Qb 2 & qb 3???

[DarrylS]

Wish this strike would be over soon, all this speculation about what might happen is beginning to drive me nutz.

Not sure the either one of these guys will be traded at this time and basing the speculation on what Arizona may or may not do is folly.

 

[supafly]

Who in the hell is Hoyer.

Very fair question

she's an underage hottie...run and tell Sanchez ASAP

Beautiful, not to mention hialrious. If it wasn't a good guy like Gunnails, I'd have taken more pleasure in it.

 

[Miguel]

Cassell who started 15 games and played most of the 16th did not get a second (Vrabel was included) but Hoyer who has never started a game will get one. Call me skeptical.

Let's not forget Mike Lombardi's Cassel prediction - "Once the tag comes on him, all bets are off. His value is a first round pick above 15 along with a second rounder."

 

[patriotscpfc]

Cassell who started 15 games and played most of the 16th did not get a second (Vrabel was included) but Hoyer who has never started a game will get one. Call me skeptical.

Let's not forget Mike Lombardi's Cassel prediction - "Once the tag comes on him, all bets are off. His value is a first round pick above 15 along with a second rounder."

But, Cassel also had a $15m pricetag on his head for one year, so Bill had to take the best early offer he had.

And Vrabel would likely have been cut as a cap casualty that was rumoured at the time. So, trading him to the Chiefs kept him out of the AFC East.

 

[moosekill]

But, Cassel also had a $15m pricetag on his head for one year, so Bill had to take the best early offer he had.

And Vrabel would likely have been cut as a cap casualty that was rumoured at the time. So, trading him to the Chiefs kept him out of the AFC East.

This plus 1.

I don't think Hoyer is worth a #2 but all you long time posters who keep bringing up Cassell value and then conveniently forget his enormous price tag should be ashamed of yourself. Remember the old salary cap Miguel?

 

[MoLewisrocks]

But, Cassel also had a $15m pricetag on his head for one year, so Bill had to take the best early offer he had.

And Vrabel would likely have been cut as a cap casualty that was rumoured at the time. So, trading him to the Chiefs kept him out of the AFC East.

Bingo. Not to mention the local mediots had panned him to the extent the national media was even more skeptical of his value apart from this system. If a handful of teams had it to do over again...

What our hysteria prone newbie OP doesn't get is Hoyer is too valuable on this roster in 2011 for Bill to even entertain trading this season because while Bill senses developmental potential in Mallett, he senses that in every QB he drafts and at least half of the time that potential isn't achieved. Even absent a lockout. Mallett didn't drop like rock solely because of character concerns. Teams routinely overlook those. He dropped because he's also got some holes in his game, as did all the top contenders this season. Whether or not those holes can be mended sufficiently via coaching and determination to allow him to achieve his potential (a viable starter or even solid #2 at this level) remains to be seen. Hoyer has already proved he can be a solid #2. Since he is only under contract through 2011, what Bill does with him entering 2012 (RFA tender and at what level) and in the draft or UDFA at the position will tell us whether either is worth more than taking a flyer on whatever is available in the 2012 draft.

There is a tendancy on this board to either wildly over rate or thoroughly under rate players. Not all starting QB's are franchise QB's, only a handful of teams have one of those and close to half of the rest don't even have a legit backup. Which is why perception and a certain level of desperation fuels the value of any of these guys.

If they were smart the league would consider giving teams a roster exemption for rookie QB's unless/until they start a game. That would allow teams to carry a 4th developmental QB on the active roster and perhaps a 5th on their PS...and perhaps create an incentive to encourage coaches and scouts to look beyond overblown measurables at a position that has evolved at the next level to where they routinely constitute less than half the battle.

 

[JoeSixPat]

But, Cassel also had a $15m pricetag on his head for one year, so Bill had to take the best early offer he had.

And Vrabel would likely have been cut as a cap casualty that was rumoured at the time. So, trading him to the Chiefs kept him out of the AFC East.

He didn't have to have a $15 million price tag (for one season only) - he and the Chiefs could have committed to a longer contract which would have brought the cap hit down.

As it stood the Chiefs had ample cap room and there was little incentive for them to give up a one year audition and risk future guaranteed money and incentives.

