OK, we officially need 5 receivers

[BradyManny]

Re: OK, we officially need 5 receivers.

#4/#5 WR don't have to be much more than Aiken. Matter of fact Aiken is just fine as a #4/#5.

The 4/5 WR combined for 25 receptions in 2003, 27 in 2004. We surely didn't need a 5th in 2007.

The team had injuries at wide receiver in 2003/2004 - but that depth, going 5-deep, allowed them to overcome it. So the production may not be there, necessarily, sure, but the depth was there. You are right about 4 deep being plenty in 2007. But look at the combined production of Stallworth/Gaffney in 2007, it was immense. We need to get that back and I think we both agree Aiken is not the answer to that. Therefore Aiken is not acceptable as the #4 to me. Even as a #5, I'm not sure I'm OK with Aiken b/c we need to develop young talent at the position.

My ideal group for next year:
Moss, Reed, Edelman, Tate, Gilyard

I think that is the right balance of youth & veteran leadership. Aiken makes the team as an STer, Patten gets cut at the end of camp after providing such much needed guidance for the youngn's. Welker comes back Week 10 and you have a really deadly group.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Interesting debate between Hart and Perillo on the heels of Watson's signing. And while each took a different stance, they both came to the conclusion that the quality of the TE ultimately determines his role in this offense...and the guys who were allowed to move on or were let go...were for a reason.

Debate Friday: TE not important?

 

[emoney_33]

Re: OK, we officially need 5 receivers.

The team had injuries at wide receiver in 2003/2004 - but that depth, going 5-deep, allowed them to overcome it. So the production may not be there, necessarily, sure, but the depth was there. You are right about 4 deep being plenty in 2007. But look at the combined production of Stallworth/Gaffney in 2007, it was immense. We need to get that back and I think we both agree Aiken is not the answer to that. Therefore Aiken is not acceptable as the #4 to me. Even as a #5, I'm not sure I'm OK with Aiken b/c we need to develop young talent at the position.

My ideal group for next year:
Moss, Reed, Edelman, Tate, Gilyard

I think that is the right balance of youth & veteran leadership. Aiken makes the team as an STer, Patten gets cut at the end of camp after providing such much needed guidance for the youngn's. Welker comes back Week 10 and you have a really deadly group.

I'll agree with this. Aiken as the #4 is not optimal because injury brings him to #3, and we need (read: it really really helps) a reliable threat at #3.

I got a feeling Patten has something left in the tank there. He may be a surprisingly effective #4 depth.

Likely to be available at WR we have:
Moss, Edelman, Tate, Patten, Aiken (coaches know more than us with Tate, I dunno where to put him).

Hopefully we will add Reed or another through FA/trade. Grab another in the draft and I think we'll be ready to have a respectable offense. If Welker can come back we'll have a chance at an amazing offense, but I don't think we absolutely need an amazing offense. Another top-5 offense, with less depth issues, and I think our defense will be improved enough to not make it an "issue".

 

[Deus Irae]

Interesting debate between Hart and Perillo on the heels of Watson's signing. And while each took a different stance, they both came to the conclusion that the quality of the TE ultimately determines his role in this offense...and the guys who were allowed to move on or were let go...were for a reason.

Debate Friday: TE not important?

You have an interesting 'spin' on what was actually said:

So, I guess it could be argued that if the talent level were reversed things might be different.

But the biggest factor for me in this argument comes when you watch how the offense operates.....

....That’s precisely what Welker does, thereby eliminating the need for a tight end to fill such a role for the Patriots.

Personally I think it’s logical that the Patriots would want to keep the ball in the hands of their playmakers as much as possible. So, using the tight ends as blockers and letting the wideouts and backs catch the ball makes sense to me. As long as Moss and Welker remain productive, I don’t see this changing, regardless of whom Bill Belichick decides to line up at tight end.

So, he's saying pretty much the opposite of what you concluded, allowing only for a possible exception if the team had a HOF type of pass catching tight end.

 

[BradyManny]

Re: OK, we officially need 5 receivers.

I'll agree with this. Aiken as the #4 is not optimal because injury brings him to #3, and we need (read: it really really helps) a reliable threat at #3.

