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Value? I got your VALUE right here


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I think that's part of the problem though. Is there such thing as a "sure thing." So many early rounders don't pan out, and it puts all your chips in one basket. Plus, I think they felt that a number of the players in the late first round and second rounds were of comparable quality (in 2009 and 2010). So it would make sense to draft down and secure more picks. And let's not forget that we traded up to get Gronkowski, and we only traded down in the first round because BB was confident that nobody would take his player. The move made perfect sense and we picked up a third-rounder.

AHA!!! There's that lame *ssed value thing again. We should have MOVED UP and taken the same player, because value is for losers. :rolleyes:
 
We should have traded up to get Gholston. A can't miss first rounder.

ETA: Ooops sorry reckedtrek, didn't read your post first. You beat me to it.
 
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He had me with that opener: "So you keep us waiting for hours on draft day with anticipation....."

Now THAT's a complaint you NEVER hear whined by a Detriot Lions fan!

Comic genius.
 
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Sciz said:
when the pats traded down in 2009 (to the packers for clay matthews), the resulting picks turned into darius butler, brandon tate, julian edelman, and almost all of rob gronkowski (7th round pick used to trade up not included).

The 89th overall pick in 2009 turned into spikes, mesko, and the panthers' 2011 2nd.

After trading down from 22 this year, the pats got mccourty, price, and hernandez.

Summary:
2009 1st + 2009 3rd + 2010 1st = butler, tate, edelman, gronk, spikes, mesko, 2011 2nd, mccourty, price, and hernandez
(and each of those 3 starting picks were toward the end of the round)

This is all that needs to be uttered in reply to these draft threads who attack the philosophy of BB. People always look at it as chung over clat mathews or brace over rey maualuga. They forget the full value of the trades and how they are continuing to create value for us now... Also a little funny now brace is playing and people thought he looked good in pre season.

If he starts at LDE this year then in the 09 2nd round we found a starting SS, LT/RT, CB and LDE
 
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He had me with that opener: "So you keep us waiting for hours on draft day with anticipation....."

Now THAT's a complaint you NEVER hear whined by a Detriot Lions fan!

Comic genius.

LIKES THIS ^ hahah
 
So you keep us waiting for hours on draft day with anticipation even though we all know that draft pick is getting traded or swapped for 2 2nd round picks.. yea Value. The next day, the so-called football experts rave about how BB is a genius. Part of me wants to believe that and his record from part years supports his case. (how long is this part record card is going to last? does it have an expiration date? yea he has SB rings but how long can you use that to make up for his draft woes?)

So now you got all your "value"d 2nd and 3rd round draft picks... quantity over quality (when is that ever a good thing??)
The best analogy I could come up with is someone who's been given $25k to buy a new car. He browses the lot, tests drives a couple but then says "nah Im just going to buy to used cars for $12.5k. I will end up with two cars instead of one and odds are that one of them will last and give me good production"
Both cars sh%t the bed and you end up with nothing (I wanted to use another expression but I dont want to get banned)

I think what happened this weekend with the roster cuts is a blessing... maybe they ll realize "HEY what we are doing here just aint working"
because the philosophy that they have been preaching for the past 3-4 drafts got a pretty good smack.

McKenzie, Burgess.... three draft picks (including 2 3rd rounders) gone bye bye!!!!
what if they just drafted where they were... you could probably have Rey Maualuga, Clay Mathews as your LBs... that is just a sample. Im sure I could find more players they missed out on by trading down.

Yea I know they've hit on some players(edelman, volmer..etc) and they've stayed pretty competitive but we are not talking about the freaking Detriot lions here... we r talking about a super bowl contender team. Staying competitive isnt good enough (maybe they r trying to change our perception) but keep in mind you still have one of the best quarterbacks on that team and I dont think they are giving him a good chance to win another ring.

They've missed on some draft picks so bad, look where the defense is right now. Dont tell me they are going to get better throughout the year... the talent just isnt there. Look at the LB and DE's depth chart... actually you will find something positive... VALUE... and tons of it but last time I checked Value cant sack the quarterback and cant cover wide receivers.

