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OK, we officially need 5 receivers


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Yes, we 'need' another downfield threat if we want to compete in the upper-tier of the NFL again. It is not a luxury.

While there are many that would agree with my statement, I am fine with you not agreeing, as I said before now several times, not everyone can agree.

We are not agreeing on need vs. want--and I am OK with that, actually I could honestly care less. I stated several times that I respected your opinion, even though I (and much of the fan base) don't agree with it.

Note the title of the thread--We NEED 5 WR's

Not really sure what else you want?
 
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Yes, we 'need' another downfield threat if we want to compete in the upper-tier of the NFL again. It is not a luxury.

I disagree, for example the 2003 defense with the 2009 offense probably wins the superbowl.

While there are many that would agree with my statement, I am fine with you not agreeing, as I said before now several times, not everyone can agree.

We are not agreeing on need vs. want--and I am OK with that, actually I could honestly care less. I stated several times that I respected your opinion, even though I (and much of the fan base) don't agree with it.

Note the title of the thread--We NEED 5 WR's

Not really sure what else you want?

Right we aren't in much disagreement on how we could improve the team, we are only in disagreement on the usage of the word need which implies an impossibility without. Of course I understand society in general uses the word need to replace "really want" so I guess we can just move on from that. I respect your opinion as well and sincerely hope the tone of my posts do not suggest otherwise.

So what are your ideas about that #2 wideout spot?
 
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Last year we used a top 100 pick to draft a WR not for 2009 but for 2010 and beyond. The only reason he saw the field at all is because Galloway sucked. Edleman won the position given to Lewis. Each year you have to consider injuries, at least 1 WR wont finish the year on the roster. With our TE position in flux, maybe we keep only 2 of those and keep 6 WRs(given its Aiken as #6/ST). Moss does work best in the cross-rift with Welker, we can only hope Edleman continues where he left off last season.
It doesnt make sense spending $$ on a FA or another high draft pick til you see where Welker is in his rehab and how confident you are in Tate's grasp of the offense. If Tate is to be used returning kicks I would think that more than anything would require us to get WR#6. Maroney returning kickoffs would carve half that load off. But we do need competition in camp, ideally it would be with a vet FA on a 1 yr "prove it" deal. As teams add/cut players sooner or later we should find someone that fits. Unless there is a mid-round steal, I would bet heavily against a top 100 pick used for a WR. A guy for ST to push Aiken/developmental/practice squad guy would be the only chance in the draft unless someone gets hit by a truck.
 
Last year we used a top 100 pick to draft a WR not for 2009 but for 2010 and beyond. The only reason he saw the field at all is because Galloway sucked. Edleman won the position given to Lewis. Each year you have to consider injuries, at least 1 WR wont finish the year on the roster. With our TE position in flux, maybe we keep only 2 of those and keep 6 WRs(given its Aiken as #6/ST). Moss does work best in the cross-rift with Welker, we can only hope Edleman continues where he left off last season.
It doesnt make sense spending $$ on a FA or another high draft pick til you see where Welker is in his rehab and how confident you are in Tate's grasp of the offense. If Tate is to be used returning kicks I would think that more than anything would require us to get WR#6. Maroney returning kickoffs would carve half that load off. But we do need competition in camp, ideally it would be with a vet FA on a 1 yr "prove it" deal. As teams add/cut players sooner or later we should find someone that fits. Unless there is a mid-round steal, I would bet heavily against a top 100 pick used for a WR. A guy for ST to push Aiken/developmental/practice squad guy would be the only chance in the draft unless someone gets hit by a truck.

100% agree (with u2 emoney). Reasonable and well thought out. My biggest issue with people wanting to bring in Boldin AND a top 50 pick is that they don't consider what the team would be like if Tate is a keeper, if Edelman continues to develop rapidly, if Welker has a positive recovery. You obviously can't guarantee any of these things happening, but why invest scarce and valuable resources in case they ALL DON'T happen. It is like a healthy, single 25 yo buying $2M in life insurance. Can't guarantee it won't be needed, but chances are it is not the best use of money.

Say the Pats signed Boldin and drafted Benn (or whoever) in the 2nd round. Round about week 10, the depth chart could be:

Moss
Boldin
Welker
Edelman
Tate
Aiken (he is either #5 or #6 because of ST)
Benn

That is at best impractical and at worst impossible. Impractical because Tate would get no work with Brady in practice and Benn would never be active. It might be impossible based on the roster spots needed for the other positions.

If these people want to dump Moss in a contract year, go for it. Or get rid of Edelman. Or Tate. I wouldn't do these things but at least the roster composition would make more sense. But the Pats just can't collect WR like an old lady collects cats.
 
