Patriots ask for permission to speak with Josh McDaniels

[wistahpatsfan]

With the possibility of McDaniels returning this season, I wonder if he'd be coming in to observe the changes, consult with BOB and help him in his transition, or replace BOB and let him focus on his Penn State job.....


Man, this postseason has been awesome for stories and sub-plots already, and it's not even the Patriots offseason yet.

I might have missed it somewhere else, but I have been scanning this thread for this post because I didn't want to be redundant.

Conspiracy theories suck, but....

I could definitely see a scenario where BOB wakes up this weekend and realizes how big a bite he just took. Missing out on visiting prospects, doing tours of the campus, just being in PA this time of year. Staying with the Pats 100% throughout the entire playoffs would impact his ability to do his next job, wouldn't it?

We've seen how these coaches change, jump ship, quit suddenly, etc. Parcells and Fairbanks came to my mind as soon as I heard about the McD stuff and how he could be here immediately. Who's to say BOB doesn't do something like that in the next week or two or three? Having Josh here now provides a bit of a safety net.

Not saying it's all likely, just wouldn't be shocked if it turned out that we really need McD here for the AFCCG.

 

[ivanvamp]

I might have missed it somewhere else, but I have been scanning this thread for this post because I didn't want to be redundant.

Conspiracy theories suck, but....

I could definitely see a scenario where BOB wakes up this weekend and realizes how big a bite he just took. Missing out on visiting prospects, doing tours of the campus, just being in PA this time of year. Staying with the Pats 100% throughout the entire playoffs would impact his ability to do his next job, wouldn't it?

We've seen how these coaches change, jump ship, quit suddenly, etc. Parcells and Fairbanks came to my mind as soon as I heard about the McD stuff and how he could be here immediately. Who's to say BOB doesn't do something like that in the next week or two or three? Having Josh here now provides a bit of a safety net.

Not saying it's all likely, just wouldn't be shocked if it turned out that we really need McD here for the AFCCG.

Obviously it's not ideal, but for a one-game situation, I would think that the Pats would make do with BB calling the offensive plays and Patricia calling the defense.

 

[FreeTedWilliams]

Actually if I'm O'Brien, I'm hoping for a SB run and all the exposure it would bring him. Think about it, all game their wi;ll be sidelines shot s of him and "there's Penn States new coach" huddled with Tom Brady. That will sell Penn State more than any visit would.

 

[Rob0729]

You do know that McDaniels was the HC and not the GM right?

Yes, Xander was the GM and deserves as much or the blame as McDaniels, but McDaniels did have a lot of influence and say of who was drafted in Denver.

 

[Rob0729]

That job was seen as a plum one because of the owners previous track record of patience, but that patience had recently allowed Shanny to create a monster Josh was left to grapple with in his wake. If not for Cutler and Marshall and that idiot fan base that now worships Josh's biggest draft mistake - not to mention Scar's idiot kid... it might have worked out. That is why Bill gave Josh his blessing. He'd paid his dues in Bill's opinion and it was a job with solid potential until you scratched the surface and uncovered the rot permeating the existing roster not to mention the brains of the fanbase.

Interesting to note that the genius GM who thought Cutler was worth a player and two firsts in trade got fired this week and the braintrust that traded for Marshall is all but gone in Miami with just Ireland still hanging on by his fingernails...

If I was a GM or a head coach, I wouldn't want either Cutler or Marshall either. Cutler at his best was a Brett Favre Lite type of player being the gunslinger and making costly mistakes. I remember when Marshall was traded to the Dolphins and Holmes was traded to the Jets and people on this board blasted Belichick for not getting either one. I think most people will agree now that neither is worth the headache they became.

I don't know though. McDaniels was the hottest head coaching candidate at the time. Even with Bowlen's patience (and was he really patient or just not willing to cut a two time Super Bowl winning coach because of fan repercussion), he had to know this was a powder keg with his star QB and WR being two of the biggest head cases in the league. Personally, I would have held out for a better position, but I do have the power of hindsight at this point.

