Patriots ask for permission to speak with Josh McDaniels

[Rob0729]

Who traded for Kyle Orton? Who made the personnel moves behind that defense?

You have a long list of excuses, that much is clear. I also don't take kindly to wild accusations, which you seem to shoot off vehemently at multiple people here when things aren't going your way. I'm still waiting to see if ArmChair QB comes back to respond to you, or if he simply put you on his "ignore list" as I am close to doing.

Again, I have said McDaniels is not a great personnel evaluator. Good thing he won't and never had a huge influence on the draft with the Patriots other than one pick.

maverick, you continue and continue to try to throw a red herring.

We both agree that McDaniels sucks as a GM. Wasn't and won't be his responsibility as an Offensive Coordinator. Again, other than one isolated incident, you have yet to show any proof McDaniels influenced one draft pick or personnel move between 2006-2008.

You have had an agenda against this guy for years and it has already gotten you banned from this board once.

 

[Rob0729]

And how do you know this, exactly? Is this more false claims made by you, without actual knowledge as you did earlier when arguing with ArmchairQB about a book you never read?

This wasn't discussed in the book, but it was discussed ad nauseam in 2007 when Belichick stated that he was focusing on the defense and spent most of the game with his back towards the field when the offense was on the field.

 

[Ring 6]

You're right, that was your heated ugly debate with DaBruinz, not mine. But I had to chime in because you weren't being fair in comparing both coaches outside of their involvement with Brady/Belichick, who simply make coaches and players look better.

No, it is unfair to discount the job the coach did by saying he had nothing to do with it.

In terms of saying Daboll is not as good right now, they haven't had the same careers because McDaniels benefitted from Belichick/Brady, so it's hard to compare. I do find it interesting that you will use excuses to defend one guy but then use stats to trash one guy, being inconsistent on a selective basis.

What? Where did I make any excuses for anyone? You are making that up.
I showed their actual, real live, results, and that is what I base my opinion on.
If you know anything about me, you know that I have never, ever made the argument that results should be overridden by perceived circumstance.
There is nothing inconsistent in my posts. Perhaps there is in your reading.

But you can't say that Daboll couldn't have been just as good, especially when one looks at what Bill O'Brien accomplished here.

It isn't about saying what could or couldn't have been.
Both men have had careers, and that is what they should be judged upon.

BOB is a guy who came from a no-name program at Duke where they went 1-22 before he joined New England, with no prior success.

There are many intelligence, execellent coaches in poor college programs that do not have the athletes to compete. To expect success at Duke in football is silly.

Belichick did the same thing with McDaniels. Belichick has a track record, not unlike what he's done with no-name players, of coaching up and making his offensive coordinators look good.

What is your argument?
How does the background of successful OCs under BB have anything to do with arguing that Brian Daboll is as good an OC as Josh mcDaniel.
You are what you accomplish, not what someone thinks you might have under different circumstances.
If you cannot accept that, there is no point in going on with this discussion.

 

[strngplyr]

With the possibility of McDaniels returning this season, I wonder if he'd be coming in to observe the changes, consult with BOB and help him in his transition, or replace BOB and let him focus on his Penn State job.....


Man, this postseason has been awesome for stories and sub-plots already, and it's not even the Patriots offseason yet.

I could see him helping, but how well does he know the personnel? The offense looks very different from when he was here. I can't see him replacing, but can certainly see him assisting and being useful. An extra coach helping the players can never hurt, as long as they're on the same page.

 

[Deus Irae]

Who traded for Kyle Orton?

You can't possibly be this ignorant of what went on in Denver, and I'm not going to go over the entire Cutler thing again, but I'll sum up briefly:

Cutler was pissed about Shanahan getting axed
Cutler was worried that his O.C. would get axed and cried about it to Bowlen, before McDaniels was even hired
Cutler lied about what happened, and was found to be lying with his own words
Bowlen, not McDaniels, made the decision to trade Cutler
The Broncos got great value in the trade

P.S. The Marshall situation wasn't on McDaniels, either, as both a timeline of events and Marshall's own words have made abundantly clear.

Who made the personnel moves behind that defense?

You have a long list of excuses, that much is clear. I also don't take kindly to wild accusations, which you seem to shoot off vehemently at multiple people here when things aren't going your way. I'm still waiting to see if ArmChair QB comes back to respond to you, or if he simply put you on his "ignore list" as I am close to doing.

