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Mankins should be available in October


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$11M in 2011, $13M in 2012
Yes I suppose that Mankins will be punished if he is franchised.

Mankins isn't going ANYWHERE. The Pats have the right to franchise him as often as they want. And since they were offering him top 5 money, they would have been willing to pay franchise tag money in any case. Mankins can go ahead and sit on his ass and pout and lose money this season. His agent is giving him bad advice because face it agents are greedy SOBs.

There is no way Mankins is worth Jahri Evans money because he ain't as good. Particularly his pass-blocking and dumb penalties leave a lot to be desired. So either shut up and play or put up with franchise tags from 2011 onwards, because you're not GOING ANYWHERE unless the Pats say so Mankins. So take it like a man and SUCK IT UP!

I would not trade mankins for anything less than a 1st round pick. I'm certainly not GIVING him away to make him happy.
 
The point is that Mankins will be available in October if the patriots don't act first. BTW, any trade would need the cooperation of Mankins, as was the case in the past. If the patriots want to deal, they will send allow Mankins' agent to secure one.

Mankin$ should be avail. in October?

I seriously doubt it.

What I don't doubt is that he has played his last down for the NEP.

Bill will almost assuredly never wait for him to stroll into Foxborough just before week 10 so he can accrue one more season on Bill's dime, while his team's season hangs on the brink.

Mankin$ will be traded before week 2, just like Meion was.
 
Unless you know about some rule changes, Mankins cannot be traded until he signs his contract.

Oh yeah, I forgot that little detail.

I wonder if that works to Mankin$' advantage, or Bill's.
 
Mankins has risked $2.5M to gain this advantage.

If a tender is signed, the patriots have full control to trade Mankins to whoever they want.

Without a signed tender, the team needs the cooperation of Mankins to trade him before the trade deadline.

Oh yeah, I forgot that little detail.

I wonder if that works to Mankin$' advantage, or Bill's.
 
Oh yeah, I forgot that little detail.

I wonder if that works to Mankin$' advantage, or Bill's.
I don't know that either side has a decided advantage.

The two teams would need to agree to a tentative trade agreement first, then the Pats would need to give that team the okay to speak with Mankins and work out a new contract with him. For a comparison, think about Brandon Marshall, another RFA, and the Broncos - Dolphins trade.
 
The point is that Mankins will be available in October if the patriots don't act first. BTW, any trade would need the cooperation of Mankins, as was the case in the past. If the patriots want to deal, they will send allow Mankins' agent to secure one.

You're right, my bad there.

I'm beginning to think that Bill has painted himself into a bit of a corner here: as soon as the trade deadline passes, Mankin$ can come to town and demand to sign his tender so that he can accrue his final season as a Pat. If Bill refuses, then Mankin$ would immed. become an Unrestricted FA, and Bill would receive a mere 2012 comp pick for the trouble while someone else would receive a motivated Mankin$ for the 2nd half of the season & beyond. OTOH, if Bill allows him to sign his tender, then he gets a half-season from Mankin$, with half-assed effort to boot...and Mankin$ still walks when it's over.

So in order to receive anything more than an end-of-3rd-round (max) comp pick in 2012, Bill will have to play ball with Mankin$ by sending him to a team over which Mankin$ has approval and who will therefore offer the least amount possible in exchange.

Wonderful.

Edit: I just thought of this bit of bad news - should Bill refuse to allow Mankin$ to sign his tender, then that would be equivalent to releasing him. Therefore, no compensation would be received.

Damn. Mankin$ holds more cards than I imagined.
 
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the light dawns
====================
As with Deon, the patriots can allow Mankins' agent to go to teams and secure a contract of at least a certain value (say a 2nd), perhaps at first restricting the choices to the NFC or not. This way Mankins can choose the team. The incentive to Mankins is that he will go to a team of HIS choosing, and will be able to pre-negotiate a deal with a new team. Once all are agreed, the tender will be signed, the trade made, and the tendered contract torn up for a new contract. Alternatively, the patriots would sign Mankins to the new deal and trade him. The result is the same.

Mankins would do this to get his contract this year and would play all of this year for his new team. The patriots would do it to get a 2011 2nd or 3rd round draft choice and get the issue behind them before the season starts. I would presume that we would use a 2nd on on OG in 2011 in almost any case.
=======================
You're right, my bad there.