 

[Rob0729]

Actually if I'm O'Brien, I'm hoping for a SB run and all the exposure it would bring him. Think about it, all game their wi;ll be sidelines shot s of him and "there's Penn States new coach" huddled with Tom Brady. That will sell Penn State more than any visit would.

He actually needs it more to win over Penn State alumni, fans, and students. O'Brien is getting slammed publicly by a lot of alumni. Winning a Super Bowl will help quiet the objections to hiring a head coach with no Penn State ties and quiet the memory of Joe Pa. He needs to win over the Penn State community before he can even worry what future potential recruits might think about him.

 

[RobertWeathers]

He actually needs it more to win over Penn State alumni, fans, and students. O'Brien is getting slammed publicly by a lot of alumni. Winning a Super Bowl will help quiet the objections to hiring a head coach with no Penn State ties and quiet the memory of Joe Pa. He needs to win over the Penn State community before he can even worry what future potential recruits might think about him.

Winning a SB might help. Winning a bowl game during the 1st week in January will help.

 

[wistahpatsfan]

He actually needs it more to win over Penn State alumni, fans, and students. O'Brien is getting slammed publicly by a lot of alumni. Winning a Super Bowl will help quiet the objections to hiring a head coach with no Penn State ties and quiet the memory of Joe Pa. He needs to win over the Penn State community before he can even worry what future potential recruits might think about him.

That's all possible and a good point. I'm just not sure that those morons on the boosters and alums down in Happy Vally are going to be that easily moved. They're still trying to get over the fact that BO'B isn't a Lion- SB win or not. It's going to take a great season right off the bat to turn those clueless children around down there.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Thanks for solidifying my point. You are presenting an argument in a very simple context that does not take into account the variables involved in the decision. Did McDaniel's brother, who was at the time a positional coach at Minnesota, give a high recommendation? Yes, yes he did. However, that was mentioned as a side comment within four pages worth of plot. Do I sense something awry with that? No, I see nothing out of the norm with a college positional coach giving a high recommendation for one of his players. That said, I do see something out of the norm in citing a half-sentence as the lucid truth in a nebulous sea of obfuscation.

Belichick flipped a coin between athleticism, what was pretty clearly a high level tape, and recommendations of his scouts. He chose on the wrong side. Executives, irrespective of vocation, make similar decisions all the time and are often wrong. Such is the nature of anything. I don't have a problem with that process, and look at it as a learning experience for both parties. The problem is that you are viewing a normal part of the process as being indicative of some fatal flaw which is plainly wrong. I'm sorry if I'm coming off like an a-hole, but the truth is the truth, and you are making a mountain out of a molehill because it suits your confirmation bias.

Well said. BB is confident that he knows better how to calibrate J McD's input on player selection. Also it's rational to assume that Josh too has in the last few years learned much about player selection. Nothing like experiencing failure to teach intelligent people what not to do. See Steve Jobs comments on his career. In this vein, coaching the Browns taught BB volumes. In the end, all such player decisions are BB's.

 

[Ring 6]

Yes, Xander was the GM and deserves as much or the blame as McDaniels, but McDaniels did have a lot of influence and say of who was drafted in Denver.

You say that as if its accepted that those drafts were awful and deserve blame.

 

[convertedpatsfan]

I really don't feel like arguing anymore because I think Rob ended up on a similar page on where I was. I see he acknowledged that McDaniels isn't the best personnel evaluator in the league, but I agree that McDaniels may not have as much input with that if he comes back. But, since there were some recent comments from other posters, I'll humor this other Denver topic for a bit just to see what their responses are since there seems to be a fervent excuse for every move and I'm curious how they spin it.

We don't need to rehash the whole Jay Cutler thing because that just plays right into the debate trap of hyper focusing on one thing while deliberately ignoring the entire mountain of evidence.

