and was 6-10 and you think that is a VERY GOOD OFFENSE. Are you on drugs?
Daboll was a receiver coach. He has failed everywhere. Are you seriously telling me that this is the guy you want to build your franchise around?

If you want to talk about sum total, look at McDaniels' track record in Denver or in St Louis. You can say it was Belichick that was ultimately accountable, but again Belichick has to assume that the info he gets is usable, but we know that Belichick has acted on bad info.

You quoted a lot of stats and slammed Daboll pretty hard, but then how can you at the same ignore time the fact that the Rams this year were dead last in points, yards, 3rd down, etc etc even worse than a lot of teams that had far worse rosters or more devastating injuries? You can't be consistent without bringing in the talent/injury excuse, but you don't apply that same leniency to Daboll.

That's a really big statement to say Daboll failed everywhere. He won rings with the Patriots and did a good job developing no-name receivers while he was here. Belichick has proven he can take anyone and make them look good, not just players but also his assistant coaches. It isn't clear that Daboll wouldn't have had just as much success if he stayed in New England and didn't leave after the 2006 draft debacle.

 

[Deus Irae]

Belichick took Laurence Maroney, against the opinions of the position coaches and national scouts, because McDaniels' brother said he was good. That is fact in the book...

That's not the "fact in the book". You're either misremembering or being deliberately misleading.

 

[Rob0729]

Belichick took Laurence Maroney, against the opinions of the position coaches and national scouts, because McDaniels' brother said he was good. That is fact in the book. You don't see anything awry with that? You are free to have your own interpretation, as am I, however there are other readers here who you need to also take up your argument with. I also think if you're going to be fair about this, you should acknowledge that there are posters here vehemently defending McDaniels without even having read the book itself.

Again, that is one pick. I spoke with a friend tonight who did read the book and he said Holly claims it was Urban Meyer who was the one who convinced Belichick to take Jackson, not McDaniels. In fact, from what he could remember that was Maroney was the only player who McDaniels influenced and that was a special circumstance because McDaniels' brother was a coach on the staff on the Golden Gophers.

Again, if that is the case, I think Belichick is not going to listen to McDaniels to take a player from Columbia or the Ivy League conference higher than the seventh round.

You claim to have read the book yet you cannot come up with a single other instance where Holley stated McDaniels influenced the decision. Yes, we all know that Holley says that McDaniels' brother recommendation was a big factor in Belichick taking him. But Jackson who was clearly the worse pick was credited to Urban Meyer by Holley.

You are taking one instance where McDaniels had a lot influence because he had inside information due to his relationship with the staff of the player on the team and acting like McDaniels was making all the offensive player decisions.

 

[Ring 6]

That's not a fair comparison.

How is listing their career achievement unfair?

Let's compare them in their years without the guidance of Belichick. Daboll didn't have great talent to work with and didn't have huge success after New England. On the other hand, without Brady and Belichick, McDaniels lost almost all of his last 20 games in Denver, and in St Louis with Bradford and Steven Jackson ran the worst offense in the league in points (11 a game), yards, etc etc.

The statement was the Daboll is as good an OC as McDaniels. Daboll has run nothing but awful offenses.
Sure you can discount wat McDaniels did by saying having good players makes it not count but Daboll has not seen anything coming close to resembling success.

Nobody will ever know why Daboll was passed over in New England,

Sure we do. Bill Belichick felt McDaniels was better.

but regardless of this debate Bill Belichick has already proven multiple times that he can take no-name coaches from no-name college programs and make them look really good as coordinators.

That is a total disservice to the men who did the job. BB didn't do the job for them. They are not mindless robots. OBrien was considered a good enough coach to be hired as HC at a major program today.

It's not unlike what Belichick has done in the past with no-name players like David Givens, Cassel, etc etc. Belichick just makes the coaches and players around him look a little or a lot better than they are compared to after they leave.

This is just a fantasy pondering.

 

[jays52]

Belichick took Laurence Maroney, against the opinions of the position coaches and national scouts, because McDaniels' brother said he was good. That is fact in the book. You don't see anything awry with that? You are free to have your own interpretation, as am I, however there are other readers here who you need to also take up your argument with. I also think if you're going to be fair about this, you should acknowledge that there are posters here vehemently defending McDaniels without even having read the book itself.

Thanks for solidifying my point. You are presenting an argument in a very simple context that does not take into account the variables involved in the decision. Did McDaniel's brother, who was at the time a positional coach at Minnesota, give a high recommendation? Yes, yes he did. However, that was mentioned as a side comment within four pages worth of plot. Do I sense something awry with that? No, I see nothing out of the norm with a college positional coach giving a high recommendation for one of his players. That said, I do see something out of the norm in citing a half-sentence as the lucid truth in a nebulous sea of obfuscation.