With the patriots not using the tight end and running backs much as receivers, it is time to accept that in order for Brady to have enough weapons, we need five wide receivers that are able to be significant contributers.

For me, Tate is the #5 for now, with Patten, Aiken and Stanback as alternatives if he fails.
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We have no #2 or #4. Moss is a fine #1 and Edelman is a fine #3 (slot) wide receiver.
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Ah it is worse than that. Edelman is sure to injured after a few games considering the hits he took in the Baltimore game; does anyone think that the tape will not be watching. Edelman was hammered; he does not protect his body.

As far as Tate he was brought back too soon (as was Mayo etc.); playing him next year will again be bringing him back too soon but they will do it anyway.

And I suspect that Welker will be brought back too soon (I can just hear him saying as Mayo did "Sure coach I am fine. Send me in") and get re-injured or play impaired.

That leaves us with Moss (with ice packs on both knees and his back), Patten, Aiken and Stanback!! Wow that will scare the opposing defenses!

WTF is the Patriots front office thinking? That Old Man Moss can carry to the offense?
 
Some really good posts in this thread. My opinion is that if the Patriots are going to run a 3 WR set as their base offense, they need a minimum of 4 quality options (and would feel more comfortable with 5). For opening day, the Patriots currently have at most two guys who fit the quality description in Moss and Edelman. The Patriots need 2 guys to fill out their WR depth chart to start the season and one of those 2 needs to be a guy that is a bigger weapon than Julian Edelman (meaning the likes of Josh Reed does not fit the bill). The other player can be a minimum level vet like Josh Reed who competes with Tate and Stanbeck for the 4th WR position.

Depth Chart I feel is needed

Moss
Edelman (slot)
FA/Trade for 2nd outside starter
Veteran/Draft pick for no.4 WR spot
Tate as no.5, hope he gets healthy(possibly game day inactive)
Aiken as no.6/ST only

Welker on PUP until week 6 or later.
 
100% agree (with u2 emoney). Reasonable and well thought out. My biggest issue with people wanting to bring in Boldin AND a top 50 pick is that they don't consider what the team would be like if Tate is a keeper, if Edelman continues to develop rapidly, if Welker has a positive recovery. You obviously can't guarantee any of these things happening, but why invest scarce and valuable resources in case they ALL DON'T happen. It is like a healthy, single 25 yo buying $2M in life insurance. Can't guarantee it won't be needed, but chances are it is not the best use of money.

Say the Pats signed Boldin and drafted Benn (or whoever) in the 2nd round. Round about week 10, the depth chart could be:

Moss
Boldin
Welker
Edelman
Tate
Aiken (he is either #5 or #6 because of ST)
Benn

That is at best impractical and at worst impossible. Impractical because Tate would get no work with Brady in practice and Benn would never be active. It might be impossible based on the roster spots needed for the other positions.

If these people want to dump Moss in a contract year, go for it. Or get rid of Edelman. Or Tate. I wouldn't do these things but at least the roster composition would make more sense. But the Pats just can't collect WR like an old lady collects cats.

I agree that too many WR's could be impractical. I am simply stating that at worst they need a solid #2 to stretch the field on the outside, opposite Moss. This would allow a combination of a strong first 3, allowing Edelman/Welker to do what they do best, play the slot and run underneath routes. This would allow Moss to utilize his strengths (more circa 07), taking a bit of the coverage and gameplanning focus solely off of him, give Brady a reliable target with the #2, and allow Edelman/Welker to play the slot and continue to have open underneath routes.

The rest of the 4-5, or 4 thru 6 actually could be just fine the way it is now. So, to use your example, I would try and choose one of the following but not both: FA/trade for #2, or draft pick (not both). The problem with the draft pick is that it likely will take some time for him to learn, get on the same page, and execute--so I wouldn't 'count' on major production from a draft pick or Tate, (or Welker for that matter). Any significant contributions from any of them would be considered pure bonuses. A draft pick along with even Tate are basically still in learning phase, while Welker likely will miss half the season and should be counted on for nothing, IMO.

To bottom line it--I really don't see a huge glaring need for anything else but a good, reliable, solid #2. That would at least give us a strong first 3, and at worst a couple solid targets should injury occur. The rest of the 4-6 can be a combo of Tate, minor acquisition such as Reed/if not Aiken, and/or a draft pick or Stanback depending on the draft choice. I'm not one who is calling for anything but another solid option opposite Moss, for more viable options for Brady--or should injury occur.