- Jay Cutler for Kyle Orton
- Brandon Marshall
- Peyton Hillis for Brady Quinn
- Trading Alphonso Smith for Dan Gronkowski
- Tony Scheffler
- Laurence Maroney for a 4th round pick

Denver draft picks 2009
1/12 Knowshon Moreno
1/18 Robert Ayers
2/37 Alphonso Smith
2/48 Darcel McBath
2/64 Richard Quinn
4/114 David Bruton
4/132 Seth Olsen
5/141 Kenny McKinley
6/174 Brandstater
7/225 Blake Schlueter

Denver draft picks 2010
1/22 Demaryius Thomas
1/25 Tim Tebow
2/45 Zane Beadles
3/80 J.D. Walton
3/87 Eric Decker
5/187 Perrish Cox
6/183 Eric Olsen
7/225 Syd'Quan Thompson
7/232 Jammie Kirlew

Also a quote:
"Denver coach Josh McDaniels played a big role in the drafting of O’Connell in New England, and McDaniels put a claim on O’Connell last year when New England cut him. "
Kevin O\'Connell - AFC West Blog - ESPN

Not defending Josh as a talent evaluator, but it's worth noting that new coaches/GMs often don't have much time to prepare for their first drafts. They are often coming from different systems and the scouts are often looking for different types of guys, and there's very little time to get on the same page.

Brian Xanders also joined the team in 2008 as an assistant GM, but 2009 was his first year as the head guy. If you look at Pioli's first draft with KC, also in 2009, it wasn't very good either. Even BB's first draft with the Patriots wasn't that successful, apart from Brady, and they passed on him 5 times.

Plus factor in that 2009 was a pretty awful draft for almost everyone, and it's hard to really hold that against Josh. As others have pointed out, the 2010 draft was pretty good.

I also think this need to have instant results for new coaches is insane. Adam Schefter pointed it out recently as well:

Impatient owners don't allow coaches to develop -- Adam Schefter's 10 Spot - ESPN

Every NFL owner who recently changed head coaches, or still is considering it, also needs to study his sport's history.

Hall of Fame coach Tom Landry did not make the playoffs until his seventh season as a head coach and he didn't win his first NFL playoff game until his eighth season in Dallas. Today he would have been fired twice over.

Hall of Fame coach Chuck Noll did not make the playoffs until his fourth season, after he had compiled a 12-30 record during his first three seasons in Pittsburgh. He never would have made it today.

Hall of Fame coach Don Shula didn't win a playoff game until his sixth season as a head coach in Baltimore, and went 0-2 in the postseason during his first five seasons. He probably would have been fired before getting the chance to become Shula.

The rare teams with continuity -- New England, Baltimore, Pittsburgh, Green Bay, New Orleans, Philadelphia and the New York Giants -- are allowed to operate efficiently while taking advantage of competitors that are not. But the teams that give their head coaches time, patience and, of course, a quarterback are the ones that find themselves playing in this postseason.

In today's world, everyone loves eating the turkey, but no one wants to wait around for it to cook. They'd rather microwave it. Unfortunately, it's not as tasty or savory, much like the seasons some of these unstable NFL franchises continually experience.

Just last month, Dolphins owner Stephen Ross said he intends to hire a "young Don Shula." Doesn't every team.

The problem is, few do. Or maybe they actually do, but don't take the time to find out.

Yes, Josh made mistakes as a HC. He made a ton of mistakes as OC as well, but he learned from them and improved. Same with BOB. Same with BB. And they'll continue to make mistakes because they're human beings. Hopefully they learn from them and don't repeat them.

To hold every individual mistake over someone's head for the rest of their careers is ridiculous. While Josh's fingerprints may have been all over the O'Connell, Jackson, and Maroney picks, BB was ultimately the one who went against the scouting reports in the system he helped create.

Ultimately, Josh will be interviewed to fill the OC spot, not the GM spot.

 

[Ring 6]

If I was a GM or a head coach, I wouldn't want either Cutler or Marshall either. Cutler at his best was a Brett Favre Lite type of player being the gunslinger and making costly mistakes. I remember when Marshall was traded to the Dolphins and Holmes was traded to the Jets and people on this board blasted Belichick for not getting either one. I think most people will agree now that neither is worth the headache they became.