Value... please!!!

Whoops McKenzie just joined the practice squad. Maybe you should have waited before starting this idiotic thread. Or Maybe BB saw it and this is his way of making you look like a bigger jackass.
 
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In the last three years, or so, when was the last time they have traded up in the first round for a player that they wanted, or in the second round for that matter. Chad Jackson?

Ron Brace.
 
I hate to break it to the OP, but he should've studied history more. Stalin was absolutely correct when he said that "Quantity has a quality all it's own".

I got NO complaints about our drafts the past few years,

V/R
 
They just dont decide on draft day, lets take our 7 picks and see if we can make it into 14 picks and have better odds of hitting.
They have a board with players ranked by their ranking system and if they feel they can get their guy and pick up an extra pick or picks they do it. Why would they want to stay where they are and pick the same guy anyway and not get an extra pick?
An inversely if they feel the guy they want will get taken before they pick they move up and grab the guy. The extra picks they get for trading down comes in handy when they do this also.
Its a chess game and you want them to play checkers.
 
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This thread sucks so bad.

Dat_ass.jpg
 
I think people have every right to question the personnel decisions the team has made at times in the draft - especially in the 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th rounds. I do NOT however think you can question the strategy the Pats apply during the draft. They consistently stockpile extra picks and still get many of the players they had targeted at earlier picks. A team never gets everyone they target. If you can still get the guy you want - why wouldn't you trade down a few spots, gain extra picks later, pay out a little less and still get your guy? The more picks you have - you increase your odds of finding keepers. Now - if the guy you have targeted can't play - that's a different story and NOT a strategic problem.

Again - there are plenty of questions about talent evaluation - but no one approaches the draft better then the Pats. Conversely, the Colts sit there and make their pick every time. One could argue their personnel and scouting decisions have been a bit better at times - but they've had their share of misses as well. heir misses really hurt since they never have extras. The Colts scouting is / has been mostly outstanding though.

In years when the Pats scouting matches their strategic approach - they hit bigger then anyone - last years draft might be one such occurrence. When the scouting fails - you end of with some misses. Every team has misses - I'd rather have as many picks as I can possibly get. Keep in mind - we've been drafting low in every round for virtually a decade - we don't get a sniff of the true impact / can't miss players in most drafts.
 
It's funny, the easy answer to these complaints is that we'd have Maluaga and Matthews at linebacker, but we wouldn't have Butler and McCourty at CB, we'd have Wheatley and Wilhite starting.
 
Good point, but I believe the question was in regards to moving up in the first round to get a stud player. Yes, I know, stud players dont always work out.

As the discussion in this thread has moved on, it appears that, overall, perhaps we have gotten some decent players in recent years, but I believew those are what the OP meant buy "value" players and not game breakers.

I think one other thing that is being left out of these 'value - trade up - trade down' discussions is the salary cap. It's as if because the NFL is in an uncapped year this year that the cap, budget, and salaries are suddenly irrelevant.

I cannot imagine the owners will agree to a CBA that does not include a salary cap. So assuming there will be football next year, we're probably assuming a new CBA will be agreed upon. That means a salary cap - and $1 or $2 million players versus $8 or $10 million players doing the same job quickly becomes highly relevant.
 
The Patriots are the best of all time when it comes to talent evaluation. In fact, it's an art form to them.

