Is Mayo elite?

[Deus Irae]

1.) The "Playmaker" nonsense is just that. These are ILBs, not WRs. Patrick Willis, the ILB this thread seems pretty unanimous in naming the best in the game, has for his most productive "playmaker" season:

4 sacks, 3 INTs, 3 FFs


That's his most productive "playmaker" season, and he's considered the top dog. In his 5 year career, he's averaging just over 3 sacks and 2 forced fumbles, along with 1 interception, per season.

Beason? - 4 sacks, 8 interceptions, 3 forced fumbles in 5 year career
Harris? - 17.5 sacks, 4 interceptions, 4 forced fumbles in 5 year career
Timmons? - 15 sacks, 4 interceptions, 5 forced fumbles in 5 year career


And those guys are playing in attacking systems. So, even ignoring the tackles, the notion that these guys are somehow monster playmakers compared to Mayo is simply not correct.

2.) Harris is the least of the ILBs put forth on this thread, outside of Fletcher..

 

[randomk1]

I voted no but i think it's hard for anybody to look good in this D right now.

 

[chris_in_sunnyvale]

He was on his way to elite before the injuries started happening; That 2008 game vs. the Jets was a tour-de-force. He's indeed a top LB, but I think the term elite should be reserved for the true studs like Willis, Ray Lewis in his prime, Mike Singletary in his heyday and the like.

One comment on other posters' lists for top MLBs/ILBs in the game today: prior to injury, Desmond Bishop was having a crazy-good year and was definitely in the 2011 top-5 discussion.

Regards,
Chris

 

[strngplyr]

1.) The "Playmaker" nonsense is just that. These are ILBs, not WRs. Patrick Willis, the ILB this thread seems pretty unanimous in naming the best in the game, has for his most productive "playmaker" season:

4 sacks, 3 INTs, 3 FFs


That's his most productive "playmaker" season, and he's considered the top dog. In his 5 year career, he's averaging just over 3 sacks and 2 forced fumbles, along with 1 interception, per season.

Beason? - 4 sacks, 8 interceptions, 3 forced fumbles in 5 year career
Harris? - 17.5 sacks, 4 interceptions, 4 forced fumbles in 5 year career
Timmons? - 15 sacks, 4 interceptions, 5 forced fumbles in 5 year career


And those guys are playing in attacking systems. So, even ignoring the tackles, the notion that these guys are somehow monster playmakers compared to Mayo is simply not correct.

2.) Harris is the least of the ILBs put forth on this thread, outside of Fletcher..

What about Tackles for a Loss?

Mayo:
3 TFL, 1 Int, 0 sacks, 2 passes defended, 3 QB hits, 1 FF

Willis (who everyone is obsessed with comparing Mayo to):
7 TFL, 1 Int, 2 sacks, 12 passes defended, 4 QB hits, 4 FF

Harris:
6 TFL, 2 Int, 3 sacks, 6 passes defended, 9 QB hits, 0 FF

Timmons:
3 TFL, 0 Int, 0 Sacks, 4 Passes defended, 2 QB hits, 0 FF

Willis simply is more of a "play maker".

We had several of these threads last year too where everyone seemed to think Mayo was the best ILB in the game because he led the league in tackles on a defense that allowed long, multi-play drives on a regular basis.

I think Mayo is a very good, very solid, sure-tackling MLB. One of the better ones in the game, but he is not the best, and I'm not sure he is elite. There are very few as good as him, but I still don't think he's "elite".

As for the "play maker" tag being nonsense on ILB's, I don't think so. This season, Willis has twice as many tackles for a loss, 2 more sacks 10 more passes defended, an extra QB hit, and 3 more forced fumbles.

Those are all important things to look at. 3x as many negative yardage plays and 3 extra potential turnovers.

 

[Deus Irae]

What about Tackles for a Loss?

Mayo:
3 TFL, 1 Int, 0 sacks, 2 passes defended, 3 QB hits, 1 FF

Willis (who everyone is obsessed with comparing Mayo to):
7 TFL, 1 Int, 2 sacks, 12 passes defended, 4 QB hits, 4 FF

Harris:
6 TFL, 2 Int, 3 sacks, 6 passes defended, 9 QB hits, 0 FF

Timmons:
3 TFL, 0 Int, 0 Sacks, 4 Passes defended, 2 QB hits, 0 FF

Willis simply is more of a "play maker".

We had several of these threads last year too where everyone seemed to think Mayo was the best ILB in the game because he led the league in tackles on a defense that allowed long, multi-play drives on a regular basis.

I think Mayo is a very good, very solid, sure-tackling MLB. One of the better ones in the game, but he is not the best, and I'm not sure he is elite. There are very few as good as him, but I still don't think he's "elite".

As for the "play maker" tag being nonsense on ILB's, I don't think so. This season, Willis has twice as many tackles for a loss, 2 more sacks 10 more passes defended, an extra QB hit, and 3 more forced fumbles.

Those are all important things to look at. 3x as many negative yardage plays and 3 extra potential turnovers.

The numbers make my point about the "playmaker" myth. ILBs aren't "playmakers", even in attack style defenses. Lewis, considered by some to be the best ILB of all time, is playing in his 16th season. His career numbers:

40.5 sacks, 31 INTs, 18 FFs

Career averages, Per season:

2.53 sacks, 1.93 INTS, 1.13 FFs

Bruschi, who everyone here seems to look to as a Patriots comparison, averaged 2.35 sacks, 0.92 INTs, and 1.31 FFs in his 13 year career

It's not that these numbers are all zeros, it's that they aren't anything particularly impressive if you hide the fact that they are produced by ILBs.

I don't think Mayo is the best ILB in the game. I do think that Mayo, who's been voted DROY and and 1st team All-Pro in the two healthy years of his 4 year NFL career, is the second best ILB in the game when he's healthy. Then again, I don't think it's a particularly strong time for the position in the NFL right now.

 

[strngplyr]

The numbers make my point about the "playmaker" myth. ILBs aren't "playmakers", even in attack style defenses. Lewis, considered by some to be the best ILB of all time, is playing in his 16th season. His career numbers:

40.5 sacks, 31 INTs, 18 FFs

Career averages, Per season:

2.53 sacks, 1.93 INTS, 1.13 FFs

Bruschi, who everyone here seems to look to as a Patriots comparison, averaged 2.35 sacks, 0.92 INTs, and 1.31 FFs in his 13 year career

It's not that these numbers are all zeros, it's that they aren't anything particularly impressive if you hide the fact that they are produced by ILBs.

I don't think Mayo is the best ILB in the game. I do think that Mayo, who's been voted DROY and and 1st team All-Pro in the two healthy years of his 4 year NFL career, is the second best ILB in the game when he's healthy. Then again, I don't think it's a particularly strong time for the position in the NFL right now.

I can agree with your final paragraph.

I guess, when using the playmaker term, it should be noted that it is being used comparatively, I would assume. Obviously, a ILB/MLB won't break open a game like a WR or RB, but certain MLBs make far more "impact" plays than others.

I would conside Mayo a top 5 MLB easily, when healthy, and certainly agree that this is not a strong time for the position, then again, with how the rules have changed this may be as good as it gets for the future.

I still think you need to look at things such as career tackles for a loss, they are practically a sack of a non-QB. I initially listed passes defended when I was going over stats, but they aren't really easy to compare without knowing how many times that player has been targeted.

 

[LetsGoPats36]

Mayo is solid, not spectacular, and a far cry from "elite".

This year has been a disappointment but much of that can probably be chalked up to the personnel and philosophy changes as well as his injury. He was starting to find his groove at 3-4 ILB but his lack of big plays throughout his career is strikingly noticeable.

 

[Deus Irae]

I can agree with your final paragraph.

I guess, when using the playmaker term, it should be noted that it is being used comparatively, I would assume. Obviously, a ILB/MLB won't break open a game like a WR or RB, but certain MLBs make far more "impact" plays than others.

I would conside Mayo a top 5 MLB easily, when healthy, and certainly agree that this is not a strong time for the position, then again, with how the rules have changed this may be as good as it gets for the future.

I still think you need to look at things such as career tackles for a loss, they are practically a sack of a non-QB. I initially listed passes defended when I was going over stats, but they aren't really easy to compare without knowing how many times that player has been targeted.

Tackles for a loss is another stat which is going to be wildly slanted against Mayo simply by design of the defense. The Patriots have not really run any kind of an attacking defense since 2006, save for the times in 2007 where the defense was allowed to pin its ears back and go kill the quarterback.

It's one of the problems with just using the raw numbers without accounting for scheme/style differences.

 

[LetsGoPats36]

What is this crap about not being able to make plays at ILB in BB's 3-4? Seriously?

Obviously, Mayo isn't going to be blitzing a ton, but his lack of sacks shows that he isn't particularly effective even when he does get the chance.

Remember how effective of a blitzer Bruschi was when BB would send him? Sure he wasn't blitzing a ton, but when he got the chance he made it count. Compare Bruschi's numbers in 03 and 04 when he was peaking and we had switched to the 3-4.

03: 131 tackles, 2 sacks, 3 INTs, 3 FFs, 11 PBUs
04: 122 tackles, 3.5 sacks, 3 INTs, 3 FFs, 3 PBUs

Both years were also littered with big plays in the playoffs.

Was Bruschi considered an "elite" ILB during those years? No. He was definitely an upper tier ILB but not really in consideration for best in the league.

Mayo is a solid LB with the time and ability to improve. You're lying to yourself if you aren't aware of the fact that he hasn't made a ton of "impact" plays throughout his career.

3.5 sacks and 1 interception in 4 years. Read it out loud if it's not resonating.

To quote Willie Mac, "Big players make big plays in big games"

 

[TriplecHamp]

Here's the problem in this thread and in most football discussions on the internet. People like to run to nfl.com, ESPN.com, and other sites to make an argument and not support one. Its easy as pie to go to a website and see a guy has "x" amount of tackles for loss or sacks but when it comes down to it there's no real evaluation of play just numbers.

Watching Willis dominate the Giants game is a good example of a guy having 1 sack (or as DI would say "1 play") and 9 tackles. You can look at those 9 tackles and it doesn't tell you how many were him knifing through a screen or running down a guy on the sideline etc. Mayo's impact on the game goes beyond "play making" ability because he's made many plays just by taking away an option or making a tackle on a guy when there was nobody else around.

Jerod when Healthy is a top 5 linebacker easily but there are other guys around the league that are making similar plays (Timmons, Beason (last season), Harris) along with the plays you can see in the stat sheet.

cliffs: more football watching less stat searching

 

[hlywoodjp]

Tackles for a loss is another stat which is going to be wildly slanted against Mayo simply by design of the defense. The Patriots have not really run any kind of an attacking defense since 2006, save for the times in 2007 where the defense was allowed to pin its ears back and go kill the quarterback.

It's one of the problems with just using the raw numbers without accounting for scheme/style differences.

Mayo also defends fewer passes and has fewer interceptions per 16 game season then all of the players mentioned in this thread. (Willis, Beason, Harris, Timmons) I know its kind of silly when 3 more ints for any of these guys would sent them shooting up the list, but these are the numbers per 16 games played for each.

Mayo, .29 INTs, 3.49 PD
Willis, 1.07 INTs, 8.53 PD
Beason, 1.97 INTs, 7.14 PD
Harris, .90 INTs, 3.61 PD
Timmons, .86 INTs, 4.32 PD

I understand that stats aren't everything but if the requirement to have an opinion is that we have to have watched and analyzed every single NFL play and then analyzed the ILB's role in that play, then I think we are going to have an empty message board. Can't we assume that all of the "very good" ILB's are also pretty sure tacklers that play hard.

If the discussion is about who is and isn't elite, I would say its Patrick Willis and them everybody else. Willis seems to be in a class by himself--passing the eye test and with the numbers to back him up.

 

[Deus Irae]

... I know its kind of silly when 3 more ints for any of these guys would sent them shooting up the list...

That's the problem with just using raw data, especially when trying to use it to make a claim about something as variable as "playmaker". People are talking about "playmakers" at the ILB spot as if there's some obvious demarcations here. That's not the case with the position, even in comparing 1-gap/attacking styles and 2-gap/reading styles.

If the discussion is about who is and isn't elite, I would say its Patrick Willis and them everybody else. No slight to anyone on the list, but Willis seems to be in a class by himself--passing the eye test and with the numbers to back him up.

I have no problem with saying that it's Willis at ILB, followed by a clear drop to the next level. It's sort of like looking at the QBs and noting that there's Brady/Brees/Rodgers, and then there are the rest of the best after an obvious drop. I think we could do that at a number of positions, FWIW. Safety is another one that springs quickly to mind.

 

[strngplyr]

That's the problem with just using raw data, especially when trying to use it to make a claim about something as variable as "playmaker". People are talking about "playmakers" at the ILB spot as if there's some obvious demarcations here. That's not the case with the position, even in comparing 1-gap/attacking styles and 2-gap/reading styles.



I have no problem with saying that it's Willis at ILB, followed by a clear drop to the next level. It's sort of like looking at the QBs and noting that there's Brady/Brees/Rodgers, and then there are the rest of the best after an obvious drop. I think we could do that at a number of positions, FWIW. Safety is another one that springs quickly to mind.

Honestly, WR and DE are probably the only positions I can think of with at least a few elite players and no major drop off to the next level.

 

[mb6592]

Generally when I think of elite, I think of a top 3 to top 5 player at a respective position.

Therefore Mayo qualifies.

If someone is elite over a career they would be a hall of fame type player. Does Mayo make the hall of fame?

 

[ausbacker]

Solid and Elite aren't really on the same planet.

If you put Mayo in a scheme that allows him to penetrate into the backfield, I'm fairly certain you would see a spike in his numbers.

Mayo is and should be considered an elite MLB/ILB. To say that post injury his 2011 campaign has not been elite is a fair comment.

 

[mb6592]

If you put Mayo in a scheme that allows him to penetrate into the backfield, I'm fairly certain you would see a spike in his numbers.

Mayo is and should be considered an elite MLB/ILB. To say that post injury his 2011 campaign has not been elite is a fair comment.

If so, it's possible, when his contract expires, he decides to join a defense that will allow him to showcase his talents.

 

[PatsBoy12]

He does what he is asked to do, he is a great guy to have on your team, a student of the game and a work out warrior.

He is above average, but would not put him in the elite class.. perhaps if he was surrounded by more depth and quality, he may be considered such.

This year his role has completely changed...

I'd say this about sums up what I would have posted, so I'll just say ditto.

 

[Observer]

He is the second best player on the defense after Wilfork, so he is among the elite of our team. That is good enough for me.

 

[ausbacker]

If so, it's possible, when his contract expires, he decides to join a defense that will allow him to showcase his talents.

Our defense would be absolutely stuffed if Vince Wilfork or Jerod Mayo weren't Patriots. That's the regard I hold them in.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Not being Patrick Willis doesn't make him not elite. It just means he's not the very best in the league. He is a top-5 ILB.