Offensive attacking is supposed to be our best attribute, and strongest point of the team. You could see obvious problems and even questionable body language (did I say body language?;) ) from Brady at times. It certainly seemed as though he wanted another option or 2, and that was before the loss of Welker and Watson. If you look at some of the more offensive minded teams in today's NFL, you'll certainly see a trend involving their WR's/down the field TE's. You could start with Indy or New Orleans in the SB, go to Minnesota, Arizona, Philly, Pittsburgh, SD, Dallas, hell--even Baltimore got on board with many receiving options too.

Apparently the thought of the idea passed through the FO too, as we had recent rumors of talks with Boldin and a want in Bryant. I'm not suggesting an upper-tier WR of those calibers, but I bet a certain #12 wouldn't mind either.
 
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Some really good posts in this thread. My opinion is that if the Patriots are going to run a 3 WR set as their base offense, they need a minimum of 4 quality options (and would feel more comfortable with 5). For opening day, the Patriots currently have at most two guys who fit the quality description in Moss and Edelman. The Patriots need 2 guys to fill out their WR depth chart to start the season and one of those 2 needs to be a guy that is a bigger weapon than Julian Edelman (meaning the likes of Josh Reed does not fit the bill). The other player can be a minimum level vet like Josh Reed who competes with Tate and Stanbeck for the 4th WR position.

Depth Chart I feel is needed

Moss
Edelman (slot)
FA/Trade for 2nd outside starter
Veteran/Draft pick for no.4 WR spot
Tate as no.5, hope he gets healthy(possibly game day inactive)
Aiken as no.6/ST only

Welker on PUP until week 6 or later.

This is pretty much what I am talking about right here. These options would work just fine. The addition of a 2nd FA/draft pick as a #4 wouldn't be a 'need' but an added bonus. The only 'need' for certain would be another viable downfield threat opposite Moss, to do what Galloway was supposed to do.

My only change would be to start Tate as a 4, and possibly use the draft pick/FA as a possible game day inactive as a 5.
 
supafly, out of curiosity why do you feel they drafted Brandon Tate?

If they feel he can develop into a good receiver, why would they put him at #4/#5 ? I'm just saying, they drafted the kid in the 3rd round last year and you already are ready to bury him on the depth chart simply because we as fans don't know what to expect? How can we ever groom any WR of the future if we bury them on the depth chart.
 
supafly, out of curiosity why do you feel they drafted Brandon Tate?

If they feel he can develop into a good receiver, why would they put him at #4/#5 ? I'm just saying, they drafted the kid in the 3rd round last year and you already are ready to bury him on the depth chart simply because we as fans don't know what to expect? How can we ever groom any WR of the future if we bury them on the depth chart.
The first game he played at Wembley, they tried to get him involved as much as they could. First snap of second series, he was given an endaround which he took 13yds for a first down. Then there was the deep ball to him that was picked off. But Aiken then got the big TD and the snaps for the rest of the game and to be honest, we barely threw the ball for the 4th quarter when the Receivers were on the sideline.

I think he could be our Harvin-type WR. I don't think he is far off Golden Tate's talent either. But the injury and drug problems knocked him down the draft.

I think he can be our 3rd WR at the start of the year. With Edelman in the slot. I'd like us to draft Gilyard or at least kick the tyres on another deep threat (TO?) who even if they bust out, we can then give these extra snaps to the rookie and Tate.
 
supafly, out of curiosity why do you feel they drafted Brandon Tate?

If they feel he can develop into a good receiver, why would they put him at #4/#5 ? I'm just saying, they drafted the kid in the 3rd round last year and you already are ready to bury him on the depth chart simply because we as fans don't know what to expect? How can we ever groom any WR of the future if we bury them on the depth chart.

It's funny that DoCE has Tate at #5, while I stick up for him and make him a #4, yet you choose to ask me instead of him:confused:

When you have Moss as a #1, a solid FA/vet as a #2, Welker as a #3--where else do you put him? LOL
 
No one's trying to 'bury' anyone on the depth chart dude. I believe our HOF coach will blend him in slowly, and give him some nice opportunities at times, the same way Bethel and CJ were. I think there will be some plays/routes called at times specifically for him.

But to claim that a rookie (for all intents/purposes) who has hurt both knees and had major ACL/MCL surgery in successive seasons will be opposite Moss come game one is at best--extremely homeristic, not to mention grasping at straws.

Where we disagree (again, for the 3rd-4th time) is that:

--YOU are counting on Tate to contribute significantly, so much that you have him as the #2 WR opposite Moss (counting Edelman/Welker as a #3)

--I am suggesting that he'll be given some great opportunities to contribute at times, and he can maybe even catch 30-35 balls. He needs to continue to learn the playbook, and a system that has been directly called by our coach as 'extremely complicated' and difficult to learn. All, in all, I believe he will be successful here--but I am not 'counting' on him, nor should the front office. We cannot sit around and 'hope' for the best.
 