- They take Ben Watson in the first round when they just drafted a TE in the first round 2 years prior.
- They take Marquise Hill in the 2nd round (RIP) when they already had 3 DE's who were very young.
- Traded a 3rd round pick for All pro Duane Starks
- Signed all pro Monty Beisel to solve their MLB issues.
- Trade two draft picks for Chad Jackson. Even though the Pats had one of the worst WR core in the NFL, they ask Chad Jackson to go tackle people on special teams in the AFC title game after he just healed from a nagging hamstring the entire season. Then he tears his ACL.
- Their most consitant and best pick in the 2006 draft was a kicker
- Passed on a 6-0, physical cover CB Terrell Thomas for a 5-9 injury prone Terrance Wheatley who just healing a broken wrist.
- Took a QB in the 3rd round Kevin O'Connel to mock the rest of the NFL
- Signed Fernando Bryant and Jason Webster and called it a day in FA. Then they cut them both and sign Deltha O'Neal a couple days before the NFL season and feel they've solved their CB issues.
- Traded a 3rd and a 5th for monster DE/OLB Derrick Burgess

As you can see, the Pats flat out own the NFL when it comes to talent evaluation. I really don't understand how the OP can upset.
 
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The Patriots are the best of all time when it comes to talent evaluation. In fact, it's an art form to them.

- They take Ben Watson in the first round when they just drafted a TE in the first round 2 years prior.
- They take Marquise Hill in the 2nd round (RIP) when they already had 3 DE's who were very young.
- Traded a 3rd round pick for All pro Duane Starks
- Trade two draft picks for Chad Jackson. Even though the Pats had one of the worst WR core in the NFL, they ask Chad Jackson to go tackle people on special teams in the AFC title game after he just healed from a nagging hamstring the entire season.
- Their most consitant and best pick in the 2006 draft was a kicker
- Passed on a 6-0, physical press CB Terrell Thomas for a 5-9 injury prone Terrance Wheatley who just healing a broken wrist.
- Took a QB in the 3rd round Kevin O'Connel to mock the rest of the NFL
- Signed Fernando Bryant and Jason Webster and called it a day in FA. Then they cut them both and sign Deltha O'Neal a couple days before the NFL season and feel they've solved their CB issues.
- Traded a 3rd and a 5th for monster DE/OLB Derrick Burgess

As you can see, the Pats flat out own the NFL when it comes to talent evaluation.

It must be sad going through life with your perspective!:bricks:
 
So you keep us waiting for hours on draft day with anticipation even though we all know that draft pick is getting traded or swapped for 2 2nd round picks.. yea Value. The next day, the so-called football experts rave about how BB is a genius. Part of me wants to believe that and his record from part years supports his case. (how long is this part record card is going to last? does it have an expiration date? yea he has SB rings but how long can you use that to make up for his draft woes?)

So now you got all your "value"d 2nd and 3rd round draft picks... quantity over quality (when is that ever a good thing??)
The best analogy I could come up with is someone who's been given $25k to buy a new car. He browses the lot, tests drives a couple but then says "nah Im just going to buy to used cars for $12.5k. I will end up with two cars instead of one and odds are that one of them will last and give me good production"
Both cars sh%t the bed and you end up with nothing (I wanted to use another expression but I dont want to get banned)

I think what happened this weekend with the roster cuts is a blessing... maybe they ll realize "HEY what we are doing here just aint working"
because the philosophy that they have been preaching for the past 3-4 drafts got a pretty good smack.

McKenzie, Burgess.... three draft picks (including 2 3rd rounders) gone bye bye!!!!
what if they just drafted where they were... you could probably have Rey Maualuga, Clay Mathews as your LBs... that is just a sample. Im sure I could find more players they missed out on by trading down.

Yea I know they've hit on some players(edelman, volmer..etc) and they've stayed pretty competitive but we are not talking about the freaking Detriot lions here... we r talking about a super bowl contender team. Staying competitive isnt good enough (maybe they r trying to change our perception) but keep in mind you still have one of the best quarterbacks on that team and I dont think they are giving him a good chance to win another ring.

They've missed on some draft picks so bad, look where the defense is right now. Dont tell me they are going to get better throughout the year... the talent just isnt there. Look at the LB and DE's depth chart... actually you will find something positive... VALUE... and tons of it but last time I checked Value cant sack the quarterback and cant cover wide receivers.

Value... please!!!


It seems to me that you and others like you have completely unrealistic expectations. I think you go overboard in your criticisms whenever a draft pick doesn't pan out. That's the nature of the business. It's really not any different for any other team in the league. They all have misses.