Belichick flipped a coin between athleticism, what was pretty clearly a high level tape, and recommendations of his scouts. He chose on the wrong side. Executives, irrespective of vocation, make similar decisions all the time and are often wrong. Such is the nature of anything. I don't have a problem with that process, and look at it as a learning experience for both parties. The problem is that you are viewing a normal part of the process as being indicative of some fatal flaw which is plainly wrong. I'm sorry if I'm coming off like an a-hole, but the truth is the truth, and you are making a mountain out of a molehill because it suits your confirmation bias.

 

[Ring 6]

If you want to talk about sum total, look at McDaniels' track record in Denver or in St Louis. You can say it was Belichick that was ultimately accountable, but again Belichick has to assume that the info he gets is usable, but we know that Belichick has acted on bad info.

Maroney worked out just about they average of what a player in his draft spot is supposed to. You are acting like it was Ryan Leaf, Mike Williams, Reggie Dupard, or some other egregious misread of talent. Maroney didn't turn out great but he was a servicable player not the worst draft pick ever.

You quoted a lot of stats and slammed Daboll pretty hard, but then how can you at the same ignore time the fact that the Rams this year were dead last in points, yards, 3rd down, etc etc even worse than a lot of teams that had far worse rosters or more devastating injuries? You can't be consistent without bringing in the talent/injury excuse, but you don't apply that same leniency to Daboll.

I was consistent, I included every season as OC or HC and made zero excuses for either.
McDaniel has one poor year of offense on his resume. Daboll has zero good ones.
This is a ridiculous argument to even compare the 2 based on what they have accomplished thus far.

That's a really big statement to say Daboll failed everywhere. He won rings with the Patriots and did a good job developing no-name receivers while he was here.

It was incorrect, I ,meant to say AS AN OC, and that is true.

Belichick has proven he can take anyone and make them look good, not just players but also his assistant coaches. It isn't clear that Daboll wouldn't have had just as much success if he stayed in New England and didn't leave after the 2006 draft debacle.

Thats BS. You can't say a guy is good because maybe he would have had success he didn't. Is Michael Bishop just as good a QB as tom Brady because if BB chose him instead he may have had just as much success? Thats the leap you are making here.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

But Jackson who was clearly the worse pick was credited to Urban Meyer by Holley.

That is a whole different topic, I feel that Belichick has been burned more times by Urban Meyer's draft recommendations than he has benefitted from them. I get the feeling that Meyer has been more about getting his guys drafted than other college coaches (Patriot farm teams) who might have given Belichick more accurate info in the past.

As for the book, I actually read it, while I noticed earlier today you were trashing other posters here vehemently about events that took place when you didn't even read the book yourself. That is pretty funny.

As for what any of us can or cannot prove, all we have is Holley's book, plus a lot of circumstantial evidence like:
- The Patriot drafts before 2006 and after 2008 were great, and dramatically worse from 2006-2008.
- The Patriots after the 2006 draft debacle then traded for Moss and Welker, bypassing offensive draft picks, and for the next few years basically only made offensive lineman picks (probably recommended by Scar). The only major offensive draft pick after that 2006 bust was 3rd-rd O'Connell, another player that McDaniels worked out.
- The Denver Broncos were decimated by a dozen+ poor draft, roster, and trade decisions that ended in losing almost all of the last 20 games before McDaniels was fired.
- The Rams offense this year was dead last, worse than the Colts, Chiefs, Vikings, every team that had catastrophic events happen to their offenses.

It's circumstantial evidence but they are facts that point to a conclusion. Meanwhile, all I've read coming from you have been excuses. You've been on here all day defending McDaniels' personnel decisions, vehemently attacking multiple fans here, and it is odd how much you care about it.

 

[Rob0729]

Thanks for solidifying my point. You are presenting an argument in a very simple context that does not take into account the variables involved in the decision. Did McDaniel's brother, who was at the time a positional coach at Minnesota, give a high recommendation? Yes, yes he did. However, that was mentioned as a side comment within four pages worth of plot. Do I sense something awry with that? No, I see nothing out of the norm with a college positional coach giving a high recommendation for one of his players. That said, I do see something out of the norm in citing a half-sentence as the lucid truth in a nebulous sea of obfuscation.

Belichick flipped a coin between athleticism, what was pretty clearly a high level tape, and recommendations of his scouts. He chose on the wrong side. Executives, irrespective of vocation, make similar decisions all the time and are often wrong. Such is the nature of anything. I don't have a problem with that process, and look at it as a learning experience for both parties. The problem is that you are viewing a normal part of the process as being indicative of some fatal flaw which is plainly wrong. I'm sorry if I'm coming off like an a-hole, but the truth is the truth, and you are making a mountain out of a molehill because it suits your confirmation bias.

I still don't get how people have taken one isolated instance where McDaniels was in a position to have information that scouts didn't have privy to because his brother was on the Golden Gopher's staff and Belichick took that advice and selected Maroney, into McDaniels was making all the offensive player picks in the draft. If the janitor had a brother who worked on the Golden Gopher's staff and gave Belichick the same information and Belichick took Maroney, did the janitor make the Maroney selection?

Maroney wasn't a great first round pick. Wasn't the worst, but clearly not the best. McDaniels' brother either gaves biased information or just isn't a great scout himself.

Whatever the case, I have yet to see anyone provide any proof that this wasn't an isolated incident from Holley's book or anywhere else. Holley says it was Urban Meyer who influenced Belichick about Jackson which was a horrible pick.

 

[Ring 6]

Belichick took Laurence Maroney, against the opinions of the position coaches and national scouts, because McDaniels' brother said he was good. That is fact in the book. You don't see anything awry with that? You are free to have your own interpretation, as am I, however there are other readers here who you need to also take up your argument with. I also think if you're going to be fair about this, you should acknowledge that there are posters here vehemently defending McDaniels without even having read the book itself.

As opposed to misrepresenting what was in it?

 

[Deus Irae]

Thanks for solidifying my point. You are presenting an argument in a very simple context that does not take into account the variables involved in the decision. Did McDaniel's brother, who was at the time a positional coach at Minnesota, give a high recommendation? Yes, yes he did. However, that was mentioned as a side comment within four pages worth of plot. Do I sense something awry with that? No, I see nothing out of the norm with a college positional coach giving a high recommendation for one of his players. That said, I do see something out of the norm in citing a half-sentence as the lucid truth in a nebulous sea of obfuscation.

Belichick flipped a coin between athleticism, what was pretty clearly a high level tape, and recommendations of his scouts. He chose on the wrong side. Executives, irrespective of vocation, make similar decisions all the time and are often wrong. Such is the nature of anything. I don't have a problem with that process, and look at it as a learning experience for both parties. The problem is that you are viewing a normal part of the process as being indicative of some fatal flaw which is plainly wrong. I'm sorry if I'm coming off like an a-hole, but the truth is the truth, and you are making a mountain out of a molehill because it suits your confirmation bias.

You're dead on, and this line shows it pretty clearly, I think:

Even with the support of the two McDanielses, the numbers didn’t match up. Maroney didn’t have enough of an in-house consensus to be ranked as high as he was on the Patriots’ board, yet he remained there.

In other words, he was somehow rated higher than even the McDaniels' evaluation would have bumped him up to.

And, again, I'm still waiting for McDaniels to be given all his props for Asante.

 

[Keyser Söze]

Hell yes bring him back, I'd be stoked.

 

[jays52]

Whatever the case, I have yet to see anyone provide any proof that this wasn't an isolated incident from Holley's book or anywhere else.

...because it simply doesn't exist. I'll take confirmation bias for 500, Alex.

 

[Deus Irae]

...

As for what any of us can or cannot prove, all we have is Holley's book, plus a lot of circumstantial evidence like:
- The Patriot drafts before 2006 and after 2008 were great, and dramatically worse from 2006-2008.
- The Patriots after the 2006 draft debacle then traded for Moss and Welker, bypassing offensive draft picks, and for the next few years basically only made offensive lineman picks (probably recommended by Scar). The only major offensive draft bust during that period was 3rd-rd O'Connell, another player that McDaniels worked out.
- The Denver Broncos were decimated by a dozen+ poor draft, roster, and trade decisions that ended in losing almost all of the last 20 games before McDaniels was fired.
- The Rams offense this year was dead last, worse than the Colts, Chiefs, Vikings, every team that had catastrophic events happen to their offenses.

It's circumstantial evidence but they are facts that point to a conclusion. Meanwhile, all I've read coming from you have been excuses. You've been on here all day defending McDaniels' personnel decisions, vehemently attacking multiple fans here, and it is odd how much you care about it.

No, it's a lot of garbage, is what it is, and the reasons why have been shown to you time and again.

 

[TPL]

I think NFL Network just reported Josh McDaniels was just relieved of his duties in St. Louis and expected to return to New England?

 

[Keyser Söze]

Bruinz had me for a bit until he said the numbers don't mean ****. What else are we going to go off of?

 

[Ring 6]

I think NFL Network just reported Josh McDaniels was just relieved of his duties in St. Louis and expected to return to New England?

I wonder if he can be added as some type of consultant for the playoffs.
Clearly he knows the system as well as almost anyone, and another set of eyes can't hurt.

 

[Deus Irae]

I think NFL Network just reported Josh McDaniels was just relieved of his duties in St. Louis and expected to return to New England?

I don't have confirmation of that, but there is a potentially good reason being reported, if it's true:

At least one source in St. Louis believes he’s going to pick the Rams. Howard Balzer of espn101.com says Fisher is “on the verge” of accepting the Rams coaching job.

Report: Fisher “on the verge” of becoming Rams coach | ProFootballTalk

The reporter may be off on his interpretation, but it would at least make sense, given that most have felt that a McDaniels/Fisher pairing was never going to happen.