Maroney: "The Best Is Yet To Come"

[emoney_33]

God sakes. If the arguement is fact-based, I win. If it's hypothetical, you win.

Are you even aware that your argument is he CANNOT, not that he HAS not. He HAS not is a fact, he CAN not is an appeal to ignorance.

You've seen the draft board? Good for you.

I thought this was common knowledge as I'm fairly certain I read/heard BB say that they were going to take him at their original position but felt they could trade down and still get him...

BB does it best he can to get appopriate value based based on projections for the player. At the time BB did not think he was reaching on Maroney.

BB does not have the concept of "reaching". Once again, if he wanted both CJack and Maroney, but he felt Maroney would get picked up next while CJack would last until round 2, it does NOT matter where he valued them both, he will 100% certainly take Maroney first and get CJack second. That's where your understanding of "value" seems to be lacking. What we know about their value of Maroney is that they valued him more than anyone they BELIEVED would get selected before their next pick. Anyway this is all moot considering you are attributing your expectations of the Maroney pick onto BB of which we'll never know what his real expectations/value were in 2006.

avoid avoid avoid

You are making the assumption that on the offseason prior to 07, BB intended to run Morris 150+ times even though he had only ran for over 100 times ONCE (2004). You can have an RB w/ 220 or so carries and a backup w/ 100 and another one with 60 (Faulk). BB wanted LoMo to emerge. Didn't happen.

I'm not making that assumption, I'm offering factual evidence to support an opinion. So sure, they could have signed him with the intent to pound Maroney. Once again though we can see the actions of how they have used their RBs ever since Maroney was drafted. You can go assume all you want about what the "want" to do, but they have not shown that to be true with any actions.

I'm still not seeing what facts you are using aside from his draft position to support your argument.

Hasn't been proven.

The sky is blue... Are we playing "let's state obvious facts"?

Once again, "hasn't been proven" does not PROVE anything. To suggest otherwise is an appeal to ignorance.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Are you even aware that your argument is he CANNOT, not that he HAS not. He HAS not is a fact, he CAN not is an appeal to ignorance..

Appealing to ignorance has nothing to do with it.
1) He hasnt
2) In this current RBBC structure, he won't
3) I believe BB has given him every opportunity to emerge and he never did.

Don't see how difficult that is to follow.

I thought this was common knowledge as I'm fairly certain I read/heard BB say that they were going to take him at their original position but felt they could trade down and still get him.....

I herad after the fact that the loved him. I've read that teams had him anywhere from mid-round to early second. Pats I assume had him mid-late 1st round as they could have had him earlier if they wanted and chose not to risk him sliding more with other teams potentially in need of a DB.

BB does not have the concept of "reaching". Once again, if he wanted both CJack and Maroney, but he felt Maroney would get picked up next while CJack would last until round 2, it does NOT matter where he valued them both, he will 100% certainly take Maroney first and get CJack second. That's where your understanding of "value" seems to be lacking. What we know about their value of Maroney is that they valued him more than anyone they BELIEVED would get selected before their next pick. Anyway this is all moot considering you are attributing your expectations of the Maroney pick onto BB of which we'll never know what his real expectations/value were in 2006......

Wrong. You spend a mid 1st round pick on an impact player b/c you will need to pay him 1st round money. If you don't think you have the value there, you trade out of the pick.

I'm not making that assumption, I'm offering factual evidence to support an opinion. So sure, they could have signed him with the intent to pound Maroney. Once again though we can see the actions of how they have used their RBs ever since Maroney was drafted. You can go assume all you want about what the "want" to do, but they have not shown that to be true with any actions.

I give up. Drafting a 220 lb #18 in round 1 speaks volumes. If you want to ignore that as a big piece of evidence, I can't help you.

 

[emoney_33]

Appealing to ignorance has nothing to do with it.
1) He hasnt
2) In this current RBBC structure, he won't
3) I believe BB has given him every opportunity to emerge and he never did.

Don't see how difficult that is to follow.

Because 2 is nonsensical and 3 isn't necessarily logical.

2) What he does in a RBBC structure does not have much to do with what he CAN or CANNOT do, unless you operate under the faulty assumption that if he could he would. This is precisely an appeal to ignorance. There is no proof that he CAN therefore he CANNOT, it's the very definition.

3) BB has given him 13 carries per game played over his career, so what "opportunity to emerge" have you witnessed?

I herad after the fact that the loved him. I've read that teams had him anywhere from mid-round to early second. Pats I assume had him mid-late 1st round as they could have had him earlier if they wanted and chose not to risk him sliding more with other teams potentially in need of a DB.