I'm beginning to think that Bill has painted himself into a bit of a corner here: as soon as the trade deadline passes, Mankin$ can come to town and demand to sign his tender so that he can accrue his final season as a Pat. If Bill refuses, then Mankin$ would immed. become an Unrestricted FA, and Bill would receive a mere 2012 comp pick for the trouble while someone else would receive a motivated Mankin$ for the 2nd half of the season & beyond. OTOH, if Bill allows him to sign his tender, then he gets a half-season from Mankin$, with half-assed effort to boot...and Mankin$ still walks when it's over.

So in order to receive anything more than an end-of-3rd-round (max) comp pick in 2012, Bill will have to play ball with Mankin$ by sending him to a team over which Mankin$ has approval and who will therefore offer the least amount possible in exchange.

Wonderful.

Edit: I just thought of this bit of bad news - should Bill refuse to allow Mankin$ to sign his tender, then that would be equivalent to releasing him. Therefore, no compensation would be received.

Damn. Mankin$ holds more cards than I imagined.
 
I worry that a lot of this is whistling past the graveyard.

Can we really afford to be speculating about what kind of Draft Pick we might or might not get, under multiple imagined scenarios, for Mankins when the real issue is giving Brady the best possible shot at taking the Pats to another Lombardi? Shouldn't we be thinking about how the Pats figure out how to keep Mankins happy?

Is it really the best thing for the Pats right now to disrupt an O-Line that only gave up 16 sacks last year, while allowing TB to get his feet back under him without ducking "incoming" every other play and to have a great season? Brady will play three more seasons while 35 or younger; Elway is the only QB to win an SB after the age of 35 and Brady has already suffered one career-threatening injury and played hurt week after week.

Shouldn't we be thinking about how Brady might feel about all of this as he continues his own (clearly unresolved) negotiations?
 
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It is a little late to be thinking about making Mankins happy. While I agree that we should have made his signing a higher priority, that decision has come and gone. Mankins won't be protecting Brady anytime soon.

QUOTE=PatsFanSince74;1840468]I worry that a lot of this is whistling past the graveyard.

Can we really afford to be speculating about what kind of Draft Pick we might or might not get, under multiple imagined scenarios, for Mankins when the real issue is giving Brady the best possible shot at taking the Pats to another Lombardi? Shouldn't we be thinking about how the Pats figure out how to keep Mankins happy?

Is it really the best thing for the Pats right now to disrupt an O-Line that only gave up 16 sacks last year, while allowing TB to get his feet back under him without ducking "incoming" every other play and to have a great season? Brady will play three more seasons while 35 or younger; Elway is the only QB to win an SB after the age of 35 and Brady has already suffered one career-threatening injury and played hurt week after week.

Shouldn't we be thinking about how Brady might feel about all of this as he continues his own (clearly unresolved) negotiations?[/QUOTE]
 
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It is a little late to be thinking about making Mankins happy. While I agree that we should have made his signing a higher priority, that decision has come and gone. Mankins won't be protecting Brady anytime soon.

I know the evidence is against me, especially after Bruschi's comments. But even Teddy stops short of saying he won't be back at all (instead uses the words "anytime soon"). I'm just going to take the view that this is too important, given the timings I pointed out, for the Pats to have him leave. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong.
 
It is a little late to be thinking about making Mankins happy. While I agree that we should have made his signing a higher priority, that decision has come and gone. Mankins won't be protecting Brady anytime soon.


not necessarily true........it would not be the first time an ultimatum has been used in order to get a deal done. if they come to an agreement, he stands up and says 'I all wanted was to be treated fairly and to be a patriot and blah blah blah, and its over you haters can get back to hating someone else
 
not necessarily true........it would not be the first time an ultimatum has been used in order to get a deal done. if they come to an agreement, he stands up and says 'I all wanted was to be treated fairly and to be a patriot and blah blah blah, and its over you haters can get back to hating someone else
Which side of the Mankins family are you on.. or do you just work for his agent?

BTW there's never enough time to stop hating anyone but the Jets...
 
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the light dawns
====================
As with Deon, the patriots can allow Mankins' agent to go to teams and secure a contract of at least a certain value (say a 2nd), perhaps at first restricting the choices to the NFC or not. This way Mankins can choose the team. The incentive to Mankins is that he will go to a team of HIS choosing, and will be able to pre-negotiate a deal with a new team. Once all are agreed, the tender will be signed, the trade made, and the tendered contract torn up for a new contract. Alternatively, the patriots would sign Mankins to the new deal and trade him. The result is the same.

Mankins would do this to get his contract this year and would play all of this year for his new team. The patriots would do it to get a 2011 2nd or 3rd round draft choice and get the issue behind them before the season starts. I would presume that we would use a 2nd on on OG in 2011 in almost any case.
=======================

If some lights were to dawn here it would be nothing short of miraculous...

Mankins is demanding a trade. He says he is done here. He can stay away until the proverbial cows come home and all the leverage in this situation remains with the team that was trying in good faith to sign him to a long term deal unless they decide to relinquish it at some point if they decide that is where the value lies. They are under no obligation to, however. In fact they can force him to sign his tender before they even consider it. Bill is on record saying he personally isn't comfortable talking trade regarding an unsigned player. Branch was under contract. If not, the player will either show up eventually and play like the probowler he supposedly is or further damage his chances of ever seeing a top of the market deal.

The folly of the Branch decision likely wasn't lost on this team or the other 31 teams who witnessed it's aftermath. Even an unhappy Branch could have accomplished more here in the last several weeks of the 2006 season than he has in the last 4 years in Seattle. If Belichick feels Mankins late season insurance value exceeds his trade value, and a second rounder in a shallow draft isn't hard to exceed, he won't go down that road again. Investing top of the market dollars in a guy you've never had the pleasure of working with whose own draft team wasn't comfortable investing that heavily in him and is therefore parting with him on the eve of a season absent an offseason to assimilate often turns out to be a fools game. Let alone on the eve of a potential work stoppage. Half of Logan's potential suitors are presently embroiled in their own RFA and/or unhappy with my rookie deal holdout threats.

Mankins overplayed his hand badly and now has no remaining leverage beyond showing up and attempting to disrupt the locker room. If he doesn't show up he can't leverage even that. Bill will continue to talk about the guys who are under contract. His teamates will continue to inform the media as they did this week that they have enought to worry about without commenting on guys who aren't here...If he does show up he either plays well or further damages his own career earnings potential and risks alienating his own teamates.

Guys generally stay out of each others business for a reason. They empathize on some level and even though your absence may impact them they respect your right to do what you have to do...to a point. Push your agenda past that point at their expense, like by becoming a divisive force or deliberately dogging it, and now you're messing with their ability to earn a living... Just ask Albert Haynesworth's teamates how much remaining empathy they feel for him.

Bill knew the nexus of Branch's agents belief he could get his deal was tampering related. He had no intention of trading Branch absent a replacement, he thought he would teach him a market value lesson that would force him to report and chose to play chicken with the JETS to that end because he probably believed given their own cap troubles that season they had no intention of doing anything beyond poisoning the well here. But there is always one rebel in the group and Seattle jumped into the fray and by offering a first for Branch forced Bill's hand. He still wasn't inclined to trade him but the threat of a grievance left him little choice. Sometimes Bill miscalculates. He seldom makes the same mistake twice. I remember Brady commenting at the time that by that point he was disappointed with both sides. He was supportive of Branch's desire to get paid, but he was disappointed that he took it to such an extreme that it couldn't ultimately be worked out here.

Mankins teamates will come to feel similarly. They'd rather see him paid here, but not at their expense. They got their own careers and contracts to worry about in an uncertain environment. Kaczur could get a new lease on life as a starting guard, Koppen and Light could find themselves more attractive extension prospects for continuity sake. After patiently waiting for everyone else to be dealt with, Tommy could end up getting his deal done sooner rather than later given the fact that Mankins thumbed his nose at top 5 guard money. Teams move on, life goes on.

