Value? I got your VALUE right here

[HEY BRO! WHAT UP?]

Let's just slit our wrists in unison after a sip of Jonestown Punch.


You must be the life of party every weekend, I am sure.





By the way, thanks for that extremely balanced, impartial and objective analysis.



Based on previous posts and responses, let me spell that out for you: that's called sarcasm.

Absolutely not. I've finally seen the light. The Pats can do no wrong.

 

[Crazy Patriot Guy]

Good point, but I believe the question was in regards to moving up in the first round to get a stud player. Yes, I know, stud players dont always work out.

As the discussion in this thread has moved on, it appears that, overall, perhaps we have gotten some decent players in recent years, but I believew those are what the OP meant byu "value" players and not game breakers.

I responded to your question of when they moved up for a 1st rounder, "or in the 2nd round for that matter." But yes, I understand the want for gamebrakers on this team and naturally it's assumed you get them high in the draft.

As you said though, it doesn't always work out. The Jets wasted two 1st rounders on Dewayne Robertson. The Saints did the same with Johnathan Sullivan. In fairness, the Jets struck gold trading multiple picks for Darrelle Revis.

On the flip side, trading back doesn't mean you're settling for crap. In 2006, the Eagles traded with the Saints to move up in the 4th round and took Max Jean-Gilles. After the move back, the Saints grabbed Jahri Evans. We know how Greg Jennings has worked out for GB after they let us move up to take Chad Jackson. And looking at the Revis trade, the Panthers used those two picks for Jon Beason and Ryan Kalil, two pro bowlers.

I'm not against moving up if you like the player. However, I won't call it a mistake to do the opposite. The two most important players on our defense, Wilfork and Mayo, were "value" picks after trading into the 1st round the following season. It's already been shown in this thread how many players we landed with the trades of three original picks.

I_Bleed_Blue, my post turned more towards the general discussion and wasn't all a direct response to your post.

 

[Ron Sellers]

Absolutely not. I've finally seen the light. The Pats can do no wrong.

The Pats have had plenty of decisions that turned out to be wrong ones.



When was the last time that you commented on the Pats doing something right?

 

[reflexblue]

What The F*** do you people want, the Pats have been to FIVE (5) Super Bowls in the last Fifteen Years and have won Three of them. And with the last couple of drafts are gearing up for another serious run at the title Whining is getting sickening

 

[Patspsycho]

 

[HEY BRO! WHAT UP?]

The Pats have had plenty of decisions that turned out to be wrong ones.



When was the last time that you commented on the Pats doing something right?

-Signing Colvin
-Signing Rodney Harrison
-Getting production immediately from Eugene Wilson and Asante Samuel
-Trading for Corey Dillon, although I'd rather seen them use that pick to trade up to draft Steven Jackson
-Signing Tyrone Poole
-Trading for Ted Washington
-Signing Keith Traylor
-Signing Adalius Thomas although it didn't work out
-Sticking with Josh McDaniels who proved a ton of people wrong including myself
-Trading for Moss

Notice a trend here? These were the type of moves that either won them a super bowl or helped them get to the super bowl (Thomas).

Most of them were not pro bowlers but played a very significant role for the team.

And you guys wonder why I'm so harsh on the Pats drafts and transactions over the last several years.

 

[Sciz]

The jets hit on harris, revis, shoone greene. I agree with the OP, hitting on early picks is more important than stocking up late round picks, and hope to find a gem.

The Jets have gotten damn lucky lately with injuries though, which helps make up for their lack of depth, which was caused by having no draft picks. Their starting OL hasn't missed a start in 5 years. If one goes down this year, then uber-raw Vlad Ducasse has to step in. A Greene injury, and LT is their feature back. If one of the ILBs goes down, then I believe it is Lance "One Defensive Snap last season for the Seahawks" Laury who starts. A DE injury, and they're looking at Vernon Gholston getting a lot of playing time.

The Patriots, on the other hand, are down to their 3rd LG and not in horrible shape. It would take two RB injuries before we start losing sleep. ILB is full of young depth, with the 3rd ILB having started 16 games last season. At OLB and DE, the 3rd options aren't horrible worse from the 2nd. CB depth was at an all time high. Safety depth probably is.

Hitting on early round picks makes you look good on paper. Making decent late round picks prepares you for the injury-waiting-to-happen that is the NFL.

 

[Ron Sellers]

-Signing Colvin
-Signing Rodney Harrison
-Getting production immediately from Eugene Wilson and Asante Samuel
-Trading for Corey Dillon, although I'd rather seen them use that pick to trade up to draft Steven Jackson
-Signing Tyrone Poole
-Trading for Ted Washington
-Signing Keith Traylor
-Signing Adalius Thomas although it didn't work out
-Sticking with Josh McDaniels who proved a ton of people wrong including myself
-Trading for Moss

Notice a trend here? These were the type of moves that either won them a super bowl or helped them get to the super bowl (Thomas).

Most of them were not pro bowlers but played a very significant role for the team.

And you guys wonder why I'm so harsh on the Pats drafts and transactions over the last several years.

Thanks for clearing that up, I completely understand now.



Any/every move made prior to a SB appearance = Genius
Any/every move made prior to non SB appearance = Incompetence

 

[jsull87]

-Signing Colvin
-Signing Rodney Harrison
-Getting production immediately from Eugene Wilson and Asante Samuel
-Trading for Corey Dillon, although I'd rather seen them use that pick to trade up to draft Steven Jackson
-Signing Tyrone Poole
-Trading for Ted Washington
-Signing Keith Traylor
-Signing Adalius Thomas although it didn't work out
-Sticking with Josh McDaniels who proved a ton of people wrong including myself
-Trading for Moss

Notice a trend here? These were the type of moves that either won them a super bowl or helped them get to the super bowl (Thomas).

Most of them were not pro bowlers but played a very significant role for the team.

And you guys wonder why I'm so harsh on the Pats drafts and transactions over the last several years.

I think we wonder why your so harsh because you harp on every single little negative while blatantly looking over any positive... maybe that's why people wonder.

Thomas wasn't a move that helped them get to the superbowl the moves that did were welker and moss. So while you pay everyone else out about living in a fantasy land maybe you should get out of your one.

 

[HEY BRO! WHAT UP?]

Thanks for clearing that up, I completely understand now.



Any/every move made prior to a SB appearance = Genius
Any/every move made prior to non SB appearance = Incompetence

It's a pretty simple formula. What you do in the draft and FA will determine every team's season.

 

[HEY BRO! WHAT UP?]

I think we wonder why your so harsh because you harp on every single little negative while blatantly looking over any positive... maybe that's why people wonder.

What the hell are you talking about? I just made a list of what I think the Pats did positively.

Thomas wasn't a move that helped them get to the superbowl the moves that did were welker and moss. So while you pay everyone else out about living in a fantasy land maybe you should get out of your one.

Thomas stepped in for Colvin and had a great 2nd half of the 2007 season. He was getting sacks and was my super bowl MVP had he finished off Manning before his miracle throw. Had he not been apart of the 2007 team, the Pats would've been f*cked at OLB. Obviously Moss and Welker were a major part of their offense.

 

[JMarr]

What The F*** do you people want, the Pats have been to FIVE (5) Super Bowls in the last Fifteen Years and have won Three of them. The Whining is getting sickening

Just for some people to admit that their Pats-and-BB-can-do-no-wrong routine is now too often used as a way to simply shut down and ridicule any dissenting points of view--merely resting on the laurels of three SB rings, best record over the last decade, etc. as the main SUBSTANCE of an argument over what kind of players this franchise should be drafting NOW, in 2010, given the current state of the roster.

Sorry to sound greedy or spoiled, but we are in fact talking about the NEP here and not some perenially dysfunctional team that changes HCs every year and is marred by inept ownership--an organization that should have FIVE or SIX rings in the bag by now and be regarded as the greatest dynasty of all time, no questions asked.

Why has this not happened? Eric Alexander being asked to cover Dallas Clark? Reche Caldwell as Brady's only viable target? A defense the last 3 years that has had NO infusion of impact difference makers. Is it just bad luck? A helmet catch? Or might some of it also be due to Ownership and the FO falling in love with a strategy that seemingly was responsible for winning three titles, but is now is actually more of a smokescreen more to keep PSLs sold, fans in the seats, and merchandise sales ringing in like it's Christmas year after year after year as opposed to winning superbowls. In other words, a very sound BUSINESS strategy, but nowt one that takes full advantage of the window we are blessed with of having BB and Tom Brady here.

 

[Crazy Patriot Guy]

It's a pretty simple formula. What you do in the draft and FA will determine every team's season.

So before the 2001 season, when we had done almost nothing but sign backups and other team's rejects, and passed on "playmakers" in the draft to take Seymour and Light, you were certain we would be Super Bowl champs that year?

 

[Ron Sellers]

Thanks for clearing that up, I completely understand now.

Any/every move made prior to a SB appearance = Genius
Any/every move made prior to non SB appearance = Incompetence

It's a pretty simple formula. What you do in the draft and FA will determine every team's season.

Wow, okay.

Do you even realize what you just said?

Looks to me like you are saying every single decision from 2001-2004 was perfect and should not be questioned, while every single decision from 2005 and beyond should be changed.

 

[HEY BRO! WHAT UP?]

Wow, okay.

Do you even realize what you just said?

Looks to me like you are saying every single decision from 2001-2004 was perfect and should not be questioned, while every single decision from 2005 and beyond should be changed.

3 super bowls in the first 5 years and zero in the last 5 years. Yes, something needs to change. I don't know how you can argue that.

So before the 2001 season, when we had done almost nothing but sign backups and other team's rejects, and passed on "playmakers" in the draft to take Seymour and Light, you were certain we would be Super Bowl champs that year?

Of course not and they wouldn't have had Bledsoe stayed healthy.