The problem with your idea is that you believe the Patriots rank every player and then only choose them in those rounds. That is a ridiculously over-simplification of the complex draft process. They wanted McCourty, BB said so, they traded down because they didn't feel like he would be taken before that pick they traded down to. If they felt he was going to be picked they would NOT have traded down and would have selected him there. Pioli is on record as saying they valued Brady much higher than they picked him, but kept passing up on him because they did not need a QB. Until eventually they just couldn't pass him up anymore.

Wrong. You spend a mid 1st round pick on an impact player b/c you will need to pay him 1st round money. If you don't think you have the value there, you trade out of the pick.

More ridiculous oversimplification of a complex draft process. I can all but guarantee you that you are simply dead wrong here. They do not assign hard strict $$ values on players and the whole "pick the best available" idea is only a general idea not a hard rule. The draft process is far far more complex and a lot more factors are taken into account. I promise you that it is possible they would have CJack valued higher than Maroney but select Maroney first. It may or may not have been the case, but it is surely very plausible.

I give up. Drafting a 220 lb #18 in round 1 speaks volumes. If you want to ignore that as a big piece of evidence, I can't help you.

You rip it completely out of context and fluff it to fit your pre-determined idea of why they took him and what they want from him. You can repeat his draft position as much as you want, that will never make it the be-all end-all piece of evidence to prove what you believe is their desire. That is your ONLY piece of evidence and it doesn't do much at all.

Now even if I agreed with you that they wanted him to be the feature back WHEN they drafted him, that doesn't NOTHING to change the position that today they do not want nor expect him to be the feature back. You can say that he is incapable of it all you want, but you really have hardly any evidence whatsoever to support it.

Anyway you are on record as saying Maroney will never have 200 carries in a season, so we'll see how that goes.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Because 2 is nonsensical and 3 isn't necessarily logical.

2) What he does in a RBBC structure does not have much to do with what he CAN or CANNOT do, unless you operate under the faulty assumption that if he could he would. This is precisely an appeal to ignorance. There is no proof that he CAN therefore he CANNOT, it's the very definition.

3) BB has given him 13 carries per game played over his career, so what "opportunity to emerge" have you witnessed?

Add 'em all up and you have the answer. It's a rational plane of thinking. We have 4 years of data. If I hire someone to be A+ and after 4 years of performance reviews, he is C+, in year 5 what are the odds of him being A+? How about C+. Is it FACT? No. Is it likely? Yes.

The problem with your idea is that you believe the Patriots rank every player and then only choose them in those rounds.

No. They grade the player based on a variety of factors and project him as a 1st round grade all they way down to UFA

That is a ridiculously over-simplification of the complex draft process. They wanted McCourty, BB said so, they traded down because they didn't feel like he would be taken before that pick they traded down to. If they felt he was going to be picked they would NOT have traded down and would have selected him there. Pioli is on record as saying they valued Brady much higher than they picked him, but kept passing up on him because they did not need a QB. Until eventually they just couldn't pass him up anymore.

I'm making it simple because I like it simple. But c'mon, every team says that they want a player after they draft him. C'mon. I'm sure that they loved him prior to the draft, but would ONLY select him if he fell into their player/board/value/competition/need thinking.

BB is also on record as saying **** Rehbine (sp) begged him to take Brady.

More ridiculous oversimplification of a complex draft process. I can all but guarantee you that you are simply dead wrong here. They do not assign hard strict $$ values on players and the whole "pick the best available" idea is only a general idea not a hard rule. The draft process is far far more complex and a lot more factors are taken into account. I promise you that it is possible they would have CJack valued higher than Maroney but select Maroney first. It may or may not have been the case, but it is surely very plausible.

I'm speaking in general terms. The will not pay a 1st round pick if they don't think hes 1st round material.

Of course it it possible that CJack was ranked higher than LoMo. Anything is possible. C'mon.

You rip it completely out of context and fluff it to fit your pre-determined idea of why they took him and what they want from him. You can repeat his draft position as much as you want, that will never make it the be-all end-all piece of evidence to prove what you believe is their desire. That is your ONLY piece of evidence and it doesn't do much at all.

4 years of his career doesn't count? Are you serious? What will it take, his retirement to prove that he was never a feature-back?

Now even if I agreed with you that they wanted him to be the feature back WHEN they drafted him, that doesn't NOTHING to change the position that today they do not want nor expect him to be the feature back. You can say that he is incapable of it all you want, but you really have hardly any evidence whatsoever to support it.

Neither do you. BB could be telling his gal in bed, 'Why can't LoMo be a 250 carry guy?'.

Anyway you are on record as saying Maroney will never have 200 carries in a season, so we'll see how that goes.