What bad personnel move was it that Dumervil was lost for the entire second season before he played a down, and why are you choosing to ignore something as brilliant as the Brian Dawkins signing? For that matter, and looking at offense, Thomas was a draft pick who was injured before he ever played a down and is just starting to establish himself this season because of recurrent injury to that same foot. How is that a McDaniels personnel blunder?

 

[strngplyr]

You can't possibly be this clueless, and I'm not going to go over the entire Cutler thing again, but I'll sum up briefly:

Cutler was pissed about Shanahan getting axed
Cutler was worried that his O.C. would get axed and cried about it to Bowlen, before McDaniels was even hired
Cutler lied about what happened, and was found to be lying with his own words
Bowlen, not McDaniels, made the decision to trade Cutler
The Broncos got great value in the trade

P.S. The Marshall situation wasn't on McDaniels, either, as both a timeline of events and Marshall's own words have made abundantly clear.



What personnel move was it that Dumervil was lost for the entire second season before he played a down?

Wasn't Cutler also very upset when he heard the rumors that McDaniels tried to bring Cassel with him?

They just wouldn't coexist. No other way around it.

 

[Ring 6]

You're right, that was your heated ugly debate with DaBruinz, not mine.

It was only heated and ugly when Dabruinz started name calling and gay jokes.

 

[Rob0729]

Wasn't Cutler also very upset when he heard the rumors that McDaniels tried to bring Cassel with him?

They just wouldn't coexist. No other way around it.

Yeah, McDaniels screwed up by not getting Cassel, not with Cutler. Cutler isn't a QB who can run the Patriots' offense. He is a dumber Drew Bledsoe. We saw how Bledsoe struggled with this offense. Both guys are gunslingers with cannons of an arm.

Where I would blame McDaniels was going to a team with an established QB who was totally wrong for the system he was trying to run.

 

[Deus Irae]

Wasn't Cutler also very upset when he heard the rumors that McDaniels tried to bring Cassel with him?

They just wouldn't coexist. No other way around it.

Cutler got upset about that, but the other things had already happened. The Cassel situation became the cat's paw for Cutler.

 

[Ring 6]

I could see him helping, but how well does he know the personnel? The offense looks very different from when he was here. I can't see him replacing, but can certainly see him assisting and being useful. An extra coach helping the players can never hurt, as long as they're on the same page.

I think as a consultant up in the box who knows the system and Brady very well, he could be an extra set of eyes that may pick something up that could be exploited. You can't turn the offense over to him, but you can have him observe and give trusted input.
That will also help him get familiar with the players for when he tells BB who to draft.

 

[Ring 6]

Yeah, McDaniels screwed up by not getting Cassel, not with Cutler. Cutler isn't a QB who can run the Patriots' offense. He is a dumber Drew Bledsoe. We saw how Bledsoe struggled with this offense. Both guys are gunslingers with cannons of an arm.

Where I would blame McDaniels was going to a team with an established QB who was totally wrong for the system he was trying to run.

You can't turn down a HC job for a reason like that.

 

[Rob0729]

You can't turn down a HC job for a reason like that.

Well, the question is whether he would have had more opportunities. I know a lot of people said if he just waited, he could have gone to KC. But I think Pioli wouldn't have taken McDaniels out of respect to Belichick and the unwritten rule of when you get promoted to a new team you don't rob from your old team. But McDaniels would have been hot in 2010 too.

 

[Ring 6]

Well, the question is whether he would have had more opportunities. I know a lot of people said if he just waited, he could have gone to KC. But I think Pioli wouldn't have taken McDaniels out of respect to Belichick and the unwritten rule of when you get promoted to a new team you don't rob from your old team. But McDaniels would have been hot in 2010 too.

There was no reason for him to turn down Denver.
If Cutler wasnt a jack0ff he could have been decent until replaced.
I don't think any coach with any real ability would ever look at a job and think he would fail, unless there was a lack of support from ownership.
Look at BB. He pretty much cut the whole team and won a SB in year 2.
HC of an NFL is a fleeting opportunity. If you turn one down, you may not get another and that is a lifelong goal for many of these guys.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

I really don't feel like arguing anymore because I think Rob ended up on a similar page on where I was. I see he acknowledged that McDaniels isn't the best personnel evaluator in the league, but I agree that McDaniels may not have as much input with that if he comes back. But, since there were some recent comments from other posters, I'll humor this other Denver topic for a bit just to see what their responses are since there seems to be a fervent excuse for every move and I'm curious how they spin it.

We don't need to rehash the whole Jay Cutler thing because that just plays right into the debate trap of hyper focusing on one thing while deliberately ignoring the entire mountain of evidence.

- Jay Cutler for Kyle Orton
- Brandon Marshall
- Peyton Hillis for Brady Quinn
- Trading Alphonso Smith for Dan Gronkowski
- Tony Scheffler
- Laurence Maroney for a 4th round pick

Denver draft picks 2009
1/12 Knowshon Moreno
1/18 Robert Ayers
2/37 Alphonso Smith
2/48 Darcel McBath
2/64 Richard Quinn
4/114 David Bruton
4/132 Seth Olsen
5/141 Kenny McKinley
6/174 Brandstater
7/225 Blake Schlueter

Denver draft picks 2010
1/22 Demaryius Thomas
1/25 Tim Tebow
2/45 Zane Beadles
3/80 J.D. Walton
3/87 Eric Decker
5/187 Perrish Cox
6/183 Eric Olsen
7/225 Syd'Quan Thompson
7/232 Jammie Kirlew

Also a quote:
"Denver coach Josh McDaniels played a big role in the drafting of O’Connell in New England, and McDaniels put a claim on O’Connell last year when New England cut him. "
Kevin O\'Connell - AFC West Blog - ESPN

 

[Ring 6]

I really don't feel like arguing anymore because I think Rob ended up on a similar page on where I was. I see he acknowledged that McDaniels isn't the best personnel evaluator in the league, but I agree that McDaniels may not have as much input with that if he comes back. But, since there were some recent comments from other posters, I'll humor this other Denver topic for a bit just to see what their responses are since there seems to be a fervent excuse for every move and I'm curious how they spin it.

We don't need to rehash the whole Jay Cutler thing because that just plays right into the debate trap of hyper focusing on one thing while deliberately ignoring the entire mountain of evidence.

- Jay Cutler for Kyle Orton
- Brandon Marshall
- Peyton Hillis for Brady Quinn
- Trading Alphonso Smith for Dan Gronkowski
- Tony Scheffler
- Laurence Maroney for a 4th round pick

Denver draft picks 2009
1/12 Knowshon Moreno
1/18 Robert Ayers
2/37 Alphonso Smith
2/48 Darcel McBath
2/64 Richard Quinn
4/114 David Bruton
4/132 Seth Olsen
5/141 Kenny McKinley
6/174 Brandstater
7/225 Blake Schlueter

Denver draft picks 2010
1/22 Demaryius Thomas
1/25 Tim Tebow
2/45 Zane Beadles
3/80 J.D. Walton
3/87 Eric Decker
5/187 Perrish Cox
6/183 Eric Olsen
7/225 Syd'Quan Thompson
7/232 Jammie Kirlew

Also a quote:
"Denver coach Josh McDaniels played a big role in the drafting of O’Connell in New England, and McDaniels put a claim on O’Connell last year when New England cut him. "
Kevin O\'Connell - AFC West Blog - ESPN

You do know that McDaniels was the HC and not the GM right?

 

[Deus Irae]

... We don't need to rehash the whole Jay Cutler thing because that just plays right into the debate trap of hyper focusing on one thing while deliberately ignoring the entire mountain of evidence.

Debate trap? You're the one who brought up the Orton trade.

- Jay Cutler for Kyle Orton
- Brandon Marshall
- Peyton Hillis for Brady Quinn
- Trading Alphonso Smith for Dan Gronkowski
- Tony Scheffler
- Laurence Maroney for a 4th round pick

1.) You don't want to rehash Cutler, but you point to it again?

2.) Marshall's situation is already known to anyone trying to be honest.

3.) How's Hillis been working out this year, and I'm not talking about just his production?

4.) Scheffler was another one who was complaining, as, again, anyone who's paid attention to the Denver situation knows.

5.) Maroney was a bad call. McDaniels didn't know that he was done.

6.) Smith wasn't working out in Denver. I'd put him in as a definite problem, but whether draft or impatience, I'm not sure.


So four of your six points here aren't valid points, one was about a 4th round pick and something that happens with teams and players all the time, and one was a genuinely bad call.

 

[Deus Irae]

Denver draft picks 2009
1/12 Knowshon Moreno
1/18 Robert Ayers
2/37 Alphonso Smith
2/48 Darcel McBath
2/64 Richard Quinn
4/114 David Bruton
4/132 Seth Olsen
5/141 Kenny McKinley
6/174 Brandstater
7/225 Blake Schlueter

Rough first draft by a guy who was in his first year as head coach and had to deal with all kinds of nonsense. It happens. However.....

Denver draft picks 2010
1/22 Demaryius Thomas
1/25 Tim Tebow
2/45 Zane Beadles
3/80 J.D. Walton
3/87 Eric Decker
5/187 Perrish Cox
6/183 Eric Olsen
7/225 Syd'Quan Thompson
7/232 Jammie Kirlew

5 starters

 

[Ring 6]

I really don't feel like arguing anymore because I think Rob ended up on a similar page on where I was. I see he acknowledged that McDaniels isn't the best personnel evaluator in the league, but I agree that McDaniels may not have as much input with that if he comes back. But, since there were some recent comments from other posters, I'll humor this other Denver topic for a bit just to see what their responses are since there seems to be a fervent excuse for every move and I'm curious how they spin it.

We don't need to rehash the whole Jay Cutler thing because that just plays right into the debate trap of hyper focusing on one thing while deliberately ignoring the entire mountain of evidence.

- Jay Cutler for Kyle Orton
- Brandon Marshall
- Peyton Hillis for Brady Quinn
- Trading Alphonso Smith for Dan Gronkowski
- Tony Scheffler
- Laurence Maroney for a 4th round pick

Denver draft picks 2009
1/12 Knowshon Moreno
1/18 Robert Ayers
2/37 Alphonso Smith
2/48 Darcel McBath
2/64 Richard Quinn
4/114 David Bruton
4/132 Seth Olsen
5/141 Kenny McKinley
6/174 Brandstater
7/225 Blake Schlueter

Denver draft picks 2010
1/22 Demaryius Thomas
1/25 Tim Tebow
2/45 Zane Beadles
3/80 J.D. Walton
3/87 Eric Decker
5/187 Perrish Cox
6/183 Eric Olsen
7/225 Syd'Quan Thompson
7/232 Jammie Kirlew

Also a quote:
"Denver coach Josh McDaniels played a big role in the drafting of O’Connell in New England, and McDaniels put a claim on O’Connell last year when New England cut him. "
Kevin O\'Connell - AFC West Blog - ESPN

Just to be clear, are you trashing those drafts?
2010 produced 2 starting OL on a good OL, their top 2 WRs and their starting QB. 09 produced a RB who is good when he can stay healthy and a starting DE. Plus other bit parts. I think you can find more teams that walked away with less from those 2 drafts than you can find that walked away with more.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

You aren't too intelligent, are you? Those numbers don't mean sh!t. Not to mention that Daboll has been an OC more than 3 years. But thanks for opening your trap and showing that you don't know a damn thing about what you are talking about.

LOL Once again your arrogance is topped by your ignorance. Daboll left here in 2007 when Josh was named the OC and Bill wouldn't even give him the QB coaches job. He ran to the swamp because Eric said he could coordinate what passed for QB's on the JET roster... Eric couldn't make him an OC had he wanted to because that wasn't within his relm as half assed HC in that dysfunctional organization. When they both got canned two years later, and the idiot in Cleveland grabbed Eric like he was some prized candidate, Daboll was named the OC of the Cleveland Browns. A year later when he realized he'd made a mistake, Holmgren was brought in. The following season after two years on the job for each, Holmgren fired both the HC and the OC. This year Miami inexplicably hired Daboll as their OC. He hasn't been fired yet, but he will be. 3 years as an OC.

He and Davidson, who left with RAC in 2005 when he was informed he was not going to be promoted to OC following Charlie's departure and later was Fox's OC in Carolina and didn't get invited to Denver and is currently Mike Tice's assistant OL coach in Minnesota, both left here because they got passed on the offensive coaching depth chart by Josh.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Well, the question is whether he would have had more opportunities. I know a lot of people said if he just waited, he could have gone to KC. But I think Pioli wouldn't have taken McDaniels out of respect to Belichick and the unwritten rule of when you get promoted to a new team you don't rob from your old team. But McDaniels would have been hot in 2010 too.

That job was seen as a plum one because of the owners previous track record of patience, but that patience had recently allowed Shanny to create a monster Josh was left to grapple with in his wake. If not for Cutler and Marshall and that idiot fan base that now worships Josh's biggest draft mistake - not to mention Scar's idiot kid... it might have worked out. That is why Bill gave Josh his blessing. He'd paid his dues in Bill's opinion and it was a job with solid potential until you scratched the surface and uncovered the rot permeating the existing roster not to mention the brains of the fanbase.

Interesting to note that the genius GM who thought Cutler was worth a player and two firsts in trade got fired this week and the braintrust that traded for Marshall is all but gone in Miami with just Ireland still hanging on by his fingernails...