 

[Coach42]

The Jets have gotten damn lucky lately with injuries though, which helps make up for their lack of depth, which was caused by having no draft picks. Their starting OL hasn't missed a start in 5 years. If one goes down this year, then uber-raw Vlad Ducasse has to step in. A Greene injury, and LT is their feature back. If one of the ILBs goes down, then I believe it is Lance "One Defensive Snap last season for the Seahawks" Laury who starts. A DE injury, and they're looking at Vernon Gholston getting a lot of playing time.

The Patriots, on the other hand, are down to their 3rd LG and not in horrible shape. It would take two RB injuries before we start losing sleep. ILB is full of young depth, with the 3rd ILB having started 16 games last season. At OLB and DE, the 3rd options aren't horrible worse from the 2nd. CB depth was at an all time high. Safety depth probably is.

Hitting on early round picks makes you look good on paper. Making decent
late round picks prepares you for the injury-waiting-to-happen that is the NFL.

Awesome, awesome, awesome post. I think you hit the nail right on the head depth is so important when playing a season that could potentially last a whopping 24 games (assuming the team plays in the Superbowl and every round of the playoffs). A team that is built like the Jets looks fantastic on paper but, due to the salary cap structure, usually cannot endure the weekly trauma of the NFL. Rex Ryan said so himself on Hard Knocks last week, they basically have to pray every week that a starter does not get injured or they are screwed. Well far less sexy the Pats should be able to handle the bumps and bruise.

Also I'm not really sure how people can complain about the last 2 drafts where there were far more hits than misses.

 

[cmasspatsfan]

Just for some people to admit that their Pats-and-BB-can-do-no-wrong routine is now too often used as a way to simply shut down and ridicule any dissenting points of view--merely resting on the laurels of three SB rings, best record over the last decade, etc. as the main SUBSTANCE of an argument over what kind of players this franchise should be drafting NOW, in 2010, given the current state of the roster.

Sorry to sound greedy or spoiled, but we are in fact talking about the NEP here and not some perenially dysfunctional team that changes HCs every year and is marred by inept ownership--an organization that should have FIVE or SIX rings in the bag by now and be regarded as the greatest dynasty of all time, no questions asked.

Why has this not happened? Eric Alexander being asked to cover Dallas Clark? Reche Caldwell as Brady's only viable target? A defense the last 3 years that has had NO infusion of impact difference makers. Is it just bad luck? A helmet catch? Or might some of it also be due to Ownership and the FO falling in love with a strategy that seemingly was responsible for winning three titles, but is now is actually more of a smokescreen more to keep PSLs sold, fans in the seats, and merchandise sales ringing in like it's Christmas year after year after year as opposed to winning superbowls. In other words, a very sound BUSINESS strategy, but nowt one that takes full advantage of the window we are blessed with of having BB and Tom Brady here.

See, your asking for perfection, thats why some of you guys come across as spoiled whiners. You know how damn hard it is to win in the NFL, 5 Super Bowls in 15 years 3-2 record, AFC Championship game, playoffs almost every year just isnt good enough for some, I dont get it. Maybe you should root for the Lions. Better yet jump on the Jets bandwagon, they're a hell of a franchise.

 

[Crazy Patriot Guy]

Of course not and they wouldn't have had Bledsoe stayed healthy.

Look at that offseason though. Antowain Smith. Mike Vrabel. Roman Phifer. David Patten. Anthony Pleasant. I doubt any of us got ultra-excited about any of those signings. They helped us win multiple Super Bowls. We also landed Stephen Neal and Tom Ashworth that year and they went on to help us down the road. The reviews were very mixed on us drafting Seymour and Light. I'm not even counting the guys that were only with us for the 2001 Super Bowl.

My point is that none of those players, whether looked at individually or as a whole, would make anyone think they would be core members of a dynasty. At the same time, we wouldn't be talking about those players right now if we were still searching for our first Super Bowl win.

Winning changes everything. You bash the drafts an offseason aquisitions of the last few years. What if we win the Super Bowl this year though? It would certainly have to change your viewpoint of what we've done the last few years, as it would if we hadn't won from 2001-2004.

 

[Ron Sellers]

Of course not and they wouldn't have had Bledsoe stayed healthy.

Did you just start following the Pats last week? Belichick had not one but two perfect opportunities to replace Brady with Bledsoe that year.


Here's a suggestion: stop posting any comments until you have done the following research.

First, ask mom to drive you down to the library and check out David Halberstam's book, it's called The Education of a Coach.

Read it from cover to cover. In your case, three times.


If you need further remedial reading please let me know.

 

[HEY BRO! WHAT UP?]

Winning changes everything. You bash the drafts an offseason aquisitions of the last few years. What if we win the Super Bowl this year though? It would certainly have to change your viewpoint of what we've done the last few years, as it would if we hadn't won from 2001-2004.

I will obviously be happy and willing to admit I was wrong about this year. If they do win the super bowl this season, it's because they got some type of contribution from the '08-'10 draft classes.

Isn't that what helped them win super bowls in the past?