Thats a safe bet IMO. Same as saying in 1994 Barry Sanders is good for 1500 yds. Track record means a lot.

Time to watch the game. Go Pats!

 

[emoney_33]

robert, you are being beyond ridiculous now so I am done. You should just take the time to go back and read the conversation because you are way off track and are running yourself in a circle.

You continue believing that Maroney CANNOT carry 200 times in a season, and I'll keep laughing at you being hung up on some arbitrary number that is 6 more than what he did last year while basically not playing 2 games.

Now go PATS!

 

[RobertWeathers]

robert, you are being beyond ridiculous now so I am done. You should just take the time to go back and read the conversation because you are way off track and are running yourself in a circle.

You continue believing that Maroney CANNOT carry 200 times in a season, and I'll keep laughing at you being hung up on some arbitrary number that is 6 more than what he did last year while basically not playing 2 games.

Now go PATS!

Nice trash talk.

I will concede 6 carries isn't a lot.

How you can't acknowledge four years of performance is amazing to me.

He is not a feature back and never will be- EVER.

 

[emoney_33]

Nice trash talk.

I will concede 6 carries isn't a lot.

How you can't acknowledge four years of performance is amazing to me.

He is not a feature back and never will be- EVER.

"He can't because he hasn't" is an appeal to ignorance, I've brought this to your attention numerous times but you continue with this fallacious argument.

 

[swheeler23]

The 2006,2007, and 2008 drafts are why this team will be lucky to go 9-7.

 

[RobertWeathers]

"He can't because he hasn't" is an appeal to ignorance, I've brought this to your attention numerous times but you continue with this fallacious argument.

Here is our discussion in a nutshell.

emoney: It is possible that LoMo can go over 200 carries
robertweathers: But hes never done it.
emoney: But he could
robertweathers: But hes never done it.
emoney: But he could
robertweathers: But hes never done it.

Kinda funny, actually.

But this game is NOT funny.

 

[emoney_33]

Here is our discussion in a nutshell.

emoney: It is possible that LoMo can go over 200 carries
robertweathers: But hes never done it.
emoney: But he could
robertweathers: But hes never done it.
emoney: But he could
robertweathers: But hes never done it.

Kinda funny, actually.

But this game is NOT funny.

well at least the game got a little bit better just now

 

[RobertWeathers]

well at least the game got a little bit better just now

Would like to see the D play a little better.

LoMo? Despite what some of the knuckleheads on this board think, the Pats do need him to contribute mightily this year as Morris and Taylor will not hold up.

 

[Triumph]

Problem is we don't know his best or what he is fully capable of. If LoMo is late 2007, i'd love it and so would BB.

Pats have a RBBC approach for reasons that both emoney and I have highlighted as possibilities.

Well, we sorta know. Maroneys 2007 season that everyone raves about. Jeez, that was 3 season ago. It aint about history, its about making history.

Brady threw 50 TD passes that season and teams got scorched by the NE passing game. Im not all that impressed that Maroney had his best season during that span. Id rather see a NE RB that can bring it when the passing game is in a funk and I dont see Maroney as that guy.

RBBC has no room for dancers. BB will draft a RB and let Maroney hit the street particularly if Koolaid is thinking he deserves big money as a FA. Maroney isnt that hard to replace.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

So far Maroney is true to his word tonite, the best IS yet to come.

 

[Deus Irae]

So far Maroney is true to his word tonite, the best IS yet to come.

Maroney's stock rose with every carry by Morris and BJGE tonight.

 

[Triumph]

So far Maroney is true to his word tonite, the best IS yet to come.

Its a first for him and a step in the right direction (no pun intended)

 

[BelichickFan]

Hopefully they'll trade him to a team that will give him a chance. If he's below Morris and Green-Ellis that's a joke.

Maybe they're just keeping him fresh for the second half of the season after Morris and Taylor, inevitably, get hurt.

 

[condon84]

Maroney's stock rose with every carry by Morris and BJGE tonight.

bu bu but...BJGE is gonna be our starter this year:bricks:

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Maroney's stock rose with every carry by Morris and BJGE tonight.

SO true!

I'm having a hard time splainin to my wife why LoMo isn't geting any carries though.

 

[sbpatfan]

I think it might be important to note that the Patriots ran the ball a total of 11 times all night.

 

[DGameguy]

Hopefully they'll trade him to a team that will give him a chance. If he's below Morris and Green-Ellis that's a joke.

Maybe they're just keeping him fresh for the second half of the season after Morris and Taylor, inevitably, get hurt.

I've considered this as well. Maybe BB hopes that by limiting his carries now, he'll hold up better injury-wise through the season.

Or maybe he's just awful. :bricks: