Value? I got your VALUE right here

[cmasspatsfan]

Why does any thinking human being actually get mad at Felger?

It's like getting upset at the referee at a WWF match.

It's all theatre, folks.

Good point but at this time of the year I prefer some serious talk about football. Some days I spend too much time in my car and find myself clicking th 98.5 button on my radio during weei commercial breaks.
I was amazed at the hosts and people calling in thinking that its a foregone conclusion that this D is gonna be crap, when everyones thinking the same way its a good sign things wont go as planned.

 

[PYPER]

It seems to me that you and others like you have completely unrealistic expectations. I think you go overboard in your criticisms whenever a draft pick doesn't pan out. That's the nature of the business. It's really not any different for any other team in the league. They all have misses.

What you need to understand is that our scouting department and front office had some turnover starting with when we lost Demitrioff to the Falcons. We had enjoyed a solid run of good drafts and other teams took some of our scouts.

In 2007 we traded for Moss and Welker and only ended up with one pick in the first four or five rounds. It never makes any sense to me why the 2007 draft is looked at like a failure. We came out of that draft as the biggest WINNERS in the league and oh, by the way, we went 16-0 and dominated the league thanks to those two players we added on draft day.

2008 appears like a relatively weak draft but its still to early to tell. Wheatley, Wilhite, Mayo, and Guyton (UDFA) are still on the team and Crable is back on the P.S. If Wheatley and Guyton continue to develop and start putting it together then that draft class actually wasn't so bad. If Crable ever gets healthy and contributes that would actually make that a good draft and keep in mind we lost a 1st rounder that year.

2009 still appears to be a strong draft, even with McKenzie getting cut. I really don't know how you can criticize the 2009 draft class at this point.

2010 just happened so no one can analyze it at this point. Those who criticized the McCourty pick said we didn't need a CB. I'd say they look kind of foolish right now with Bodden going to IR. Score another one for Belichick's crystal ball.

While we've certainly had our misses and they're easy to point out, have you even looked at how other teams have fared? It seems like the critics always forget that step. It seems like they expect BB to have an 80-90% success rate. Sorry people, but that kind of success rate just doesn't exist....Not when it comes to the NFL draft.

Ultimately, the product needs to be evaluated by what it does on the field. Crying about it before week one is more than just premature, its foolish. Perhaps you're spending too much time listening to the media. Those people are ALWAYS wrong. Turn the channel already. We're going to have a fun team this year. They'll be flawed, especially on the defensive side but overall, we're in store for a very entertaining season. The talent surrounding Brady might be better than it was in 2007. I expect that we're going to see quite a few shootouts and when the dust settles we will once again be AFC East Champions and if the young guys come through on the defensive side, who knows, maybe a whole lot more.

Cheer up! We're the f.cking Patriots! No fan base has it any better than us.

 

[The Brandon Five]

The Patriots are the best of all time when it comes to talent evaluation. In fact, it's an art form to them.

- They take Ben Watson in the first round when they just drafted a TE in the first round 2 years prior.
- They take Marquise Hill in the 2nd round (RIP) when they already had 3 DE's who were very young.
- Traded a 3rd round pick for All pro Duane Starks
- Signed all pro Monty Beisel to solve their MLB issues.
- Trade two draft picks for Chad Jackson. Even though the Pats had one of the worst WR core in the NFL, they ask Chad Jackson to go tackle people on special teams in the AFC title game after he just healed from a nagging hamstring the entire season. Then he tears his ACL.
- Their most consitant and best pick in the 2006 draft was a kicker
- Passed on a 6-0, physical cover CB Terrell Thomas for a 5-9 injury prone Terrance Wheatley who just healing a broken wrist.
- Took a QB in the 3rd round Kevin O'Connel to mock the rest of the NFL
- Signed Fernando Bryant and Jason Webster and called it a day in FA. Then they cut them both and sign Deltha O'Neal a couple days before the NFL season and feel they've solved their CB issues.
- Traded a 3rd and a 5th for monster DE/OLB Derrick Burgess

As you can see, the Pats flat out own the NFL when it comes to talent evaluation. I really don't understand how the OP can upset.

From the Parcells thread:

Everyone seems to enjoy ripping into the Patriots drafting, so lets look at what Parcells did in Miami..

2008
Jake Long - Pro Bowl Tackle
Phillip Merling - Disappointment, pretty mediocre player, is on IR, and was arrested recently.
Chad Henne - Starter.. but the jury is still out. Struggled this preseason.
Kendall Langford - Starter, but nothing amazing. Has 4.5 sacks over two years.
Shawn Murphy - No longer on team.
Jalen Parmele - No longer on team.
Donald Thomas - No longer on team.
Lex Hillard - 89 rushing yards.
Lionel Dotson - No longer on team.

2009
Vontae Davis - Good chance he turns into one of the league's better corners.
Pat White - No longer on team.
Sean Smith - Has been pretty awful, gets burnt all the time and hasn't shown much improvement.
Patrick Turner - No longer on team.
Brian Hartline - Has the potential to be a solid number 2 receiver.
John Nalbone - Hasn't played.
Andrew Gardner - Hasn't played.
J.D. Folsom - 1 tackle.

All I can say is I'm glad we have our Bill.

Discuss.

 

[Ron Sellers]

I don't think anyone doubts the great drafting the Pats did in the early days of the BB era. The thing is back then your team's front office had a "whatever means necessary" kinda mentality and that's how they acquired the people that they wanted and clearly their scouting was better than anyone else's in the league. The thing is now and the last few years, the Pats trade back and pass on blue chip prospects in the first and second round, but they aren't drafting the gems in their place as they were before. Instead you're getting what everyone assume you would get by trading back and that's a lot of JAGs. Obviously right now you can't know if they're real busts but it's easy to see why fans would get upset by the lack of immediate results and long term security.

I don't know about the "whatever means necessary" reference; to me that sounds like a 'let's go for it now, don't worry about the future' comment. I don't believe the Pats have ever followed that philosophy in the BB era. If you believe they have and that is what you are trying to say I would genuinely be interested in more specifics that lead you to that conclusion. I have felt that if anything the point of contention has always been too much focus on the future, and not the opposite.

As for passing on blue chip projects, who specifically did you have in mind? Do you think the Pats would be better off this year with Dez Bryant rather than Devin McCourty, perhaps? And have you taken into consideration the other players that are added to the roster when the Pats trade down (e.g., the previous comment about all the players that are on the roster when the Pats traded and passed on Clay Matthews)?

The other issue is that the Jets have taken the opposite road and are getting returns on their picks and since let's be honest fans of both teams are always watching each other it creates this feeling of why not us, hence the people who make statements like "how long can you fallback on the champions you won for our once downtrodden franchise." I'm paraphrasing but what the OP said is just as ridiculous.

It does appear that the Jets have done well in the draft the last few years. Revis was one of the very few solid picks in the 2007 draft. But if you are going to evaluate what a team does with its draft picks, then it should be worth noting that in that same draft the Pats used draft picks to acquire Moss and Welker. Yes, I know those players were not draft picks. But at the end of the day, isn't it all about how well you maximized the value of those picks?

When comparing the Pats' drafts to those of the Jets, aside from looking at the entire haul, also consider their draft positions. In '09 the Jets had the #17 pick; the Pats #23. In '08 the Jets were #6; the Pats #31. In '07 the Jets were #25, the Pats #28. In '06 the Jets were drafting #4 while the Pats were at #21. Isn't the team that drafts earlier supposed to get better players? Whether or not that was the case, let's give it a little more time to determine whether or not that actually happened.

 

[TruthSeeker]

no, you're not there yet.

But seriously, you dont want to end up on everyones ignore list. Then you're posting your opinion on something, and nobody will ever see it. I'm just saying, lately, you've been kind of on the negative side of things. Be a Suzy Sunshine, not a Debbie Downer

He made my ignore list many months ago and my life has been better for it. A word to the wise...

 

[kdels62]

I don't know about the "whatever means necessary" reference; to me that sounds like a 'let's go for it now, don't worry about the future' comment. I don't believe the Pats have ever followed that philosophy in the BB era. If you believe they have and that is what you are trying to say I would genuinely be interested in more specifics that lead you to that conclusion. I have felt that if anything the point of contention has always been too much focus on the future, and not the opposite.

As for passing on blue chip projects, who specifically did you have in mind? Do you think the Pats would be better off this year with Dez Bryant rather than Devin McCourty, perhaps? And have you taken into consideration the other players that are added to the roster when the Pats trade down (e.g., the previous comment about all the players that are on the roster when the Pats traded and passed on Clay Matthews)?



It does appear that the Jets have done well in the draft the last few years. Revis was one of the very few solid picks in the 2007 draft. But if you are going to evaluate what a team does with its draft picks, then it should be worth noting that in that same draft the Pats used draft picks to acquire Moss and Welker. Yes, I know those players were not draft picks. But at the end of the day, isn't it all about how well you maximized the value of those picks?

When comparing the Pats' drafts to those of the Jets, aside from looking at the entire haul, also consider their draft positions. In '09 the Jets had the #17 pick; the Pats #23. In '08 the Jets were #6; the Pats #31. In '07 the Jets were #25, the Pats #28. In '06 the Jets were drafting #4 while the Pats were at #21. Isn't the team that drafts earlier supposed to get better players? Whether or not that was the case, let's give it a little more time to determine whether or not that actually happened.

I don't mean that it indicates a "win now" mentality. I'm talking about the signings they made that were clearly for the betterment of their team. The truth was that the Pats weren't just good drafters they were good at targeting who was good for their team. Guys like Rodney Harrison and Vrabel come to mind as specific guys that they targeted and that paid off. Also Welker and Moss were two other guys that they wanted and acquired because they could. But now it seems like the Pats have gone away from that or are just worse at scouting talent at all levels.

The Jets have had better chances to draft than the Pats. The thing is the Pats have had the most leverage for moving up and getting those blue chip prospects. Instead they drop back and pick up players that haven't panned out or even shown much besides for maybe Volmer and Mayo. Not to say that some players won't pan out but since people are impatient, the Jets reaping the benefits of their picks sooner rather than later while the Pats' young guys sit around and do little isn't comforting to fans.

In '10 they had great prospects to chose from: Dez Bryant, Brian Bulaga, Dan Williams, Jared Odrick, Jerry Hughes, Patrick Robinson, and a move that will hopefully come back around to bite you, Kyle Wilson. Not saying that they messed up since maybe McCourty will end up being the best but most people who follow the draft and draft process would tell you that those guys are better prospects that McCourty.

As for the blue chip prospects they missed on in '09: Clay Matthews, Oher, and even though he wasn't considered it the time, Louis Delmas.

'08 was a terrible draft so good on the Pats to be able to trade out and get Mayo

 

[kdels62]

From the Parcells thread:



Discuss.

Bill Parcells has always been a pretty bad drafter and cap killer.

 

[Ron Sellers]

I don't mean that it indicates a "win now" mentality. I'm talking about the signings they made that were clearly for the betterment of their team. The truth was that the Pats weren't just good drafters they were good at targeting who was good for their team. Guys like Rodney Harrison and Vrabel come to mind as specific guys that they targeted and that paid off. Also Welker and Moss were two other guys that they wanted and acquired because they could. But now it seems like the Pats have gone away from that or are just worse at scouting talent at all levels.

The Jets have had better chances to draft than the Pats. The thing is the Pats have had the most leverage for moving up and getting those blue chip prospects. Instead they drop back and pick up players that haven't panned out or even shown much besides for maybe Volmer and Mayo. Not to say that some players won't pan out but since people are impatient, the Jets reaping the benefits of their picks sooner rather than later while the Pats' young guys sit around and do little isn't comforting to fans.

In '10 they had great prospects to chose from: Dez Bryant, Brian Bulaga, Dan Williams, Jared Odrick, Jerry Hughes, Patrick Robinson, and a move that will hopefully come back around to bite you, Kyle Wilson. Not saying that they messed up since maybe McCourty will end up being the best but most people who follow the draft and draft process would tell you that those guys are better prospects that McCourty.

As for the blue chip prospects they missed on in '09: Clay Matthews, Oher, and even though he wasn't considered it the time, Louis Delmas.

'08 was a terrible draft so good on the Pats to be able to trade out and get Mayo

You start out by mentioning the aspect of targeting players that are good for the team. Then you mentioned bypassing Dez Bryant. Since the Pats already had Moss, Welker and Tate, would adding Bryant have made sense? The Pats got the same player they were targeting (McCourty), and were able to add picks as a result of that. The first time they traded down two spots, and with the additional pick they selected Aaron Hernandez. Then they traded down three more spots; with the additional draft pick they selected WR Taylor Price.

So the net result was still drafting the player they wanted, McCourty - and adding Hernadez and Price to the roster.

Are you suggesting the Pats roster would be better off today if they removed McCourty, Hernandez and Price and replaced them with Bryant and two guys from the practice squad?

As for who was the best corner and which one the Pats should have taken, that's debatable. I've gone back and looked at pre-draft article and I did not see any clear cut consensus. One thing I will say is that based on their style of play McCourty appears to be a better fit for the Pats and Wilson is a better fit for the Jets. Again, you mentioned acquiring players that best fit the team. I don't know how a generic pre-draft ranking accounts for that.



Clay Matthews is a name that is also often brought up. Looks like he is going to be a very good player and have a fine career. Let's revisit a post from a couple of pages back to see what the Pats ended up with when they passed on him:

when the pats traded down in 2009 (to the packers for clay matthews), the resulting picks turned into darius butler, brandon tate, julian edelman, and almost all of rob gronkowski (7th round pick used to trade up not included).

The 89th overall pick in 2009 turned into spikes, mesko, and the panthers' 2011 2nd.

After trading down from 22 this year, the pats got mccourty, price, and hernandez.

Summary:
2009 1st + 2009 3rd + 2010 1st = butler, tate, edelman, gronk, spikes, mesko, 2011 2nd, mccourty, price, and hernandez
(and each of those 3 starting picks were toward the end of the round)

Again, this is no knock on Matthews; I'm not discrediting his abilities at all. But would you suggest the Pats would be better off with Matthews and three players not currently on an NFL roster, or with Darius Butler, Brandon Tate, Julian Edelman and Rob Gronkowski?


Maybe the reason that it is hard to grasp the benefit of the multiple picks is because the Pats were still winning ten and eleven games rather than bottoming out with a 4-12 season like most teams do when they go through a major transition of personnel. Perhaps some people see those ten and eleven wins and assume they only need one or two pieces to win another championship, but in reality they needed all those players to replace ones that moved on because they were no longer effective.

In my opinion adding all those picks was more beneficial than trading up and having fewer draft picks, given the dynamics of the roster at the time. Harrison, Bruschi, Vrabel, Brown, Thomas, Hobbs and others needed to be replaced, as did players with lesser roles such as Izzo and Seau. Perhaps trading up will be the right move at another time, but I don't think it made sense to do that last year given the number of areas that needed to be upgraded, combined with what was considered to be a very deep draft, especially in rounds two through four.

 

[Crazy Patriot Guy]

I don't mean that it indicates a "win now" mentality. I'm talking about the signings they made that were clearly for the betterment of their team. The truth was that the Pats weren't just good drafters they were good at targeting who was good for their team. Guys like Rodney Harrison and Vrabel come to mind as specific guys that they targeted and that paid off. Also Welker and Moss were two other guys that they wanted and acquired because they could. But now it seems like the Pats have gone away from that or are just worse at scouting talent at all levels.

The Jets have had better chances to draft than the Pats. The thing is the Pats have had the most leverage for moving up and getting those blue chip prospects. Instead they drop back and pick up players that haven't panned out or even shown much besides for maybe Volmer and Mayo. Not to say that some players won't pan out but since people are impatient, the Jets reaping the benefits of their picks sooner rather than later while the Pats' young guys sit around and do little isn't comforting to fans.

In '10 they had great prospects to chose from: Dez Bryant, Brian Bulaga, Dan Williams, Jared Odrick, Jerry Hughes, Patrick Robinson, and a move that will hopefully come back around to bite you, Kyle Wilson. Not saying that they messed up since maybe McCourty will end up being the best but most people who follow the draft and draft process would tell you that those guys are better prospects that McCourty.

As for the blue chip prospects they missed on in '09: Clay Matthews, Oher, and even though he wasn't considered it the time, Louis Delmas.

'08 was a terrible draft so good on the Pats to be able to trade out and get Mayo

Good discussion. As for most people who follow the draft saying there was better players than McCourty, some of our better picks in the 1st round have been the guys that were questionable picks based on draft spot or who was available. Richard Seymour was a horrible pick with David Terrell and Koren Robinson still available. Ty Warren was a reach because we panicked after the run on DTs. Logan Mankins was a reach.

As for the free agents we've signed, I think the problem is that too many people, including many on this board, assume that if we didn't sign a player it's because we didn't try.

If Derrick Mason was single, he'd probably be in New England. The word was that his wife didn't want to live there. We had reached agreement to trade for Boldin. He wanted a new deal and we wanted him to finish his contract. I don't have a problem with that. With Welker making peanuts for what he's done (it was a good contract for him at the time he signed it) it probably wouldn't have gone over well to bring in Boldin and pay him basically three times as much. We made an offer to Julius Peppers. With him going on and on about wanting to play in a 3-4, then signing with Chicago the first day of free agency, they clearly offered more money than anyone else and that's what Peppers really cared about.

It also comes down to availablity as well, especially this offseason. As John Clayton reported, just 51 free agents switched teams this year. 10 have already been cut. That shows that there simply wasn't a ton to choose from this go-around.

 

[Ring 6]

You start out by mentioning the aspect of targeting players that are good for the team. Then you mentioned bypassing Dez Bryant. Since the Pats already had Moss, Welker and Tate, would adding Bryant have made sense? The Pats got the same player they were targeting (McCourty), and were able to add picks as a result of that. The first time they traded down two spots, and with the additional pick they selected Aaron Hernandez. Then they traded down three more spots; with the additional draft pick they selected WR Taylor Price.

So the net result was still drafting the player they wanted, McCourty - and adding Hernadez and Price to the roster.

Are you suggesting the Pats roster would be better off today if they removed McCourty, Hernandez and Price and replaced them with Bryant and two guys from the practice squad?

As for who was the best corner and which one the Pats should have taken, that's debatable. I've gone back and looked at pre-draft article and I did not see any clear cut consensus. One thing I will say is that based on their style of play McCourty appears to be a better fit for the Pats and Wilson is a better fit for the Jets. Again, you mentioned acquiring players that best fit the team. I don't know how a generic pre-draft ranking accounts for that.



Clay Matthews is a name that is also often brought up. Looks like he is going to be a very good player and have a fine career. Let's revisit a post from a couple of pages back to see what the Pats ended up with when they passed on him:



Again, this is no knock on Matthews; I'm not discrediting his abilities at all. But would you suggest the Pats would be better off with Matthews and three players not currently on an NFL roster, or with Darius Butler, Brandon Tate, Julian Edelman and Rob Gronkowski?


Maybe the reason that it is hard to grasp the benefit of the multiple picks is because the Pats were still winning ten and eleven games rather than bottoming out with a 4-12 season like most teams do when they go through a major transition of personnel. Perhaps some people see those ten and eleven wins and assume they only need one or two pieces to win another championship, but in reality they needed all those players to replace ones that moved on because they were no longer effective.

In my opinion adding all those picks was more beneficial than trading up and having fewer draft picks, given the dynamics of the roster at the time. Harrison, Bruschi, Vrabel, Brown, Thomas, Hobbs and others needed to be replaced, as did players with lesser roles such as Izzo and Seau. Perhaps trading up will be the right move at another time, but I don't think it made sense to do that last year given the number of areas that needed to be upgraded, combined with what was considered to be a very deep draft, especially in rounds two through four.

The media has created superstar envy where the average observer thinks that you can compare teams by looking at the 5 best players on each. You see it all the time. "I think that defense will be tough to move on because of Brian Urlacher" or 'the passing game will be hard to deal with now with TO there" and so on.
I guarantee that the way to get the media to think you are good is to get a handful of big names, but thats not how you win championships.
I'm perfectly happy with the Patriots not having a bunch of marquee guys and instread striving to be good across the board instead of having a few great players and either weakness or castoffs everywhere else.
That is what won us 3 SBs and made us the most successful team for a decade.
Some Jet fan thinking its a bad plan doesnt overcome the facts that it works