I got a feeling Patten has something left in the tank there. He may be a surprisingly effective #4 depth.

Likely to be available at WR we have:
Moss, Edelman, Tate, Patten, Aiken (coaches know more than us with Tate, I dunno where to put him).

Hopefully we will add Reed or another through FA/trade. Grab another in the draft and I think we'll be ready to have a respectable offense. If Welker can come back we'll have a chance at an amazing offense, but I don't think we absolutely need an amazing offense. Another top-5 offense, with less depth issues, and I think our defense will be improved enough to not make it an "issue".

I agree if Welker came back that could be an amazing offense - as long as our #3 wideout is a capable wideout, I don't see anything stopping this team from scoring 30+ points a game consistently.

I'll agree Patten may have something left in the tank. I'm not sure why he didn't make the cut for the Browns last year, but he's not that far removed from being a decent wideout. It may just come down to a numbers game with him, in terms of how many wideouts we can keep. If we don't add Reed or Branch of some other vet at some point, then I agree Patten is your #4, and probably a pretty decent one. And also a guy who wouldn't care if he was surpassed on the depth chart by a draftee or Tate, which, to be honest, has some value in terms of team-building and building young talent at wideout.

 

[bakes781]

Moss, Edelman, Tate, Patten, Aiken

We're not gonna find another Randy Moss or Wes Welker for that matter in this year's draft. We can however find a #2 who can stretch the field. We can find a future replacement for Kevin Faulk. You may even find both in one prospect. Hint: he's the guy in my avatar.

 

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

For the record we also need 3 or 4 RBs

Maroney would waste another season of mediocrity,Taylor looks done,Morris production is fading and Faulk can't do it all himself anymore,BJGE will be cut,this may be for another thread but the RB situation is just as bad as WR IMO - There may be more 'deceptive' depth at RB than WR, but the level of positive production or shall I say lack of at RB, brings that number down.

 

[emoney_33]

For the record we also need 3 or 4 RBs

Maroney would waste another season of mediocrity,Taylor looks done,Morris production is fading and Faulk can't do it all himself anymore,BJGE will be cut,this may be for another thread but the RB situation is just as bad as WR IMO - There may be more 'deceptive' depth at RB than WR, but the level of positive production or shall I say lack of at RB, brings that number down.

This is a receivers thread. And Maroney has never "wasted a season of mediocrity" whatever the heck that means. Faulk, 3DRB, that is not going to change unless the unexpected happens and he's not coming back.

Maroney + Rookie or Taylor splitting carries is what will probably happen. Morris is depth.

 

[tanked_as_usual]

I think its in the pats best interest to move away from the whole randy moss based passing game......as much fun as it is to watch, it is too easy to stop later in the season......the scope of execution is too narrow and predictable.

something more balanced would be better for the long term

 

[emoney_33]

I think its in the pats best interest to move away from the whole randy moss based passing game......as much fun as it is to watch, it is too easy to stop later in the season......the scope of execution is too narrow and predictable.

something more balanced would be better for the long term

So like the 2003 offense was balanced and was dangerously hard to stop later in the season. Just ask the Titans

 

[PatsChamp88]

For the record we also need 3 or 4 RBs

Maroney would waste another season of mediocrity,Taylor looks done,Morris production is fading and Faulk can't do it all himself anymore,BJGE will be cut,this may be for another thread but the RB situation is just as bad as WR IMO - There may be more 'deceptive' depth at RB than WR, but the level of positive production or shall I say lack of at RB, brings that number down.

I won't lie after reading this I'm very curious about your breakdown of other positions

 

[tanked_as_usual]

So like the 2003 offense was balanced and was dangerously hard to stop later in the season. Just ask the Titans

it is a tough call, but the current offense puts up crazy numbers, but simply has a very tough time dealing with teams that decide to get very physical

its fun to watch, but gets very frustrating when it comes to a grinding halt late in the season.

being in the shotgun 80% of the time and running from it is just tough to stomach sometimes.....

the weis system more consitently controlled the ball

 

[alvinnf]

it is a tough call, but the current offense puts up crazy numbers, but simply has a very tough time dealing with teams that decide to get very physical

its fun to watch, but gets very frustrating when it comes to a grinding halt late in the season.

being in the shotgun 80% of the time and running from it is just tough to stomach sometimes.....

the weis system more consitently controlled the ball

This was their achilles heal last season. There were many times when the D needed a break or more so a first down in critical situations. They tried to grind it out and couldn't. They also could execute the passing game out of run formations when need be.