QBs who haven't yet proven themselves but are highly acclaimed and sought after can expect an incentive filled contract, with the trading team perhaps looking at a conditional pick in return, which if incentives are met can be high or low, creating a fair situation for all involved.

Whether its Hoyer, Mallett or some other unnamed backup QB that fans take a liking to, I'd think that the conditional pick would always be a viable option for a QB with limited playing time and question marks.

 

[convertedpatsfan]

He didn't have to have a $15 million price tag (for one season only) - he and the Chiefs could have committed to a longer contract which would have brought the cap hit down.

As it stood the Chiefs had ample cap room and there was little incentive for them to give up a one year audition and risk future guaranteed money and incentives.

The Chiefs did negotiate a longer-term deal with Cassel after the deal, but only on July 14, a day before the deadline for franchise tag players to sign longer-term deals. After that date, they couldn't re-negotiate the tag and he'd have played under the one-year deal.

Considering the trade happened in early March, it took over 4 months for that contract to be re-done, and the pressure of the deadline surely helped. So it wouldn't necessarily have been easy to re-negotiate that deal with Cassel to make the trade more attractive. In fact, Matt was smart to sign it right away and not re-negotiate better terms until the trade was completed, so he could control his future after that year.

 

[BillyD123]

Who in the hell is Hoyer.

Hoyer is a backup QB that will be #3 on the QB depth chart as of the first game of the season. Some peeps here think he has trade value. Really now...
He's about as valuable as P Manning's Matt backup, who ever the hell he is.

 

[crowell33]

This plus 1.

I don't think Hoyer is worth a #2 but all you long time posters who keep bringing up Cassell value and then conveniently forget his enormous price tag should be ashamed of yourself. Remember the old salary cap Miguel?

With all due respect, I too was stunned at Miguel's post. Hoyer's cap number is only $492,000 for one more year and then I believe under current rules, he would become a restricted free agent after next season.

Matt Cassel cost $14,650,000 under the franchise tag.

Further, claiming that Cassel did not yield a second round pick is disingenuous. Cassel was traded for the 34th pick, (nearly a first rounder). Vrabel had a cap number of $4.3 million dollars ( including a $2.2 million base salary and another $1 million in a roster bonus coming due ) in a year that Vrabel would turn 34 before the start of the season. Vrabel played two seasons for the Chiefs averaging one (1) sack per season and zero (0) interceptions.

Had Vrabel not been included in the trade he may have very well been a ( well justified ) cap casualty.

 

[convertedpatsfan]

Hoyer is a backup QB that will be #3 on the QB depth chart as of the first game of the season. Some peeps here think he has trade value. Really now...
He's about as valuable as P Manning's Matt backup, who ever the hell he is.

He could be #3 on the depth chart. He could be traded for a #2. He could be cut. We don't really know for sure.

But I'm tired of people pretending that a decent draft pick for a back-up QB is impossible, especially since it's already been done several times. Teams have given up plenty for similar, if not worse QBs. A.J. Feely, Charlie Whitehurst, and Drew Henson are recent examples. Heck, even a 31-year old Sage Rosenfels was traded for a 4th rounder.

It may not be probable. But it is absolutely possible. To deny the possibility is to ignore a lot of reality.

 

[Froob]

3rd at very most. He looks good but, I doubt there's enough competition for him to be worth a 2nd.

 

[BillyD123]

If Hoyer is worth a #2, I'll jump off the Tobin Bridge.
By default Hoyer is the #3 QB behind Mallet. Mallet has first round talent. However, he's a bit of a selfish a-hole.
The way I see it is... Mallet will get the majority of Pre-Season reps, and the entire league player personel deptartments will be watching all his film. It's possible that if a team wants a QB in 2012 they just might trade for Mallet before the next draft. If Mallet looks decent the Pats will def get a #1 for him.

 

[TheSolderKing]

the pats got a 2th round pick for a 11 win QB who became a pro blow QB thats took KC to the playoffs and the pats threw in a starting OLB

i am a fan of Hoyers but i dont see the pats geting a 2th for him any time soon as far as Mallett goes every one wants to talk about how at one point he was the #2 or #3 ranked QB in this Draft but IMO none of the QB's in this Draft were all that good alot of them may have went hign in this Draft but i dont see any of them becomeing great

I don't have the article saved. PATS Cassel was offered a #1 from Denver

I guess I don't know my stuff. The Bleacher Report backs what I said...

apparently it is credible and way more so than AJ:rocker:

what o I know what does Lombardi know


I guess we r toooopid:bricks:


QB's are WHERE IT BEGINS. u want that kid w/ Pro EXP or a college unknown


EXP is every thing in life.

 

[JoeSixPat]

With all due respect, I too was stunned at Miguel's post. Hoyer's cap number is only $492,000 for one more year and then I believe under current rules, he would become a restricted free agent after next season.

Matt Cassel cost $14,650,000 under the franchise tag.

Further, claiming that Cassel did not yield a second round pick is disingenuous. Cassel was traded for the 34th pick, (nearly a first rounder). Vrabel had a cap number of $4.3 million dollars ( including a $2.2 million base salary and another $1 million in a roster bonus coming due ) in a year that Vrabel would turn 34 before the start of the season. Vrabel played two seasons for the Chiefs averaging one (1) sack per season and zero (0) interceptions.

Had Vrabel not been included in the trade he may have very well been a ( well justified ) cap casualty.

I can take a guess at Miguel's thinking on being cavalier regarding the salary difference.

He's a capologist, and capologists know that if there's a player you want to sign, there's dozens of ways to fit a guy on a team...

And furthermore, even though a player might be a bargain for a season, ultimately, if you're going to give up a 1st or 2nd for someone you have confidence is your solution at QB, you're going to be willing to budget $10 million a season.

Any team trading for Hoyer or anyone else is HOPING they're going to prove to be worth the high draft pick and the high salary that comes with being a starting QB and will be expecting to renegotiate a below market salary for such a player.

In other words, if there's a QB a team wants, a QB with a typical QB salary is not going to be a deal breaker.

 

[JoeSixPat]

If Hoyer is worth a #2, I'll jump off the Tobin Bridge.
By default Hoyer is the #3 QB behind Mallet. Mallet has first round talent. However, he's a bit of a selfish a-hole.
The way I see it is... Mallet will get the majority of Pre-Season reps, and the entire league player personel deptartments will be watching all his film. It's possible that if a team wants a QB in 2012 they just might trade for Mallet before the next draft. If Mallet looks decent the Pats will def get a #1 for him.

Less may be more when showcasing Mallett and I suspect Belichick might want to minimize the spotlight on him.

Mallett doesn't need to play for now. He needs to adjust to life in the NFL - which is not easy - and act like a Boy Scout - which for Mallet, may be harder than adjusting to life in the NFL.

How he does on the field is a secondary concern for this season.

The Pat's don't maximize their investment in Mallett by pressuring him to perform well in the pre-season and flipping him before next. That runs a huge risk of putting him in a position to implode - which is the reason other teams like Miami passed on him.

 

[Deus Irae]

If Hoyer is worth a #2, I'll jump off the Tobin Bridge.
By default Hoyer is the #3 QB behind Mallet. Mallet has first round talent. However, he's a bit of a selfish a-hole.
The way I see it is... Mallet will get the majority of Pre-Season reps, and the entire league player personel deptartments will be watching all his film. It's possible that if a team wants a QB in 2012 they just might trade for Mallet before the next draft. If Mallet looks decent the Pats will def get a #1 for him.

No. By default, Hoyer is the team's QB2. Mallett will have to beat him out for the job.

 

[Miguel]

But, Cassel also had a $15m pricetag on his head for one year, so Bill had to take the best early offer he had.

Mike Lombardi knew that Cassel had a $15m price tag on his head and still thought that Cassel had a high 1st round and a 2nd round value.

 

[Miguel]

This plus 1.

I don't think Hoyer is worth a #2 but all you long time posters who keep bringing up Cassell value and then conveniently forget his enormous price tag should be ashamed of yourself. Remember the old salary cap Miguel?

I am NOT ashamed of myself.

I happen to think that Lombardi knew or should have known the 2008 franchise tag number when he opined about Cassel's trade value.

 

[Miguel]

But, Cassel also had a $15m pricetag on his head for one year, so Bill had to take the best early offer he had.

And Vrabel would likely have been cut as a cap casualty that was rumoured at the time. So, trading him to the Chiefs kept him out of the AFC East.

Once Cassel was traded, the Pats had plenty of cap room so I do not buy the notion that Vrabel was going to be cut as a cap casualty.