What you need to understand is that our scouting department and front office had some turnover starting with when we lost Demitrioff to the Falcons. We had enjoyed a solid run of good drafts and other teams took some of our scouts.

In 2007 we traded for Moss and Welker and only ended up with one pick in the first four or five rounds. It never makes any sense to me why the 2007 draft is looked at like a failure. We came out of that draft as the biggest WINNERS in the league and oh, by the way, we went 16-0 and dominated the league thanks to those two players we added on draft day.

2008 appears like a relatively weak draft but its still to early to tell. Wheatley, Wilhite, Mayo, and Guyton (UDFA) are still on the team and Crable is back on the P.S. If Wheatley and Guyton continue to develop and start putting it together then that draft class actually wasn't so bad. If Crable ever gets healthy and contributes that would actually make that a good draft and keep in mind we lost a 1st rounder that year.

2009 still appears to be a strong draft, even with McKenzie getting cut. I really don't know how you can criticize the 2009 draft class at this point.

2010 just happened so no one can analyze it at this point. Those who criticized the McCourty pick said we didn't need a CB. I'd say they look kind of foolish right now with Bodden going to IR. Score another one for Belichick's crystal ball.

While we've certainly had our misses and they're easy to point out, have you even looked at how other teams have fared? It seems like the critics always forget that step. It seems like they expect BB to have an 80-90% success rate. Sorry people, but that kind of success rate just doesn't exist....Not when it comes to the NFL draft.

Ultimately, the product needs to be evaluated by what it does on the field. Crying about it before week one is more than just premature, its foolish. Perhaps you're spending too much time listening to the media. Those people are ALWAYS wrong. Turn the channel already. We're going to have a fun team this year. They'll be flawed, especially on the defensive side but overall, we're in store for a very entertaining season. The talent surrounding Brady might be better than it was in 2007. I expect that we're going to see quite a few shootouts and when the dust settles we will once again be AFC East Champions and if the young guys come through on the defensive side, who knows, maybe a whole lot more.

Cheer up! We're the f.cking Patriots! No fan base has it any better than us.
 
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I knew opening this thread would be west of time
 
So would you rather have the JEST draft, where they have a fourth-round pick—just one of four—just idling on the bench all season?

The jets hit on harris, revis, shoone greene. I agree with the OP, hitting on early picks is more important than stocking up late round picks, and hope to find a gem.
 
The Patriots are the best of all time when it comes to talent evaluation. In fact, it's an art form to them.

- They take Ben Watson in the first round when they just drafted a TE in the first round 2 years prior.
- They take Marquise Hill in the 2nd round (RIP) when they already had 3 DE's who were very young.
- Traded a 3rd round pick for All pro Duane Starks
- Signed all pro Monty Beisel to solve their MLB issues.
- Trade two draft picks for Chad Jackson. Even though the Pats had one of the worst WR core in the NFL, they ask Chad Jackson to go tackle people on special teams in the AFC title game after he just healed from a nagging hamstring the entire season. Then he tears his ACL.
- Their most consitant and best pick in the 2006 draft was a kicker
- Passed on a 6-0, physical cover CB Terrell Thomas for a 5-9 injury prone Terrance Wheatley who just healing a broken wrist.
- Took a QB in the 3rd round Kevin O'Connel to mock the rest of the NFL
- Signed Fernando Bryant and Jason Webster and called it a day in FA. Then they cut them both and sign Deltha O'Neal a couple days before the NFL season and feel they've solved their CB issues.
- Traded a 3rd and a 5th for monster DE/OLB Derrick Burgess

As you can see, the Pats flat out own the NFL when it comes to talent evaluation. I really don't understand how the OP can upset.

Let's just slit our wrists in unison after a sip of Jonestown Punch.


You must be the life of party every weekend, I am sure.





By the way, thanks for that extremely balanced, impartial and objective analysis.



Based on previous posts and responses, let me spell that out for you: that's called sarcasm.
 
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