Had Miami on the ropes could'nt get a first down late, 3 and out.
Had back to back sub 6 play drives against Indy in Indy, late at critical times.
Couldn't get a first down late against the Texans, three and out and gonzo to a 14 pt lead.

These are just three examples. I don't think we need to turn into a running team, but more balance and a tougher run blocking scheme would help. Let these guys in line block more often, less zone side step blocking.......

 

[IcyPatriot]

Can Hoyer catch a pass ...

 

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

I won't lie after reading this I'm very curious about your breakdown of other positions

Well to start at LB,we don't know if we will have the Mayo of 2008 or the Mayo of 2009,We don't know whether it was that injury and too quick of a return that affected Mayo's decline off his rookie season nor do we know if Mayo was the beneficiary of a veteran group still in place in 2008 with Bruschi and Harrison and Vrabel still around - So with all those questions still unanswered we don't know how weak the LB situation is because Mayo will be a big part of either being a force and leader or the LB situation can worsen,I think OLB is nothing but a disaster right now.

The secondary needs leadership,organization during the games and someone to pick up the slack whether its Wilhite or Springs or hopefully a stud CB in the draft.

Bottom line is this team has way too many holes to fill adequately in one year -it will take some time, However I am sure the team will fill some holes and for those that are not filled by august then the team will make the best of it from what they have currently at the position along with maybe a rookie in the mix
The only hole that is a MUST right now and WILL be taken care of is TE,Several other positions need work and may or may not be addressed as much as we'd like or hope for.

The drafts of 2006 and 2007 (not including those trades for Wes and Randy) - were weak at best and right now basing it on a 3 year window for rookies,it has not panned out for most of those selections those 2 years and because of that,our depth and talent is a bit weak in some areas - no one can deny that better drafts those years and our holes on the team would probably be a little better set but BB can't see the future so we really have no one to blame,just a bit of bad luck.

 

[Jangles]

Letting Anquan Boldin get away is really looking like a brilliant move

Good job FO. You guys are an inspiration to the league

 

[Metaphors]

Unless there is a change in the number of gameday actives, we really need to keep in mind that a good number of players in those 45 have to block and tackle in the kicking game. Outside of the handful of players that only contribute on ST, the bottom of the depth chart for OL, RB, DE, S, WR, OLB and ILB will be getting dirty in the kicking game. Doesn't mean that guys like Aiken, Alexander, Woods, Morris, Wright, Sanders, etc. couldn't be upgraded at their position...but the job they do on ST is probably more valuable.

Aiken is the #5 receiver because that position has ST responsibilities. Don't want him to get starter snaps because he has other work to do. Same for Wright. Same for the others. They have to step up on the regular offense and defense when asked, but that wouldn't be Plan A.

So if you are uncomfortable with Tate as a top 4 receiver on the depth chart, he should be cut. I don't think it is a good approach to cut a 3rd round pick before they turn 23 yo, play in their 3rd game or catch their 1st pass. Tate should have competition in camp (as should everyone else), but not from a guy who is expected (in cost and salary terms) to displace him.

 

[BradyManny]

Unless there is a change in the number of gameday actives, we really need to keep in mind that a good number of players in those 45 have to block and tackle in the kicking game. Outside of the handful of players that only contribute on ST, the bottom of the depth chart for OL, RB, DE, S, WR, OLB and ILB will be getting dirty in the kicking game. Doesn't mean that guys like Aiken, Alexander, Woods, Morris, Wright, Sanders, etc. couldn't be upgraded at their position...but the job they do on ST is probably more valuable.

Aiken is the #5 receiver because that position has ST responsibilities. Don't want him to get starter snaps because he has other work to do. Same for Wright. Same for the others. They have to step up on the regular offense and defense when asked, but that wouldn't be Plan A.

So if you are uncomfortable with Tate as a top 4 receiver on the depth chart, he should be cut. I don't think it is a good approach to cut a 3rd round pick before they turn 23 yo, play in their 3rd game or catch their 1st pass. Tate should have competition in camp (as should everyone else), but not from a guy who is expected (in cost and salary terms) to displace him.

Metaphors - while I respect the opinion, I disagree quite a bit on this issue - that position has not always been for ST purposes only. Again, look back to the roster in 2003/04 - you have Branch, Givens, Patten, Brown, & Bethel. The only guy there who contributed as an ST was Bethel, and that was as a returner. Already on this team you have two guys who can contribute as returners from the WR position - Edelman & Tate - and if, for instance, you picked up Reed & Gilyard, both those guys have experience there as well. The ST positions can be fielded from any position on the squad, even TE or OL or heck, QB (Gutes).

To say that the 5th receiver on our team MUST be someone who can contribute in the kicking game - excluding returns - seems to be a very hard rule to follow for a team that a) uses 3 wideouts the majority of the time b) their best wideout is in a contract year and could leave c) their best wideout is aging and fought off injuries d) their slot receiver is recovering from an ACL injury e) their two young talents at the position are unknowns in some extent (one a conversion project, one with injury history). To summarize - there is a lot of unknown at the WR position in the short term and in the long term. When you do not know for sure how Tate/Edelman/Welker will contribute next season - and when you don't know where Moss will be in 2011, you have to build in contingencies. And those contingencies will take up roster spots. I strongly believe we can afford 5 out of the 53 to pure wide receivers (meaning, not Aiken), particularly since many of our wideouts contribute as returnmen. (I know that doesn't fill out the ST units, but its still a necessary role.)

 

[iapatsfan]

In addition to 5 WR, we need OLmen that have shown the ability to run block, and a threat at RB. Right now we have neither of those. This offense, as it is currently made up, is a below avg offense. Randy is aging and unhappy, Welker is over a season away from having a chance at being the player he was before the injury, Aiken is terrible, Tate has done nothing and Edelman is a decent slot guy. I have said this many times on this board and I will say it again, this offense is in major trouble in 2010. I really have no idea how we are going to move the ball next year. We had a glimpse of what this O looks like without Welker against Baltimore, and it was ugly. Brady works best with multiple viable options to throw to, and right now he has one (who is aging and unhappy by the way). Honestly, how difficult is this offense to defend as it is currently constructed? Double Randy and let Edelman beat you. I know it is only March, but if you just look at the very few playmakers this team has on it's roster, 8-8 looks like a good record for next season.

 

[fgssand]

With the patriots not using the tight end and running backs much as receivers, it is time to accept that in order for Brady to have enough weapons, we need five wide receivers that are able to be significant contributers.

For me, Tate is the #5 for now, with Patten, Aiken and Stanback as alternatives if he fails.
===========
We have no #2 or #4. Moss is a fine #1 and Edelman is a fine #3 (slot) wide receiver.
==============

I have said that the offense is almost set with regard to roster, needing only 2 TE's, 2 WR's and a RB upgrade. The other 20 positions are fine. However, this is a tall order when we continue to pass on receivers and tight ends, even in these first week or so. Every day a receiver option goes away. It is early, but as of now, even ignoring Brady, we are one injury away from total disaster on the offense. If we want to consider ourselves a Super Bowl, we should be able to play without Moss for at least some of the year. We know that Welker is no playing anyn time soon; it's not like he got injured in Game 1.

Tate is going to surprise just about everyone here, except me I think - seems everyone is very high on Mckenzie as a LB at Patsfans ( I am as well), yet there is no love at all for Tate.

I see them both in the same light - both injured in their rookie seasons and both have a year under their belt in the system from a preparation, playbook learning, and training standpoint. While Mckensie was a #3 - Tate woudl have been a number ! had he not been inured in his senior year.

Both have great potential.

So, in my mind, we are looking goos at the receiver position, all things considered.

We have Moss, Edleman, Tate & Patten. We have Aiken & Stanback as last resorts. We will hopefully see Welker by game 6 or so and hopefully he rounds into shape down the stretch.

So, we can look for draft packs and free agents to round out the WR group and bring us a couple of TE's.

Just doesn't seem that bad to me....