I don't know though. McDaniels was the hottest head coaching candidate at the time. Even with Bowlen's patience (and was he really patient or just not willing to cut a two time Super Bowl winning coach because of fan repercussion), he had to know this was a powder keg with his star QB and WR being two of the biggest head cases in the league. Personally, I would have held out for a better position, but I do have the power of hindsight at this point.

Cutler could have been Tom Brady on the field, but his punk@ss attitude left no choice but to trade him.
But he isn't Tom Brady on the field, had never had a winning season, and wanted to be told the team was built around him and he was impervious to evaluation by the new coach.
Any coach that would accept that, has failed before he coaches his first game.

Keep in mind HC opportunities do not come along every day, and if you pass one up, the next may not come soon. Plus those jobs are almost always awful teams and the Broncos were an 8-8 team. What 'better jobs' were there?

 

[MoLewisrocks]

That is one of the most insightful pieces to ever emanate from Mr. Schefter... Although he might want to note that one reason times have changed is the proliferation of 24/7 sports mediots who often drive bottom line owners to behave foolishly and impatiently, to appease equally foolish and impatient fan bases whose mentality those mediots have whipped into a demanding, win now, what have you done for me lately frenzy.

 

[zipster9]

That is one of the most insightful pieces to ever emanate from Mr. Schefter... Although he might want to note that one reason times have changed is the proliferation of 24/7 sports mediots who often drive bottom line owners to behave foolishly and impatiently, to appease equally foolish and impatient fan bases whose mentality those mediots have whipped into a demanding, win now, what have you done for me lately frenzy.

When Josh rejoins, I just hope he does not mess-up the "2 TE set" schemes we are using, which is very successful....

 

[reflexblue]

When Josh rejoins, I just hope he does not mess-up the "2 TE set" schemes we are using, which is very successful....

And why would he do that? If it ain't broke don't fix it.

 

[reflexblue]

I'm with those that don't think Josh M was given enough time in Denver. He really riled up the fan base and some of the players cleaning house of that whining punk Cutler and that problem child B Marschall. I'd welcome JM back in a heart beat.

 

[RobertWeathers]

And why would he do that? If it ain't broke don't fix it.

Josh will not be allowed to tinker with anything of the sort but I do think Josh with embrace it no question. It took BB scouring the globe for almost 10 years to come up with 2 TEs that can function to something similar to what we are seeing with Gronk and AH. They came close in 06 with Watson and Danny Graham having decent years but that obviously doesn't come close to the ability, feel for the passing game and report and confidence with TB that AH and Gronk have.

 

[JMarr]

I'm with those that don't think Josh M was given enough time in Denver. He really riled up the fan base and some of the players cleaning house of that whining punk Cutler and that problem child B Marschall. I'd welcome JM back in a heart beat.

He didn't rile up jack. That fanbase hated him--even when they were on that early season winning run most of their fans had serious reservations about him.

I wouldn't really mind if he returned as OC (even though he couldn't have done a worse job in St. Louis), but definitely not as 'coach-in-waiting.' Going from Bill Belichick to this would be hard to stomach:

Josh McDaniels: Fist-Pumping Moron - YouTube

 

[zipster9]

He didn't rile up jack. That fanbase hated him--even when they were on that early season winning run most of their fans had serious reservations about him.

I wouldn't really mind if he returned as OC (even though he couldn't have done a worse job in St. Louis), but definitely not as 'coach-in-waiting.' Going from Bill Belichick to this would be hard to stomach:

Josh McDaniels: Fist-Pumping Moron - YouTube

Just heard that Josh hiring is imminent. He will immediately join as a "OC-assistant" thru the playoffs and will be OC, next season.

I just hope Josh does not butt heads with OBrien during the playoffs!

 

[Palm Beach Pats Fan]

Schefter on ESPN (TV) just sais to expect Josh to join the team IMMEDIATELY, for this year's playoffs, as an offensive assistant and to be coordinator next year