If Mankins is still available in October (or September or August) any team he's traded to won't be bestowing $20M+ in guarantees or a double digit signing bonus on him. They would more likely offer him a small signing bonus and substantial 2010 salary and a 2011 option triggered deal that kicks in if there is a season that year (and they've decided by then he's worth it...). His deal in a trade will be impacted by both the draft or other compensation a trading partner has to cough up and the specter of a lockout. He was available to the highest bidder and free to discuss his requirements with anyone from the start of the league year until about two weeks ago, and nobody was willing to sign him to an offer sheet or even express public interest - and that was before they found out he wanted top of the market or he'd take his ball and go home - although his agent let the world know from the moment he was tagged he was so mad he couldn't see straight. Had there been significant interest I'm pretty sure Mr. Bauer would have informed the world of that, too. He is now the one who needs a trade to happen sooner than later or his long awaited commission is gonna take a big hit.

Good luck with that since after next week the entire league disappears as if swallowed up by the Bermuda triangle for a month long pre TC vacation. Even most football mediots go on hiatus for that reason. This team will almost certainly use that time as a cooling off period in case Mankins has a change of ...principle. Immediately thereafter teams go into personal pre season overdrive, signing top rookies, opening camp, installing their offense and defense largely taught during OTA's, evaluating their rosters. Eventually they get around to weeding out dead wood and signing players to fill voids and hoping they can get up to speed in a new system and scheme absent an entire offseason in a new playbook.
 
If some lights were to dawn here it would be nothing short of miraculous...

...

Eventually they get around to weeding out dead wood and signing players to fill voids and hoping they can get up to speed in a new system and scheme absent an entire offseason in a new playbook.

OK, saving space by not quoting the whole thing, that's as cogent an analysis of the situation as we're going to see. Thanks.

Now, putting aside your own views about the likelihood of it happening, how might you see it working out that a "happy camper" Mankins stays with the Pats and signs a long term deal? I know you think it's not going to happen, but you seem to have thought this through and understand the situation in depth. Even Bruschi didn't shut the door on a Mankins' return in his comments.
 
OK, saving space by not quoting the whole thing, that's as cogent an analysis of the situation as we're going to see. Thanks.

Now, putting aside your own views about the likelihood of it happening, how might you see it working out that a "happy camper" Mankins stays with the Pats and signs a long term deal? I know you think it's not going to happen, but you seem to have thought this through and understand the situation in depth. Even Bruschi didn't shut the door on a Mankins' return in his comments.

He would have to do one hell of a lot of backtracking publicly and a boatload of mea culpa's privately - particularly because of whom he chose to target. Bill is used to brushing off their emotional outbursts, Bob is likely a lot more sensitive, and Jonathan can be downright defensive - as any son should be - not to mention potentially vindictive where his attacks against his father are concerned. Still not gonna get him a top of the tier deal. Might get him a slightly enhanced/embellished version of the deal that was on the table. Thing is if that's what you want you say so. Act like a pro. Counter their offer. And tell them you're willing to go to the mat. No need to tell us. You have their number. You don't say I'm done here, Kraft's a liar, everything they said they stood for is a crock and I want to be traded. Even if that's how you're feeling in an emotional moment. That's just drama queen crap. Vent to your agent and then let him earn his 3% and spew that crap as his assessment knowing everyone hates agents anyway and will blame him for misrepresenting not to mention misleading you after the fact...

OLinemen in this system don't have to be the biggest or fastest or strongest...but they gotta be smart and able to execute effeciently and not come unglued under pressure...
 
If the patriots wish, they can sit on their hands until after the trrade deadline, and accept Mankins back at practice in mid-October for $800K for the rest of 2010 season and accept the presumed 2012 3rd round comp pick. That seems to be what you advocating for the team. In that case, there is nothing to discuss. Mankins can enjoy his vacation and look forward to backup and ST duty for the patriots and look forward to a new team in 2011.

We simply disagree with regard to whether this is best solution for the patriots. I think not.

If some lights were to dawn here it would be nothing short of miraculous...

Mankins is demanding a trade. He says he is done here. He can stay away until the proverbial cows come home and all the leverage in this situation remains with the team that was trying in good faith to sign him to a long term deal unless they decide to relinquish it at some point if they decide that is where the value lies. They are under no obligation to, however. In fact they can force him to sign his tender before they even consider it. Bill is on record saying he personally isn't comfortable talking trade regarding an unsigned player. Branch was under contract. If not, the player will either show up eventually and play like the probowler he supposedly is or further damage his chances of ever seeing a top of the market deal.

The folly of the Branch decision likely wasn't lost on this team or the other 31 teams who witnessed it's aftermath. Even an unhappy Branch could have accomplished more here in the last several weeks of the 2006 season than he has in the last 4 years in Seattle. If Belichick feels Mankins late season insurance value exceeds his trade value, and a second rounder in a shallow draft isn't hard to exceed, he won't go down that road again. Investing top of the market dollars in a guy you've never had the pleasure of working with whose own draft team wasn't comfortable investing that heavily in him and is therefore parting with him on the eve of a season absent an offseason to assimilate often turns out to be a fools game. Let alone on the eve of a potential work stoppage. Half of Logan's potential suitors are presently embroiled in their own RFA and/or unhappy with my rookie deal holdout threats.

Mankins overplayed his hand badly and now has no remaining leverage beyond showing up and attempting to disrupt the locker room. If he doesn't show up he can't leverage even that. Bill will continue to talk about the guys who are under contract. His teamates will continue to inform the media as they did this week that they have enought to worry about without commenting on guys who aren't here...If he does show up he either plays well or further damages his own career earnings potential and risks alienating his own teamates.

Guys generally stay out of each others business for a reason. They empathize on some level and even though your absence may impact them they respect your right to do what you have to do...to a point. Push your agenda past that point at their expense, like by becoming a divisive force or deliberately dogging it, and now you're messing with their ability to earn a living... Just ask Albert Haynesworth's teamates how much remaining empathy they feel for him.

Bill knew the nexus of Branch's agents belief he could get his deal was tampering related. He had no intention of trading Branch absent a replacement, he thought he would teach him a market value lesson that would force him to report and chose to play chicken with the JETS to that end because he probably believed given their own cap troubles that season they had no intention of doing anything beyond poisoning the well here. But there is always one rebel in the group and Seattle jumped into the fray and by offering a first for Branch forced Bill's hand. He still wasn't inclined to trade him but the threat of a grievance left him little choice. Sometimes Bill miscalculates. He seldom makes the same mistake twice. I remember Brady commenting at the time that by that point he was disappointed with both sides. He was supportive of Branch's desire to get paid, but he was disappointed that he took it to such an extreme that it couldn't ultimately be worked out here.

Mankins teamates will come to feel similarly. They'd rather see him paid here, but not at their expense. They got their own careers and contracts to worry about in an uncertain environment. Kaczur could get a new lease on life as a starting guard, Koppen and Light could find themselves more attractive extension prospects for continuity sake. After patiently waiting for everyone else to be dealt with, Tommy could end up getting his deal done sooner rather than later given the fact that Mankins thumbed his nose at top 5 guard money. Teams move on, life goes on.

If Mankins is still available in October (or September or August) any team he's traded to won't be bestowing $20M+ in guarantees or a double digit signing bonus on him. They would more likely offer him a small signing bonus and substantial 2010 salary and a 2011 option triggered deal that kicks in if there is a season that year (and they've decided by then he's worth it...). His deal in a trade will be impacted by both the draft or other compensation a trading partner has to cough up and the specter of a lockout. He was available to the highest bidder and free to discuss his requirements with anyone from the start of the league year until about two weeks ago, and nobody was willing to sign him to an offer sheet or even express public interest - and that was before they found out he wanted top of the market or he'd take his ball and go home - although his agent let the world know from the moment he was tagged he was so mad he couldn't see straight. Had there been significant interest I'm pretty sure Mr. Bauer would have informed the world of that, too. He is now the one who needs a trade to happen sooner than later or his long awaited commission is gonna take a big hit.

Good luck with that since after next week the entire league disappears as if swallowed up by the Bermuda triangle for a month long pre TC vacation. Even most football mediots go on hiatus for that reason. This team will almost certainly use that time as a cooling off period in case Mankins has a change of ...principle. Immediately thereafter teams go into personal pre season overdrive, signing top rookies, opening camp, installing their offense and defense largely taught during OTA's, evaluating their rosters. Eventually they get around to weeding out dead wood and signing players to fill voids and hoping they can get up to speed in a new system and scheme absent an entire offseason in a new playbook.
 
He would have to do one hell of a lot of backtracking publicly and a boatload of mea culpa's privately - particularly because of whom he chose to target. Bill is used to brushing off their emotional outbursts, Bob is likely a lot more sensitive, and Jonathan can be downright defensive - as any son should be - not to mention potentially vindictive where his attacks against his father are concerned. Still not gonna get him a top of the tier deal. Might get him a slightly enhanced/embellished version of the deal that was on the table. Thing is if that's what you want you say so. Act like a pro. Counter their offer. And tell them you're willing to go to the mat. No need to tell us. You have their number. You don't say I'm done here, Kraft's a liar, everything they said they stood for is a crock and I want to be traded. Even if that's how you're feeling in an emotional moment. That's just drama queen crap. Vent to your agent and then let him earn his 3% and spew that crap as his assessment knowing everyone hates agents anyway and will blame him for misrepresenting not to mention misleading you after the fact...

OLinemen in this system don't have to be the biggest or fastest or strongest...but they gotta be smart and able to execute effeciently and not come unglued under pressure...

That all makes textbook sense. Plus, you're probably right!

But, I remember back to an occasion when I was around Logan's age and said some inappropriate things to a boss in a situation where each of us could have handled something better. He decided to be the "grownup" and let the dust settle and work things out with me.

After the matter was resolved, he made it very clear that I could never speak that way to him again, but I ended up staying with that company and doing very well there for many years.

All I'm saying is that there is always a way back from the precipice and, in this case, I hope that Pats are willing to take it.
 
If the patriots wish, they can sit on their hands until after the trrade deadline, and accept Mankins back at practice in mid-October for $800K for the rest of 2010 season and accept the presumed 2012 3rd round comp pick. That seems to be what you advocating for the team. In that case, there is nothing to discuss. Mankins can enjoy his vacation and look forward to backup and ST duty for the patriots and look forward to a new team in 2011.

We simply disagree with regard to whether this is best solution for the patriots. I think not.

Clearly what you describe is not the best situation for the Patriots; I think Mo was just suggesting that it is inevitable and not optimal.

As I've said several times, I look at this in the context of giving TB the best possible chance to lead the Pats on another SB run while he's still on the right side of 35, past which only Elway has won a Ring as QB. I just hope the Pats find a way out of this with Mankins.
 
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If the patriots wish, they can sit on their hands until after the trrade deadline, and accept Mankins back at practice in mid-October for $800K for the rest of 2010 season and accept the presumed 2012 3rd round comp pick. That seems to be what you advocating for the team. In that case, there is nothing to discuss. Mankins can enjoy his vacation and look forward to backup and ST duty for the patriots and look forward to a new team in 2011.

We simply disagree with regard to whether this is best solution for the patriots. I think not.

I'm not sure Mankins shows up in week 10. He's got 5 years in. Under the CBA he would have been a UFA in a capped year and will likely be one under the next CBA with 5 years of service.
 
He would have to do one hell of a lot of backtracking publicly and a boatload of mea culpa's privately - particularly because of whom he chose to target. Bill is used to brushing off their emotional outbursts, Bob is likely a lot more sensitive, and Jonathan can be downright defensive - as any son should be - not to mention potentially vindictive where his attacks against his father are concerned. Still not gonna get him a top of the tier deal. Might get him a slightly enhanced/embellished version of the deal that was on the table. Thing is if that's what you want you say so. Act like a pro. Counter their offer. And tell them you're willing to go to the mat. No need to tell us. You have their number. You don't say I'm done here, Kraft's a liar, everything they said they stood for is a crock and I want to be traded. Even if that's how you're feeling in an emotional moment. That's just drama queen crap. Vent to your agent and then let him earn his 3% and spew that crap as his assessment knowing everyone hates agents anyway and will blame him for misrepresenting not to mention misleading you after the fact...

OLinemen in this system don't have to be the biggest or fastest or strongest...but they gotta be smart and able to execute effeciently and not come unglued under pressure...

Very well thought out analysis, as usual you seem to have all the angles covered.
 
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