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It's funny that DoCE has Tate at #5, while I stick up for him and make him a #4, yet you choose to ask me instead of him:confused:

When you have Moss as a #1, a solid FA/vet as a #2, Welker as a #3--where else do you put him? LOL

It's late, I skimmed the posts, sorry. But I would like to hear Doce's thoughts on my question as well.
 
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No one's trying to 'bury' anyone on the depth chart dude. I believe our HOF coach will blend him in slowly, and give him some nice opportunities at times, the same way Bethel and CJ were. I think there will be some plays/routes called at times specifically for him.

So take 4 years to develop him with minimal reps with Brady?

But to claim that a rookie (for all intents/purposes) who has hurt both knees and had major ACL/MCL surgery in successive seasons will be opposite Moss come game one is at best--extremely homeristic, not to mention grasping at straws.

I'm not saying do nothing and rely on Tate as the #2 wideout.

Where we disagree (again, for the 3rd-4th time) is that:

--YOU are counting on Tate to contribute significantly, so much that you have him as the #2 WR opposite Moss (counting Edelman/Welker as a #3)

--I am suggesting that he'll be given some great opportunities to contribute at times, and he can maybe even catch 30-35 balls. He needs to continue to learn the playbook, and a system that has been directly called by our coach as 'extremely complicated' and difficult to learn. All, in all, I believe he will be successful here--but I am not 'counting' on him, nor should the front office. We cannot sit around and 'hope' for the best.

I meant to respond to Doce who wants 4 or 5 receivers ahead of Tate. I'm not relying on Tate to be the #2, and never once suggested that.

I have said that whether or not they should try hard to get 1 or 2 more receivers is dependent on how the coaches feel the chances are of Tate and/or Welker performing this year.
 
So take 4 years to develop him with minimal reps with Brady?



I'm not saying do nothing and rely on Tate as the #2 wideout.



I meant to respond to Doce who wants 4 or 5 receivers ahead of Tate. I'm not relying on Tate to be the #2, and never once suggested that.

I have said that whether or not they should try hard to get 1 or 2 more receivers is dependent on how the coaches feel the chances are of Tate and/or Welker performing this year.

I don't know where you got anything about 4 yrs development time, when I suggested that he would contribute this year, although through slower development than you'd hope for. CJ wasn't even here for 4 yrs, and Bethel was contributing on some levels too--although not what we hoped for. I said I thought he'd catch as many balls as somewhere between Watson and Stallworth would, somewhere about 30-40. I imagine he'll have routes specifically for him, and figure he'll score 4-5 TD's even. No one is writing off Tate, or burying him. All I am saying is that he shouldn't be relied upon either. If he develops into a good option, all the better.

If you're not suggesting to rely on Tate as a #2, then the only other place he can be is a #4--which it what I suggested. Since you scoffed at me, then yes, you are suggesting him at #2. What else could you be saying?

And your big 'theory' of where the coaches see Welker contributing is almost silly. What do the coaches know at this point? He's barely walking, one month after major surgery. Although they have a better grasp than the average fan, they cannot predict the future either. Since they look over at him and see him on crutches, one month into a likely 9-12 month recovery, where do they see him contributing? I'd have to guess and take a stab that they see him in a best case scenario coming back halfway into the season. I'd like to think they'll be a little more proactive in choosing other options right now, instead of hoping and wishing for the best. He's not Brady, who is basically immobile. They have one of the top weapons in the game, and to suggest they 'know' anything about his return in the fall is interesting. They will take their time with our top offensive weapon, I thought that was something we'd agree on.


The bottom line is my original point, on the last page, which is Tate and Welker should not be relied upon, although I imagine they'll contribute to some nice levels. Welker later in the year, and the same for Tate, who I still believe will be blended in nicely--but won't be the #2 opposite Moss, at least not early on in the year.

We saw some glaring problems with Welker and Watson playing last year, now that they're gone, we need another viable downfield threat. I don't see what the big debate is about.
 
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This is pretty much what I am talking about right here. These options would work just fine. The addition of a 2nd FA/draft pick as a #4 wouldn't be a 'need' but an added bonus. The only 'need' for certain would be another viable downfield threat opposite Moss, to do what Galloway was supposed to do.

My only change would be to start Tate as a 4, and possibly use the draft pick/FA as a possible game day inactive as a 5.

I think Tate certainly has the talent to be the no.4 (or better), but as I stated I'd like a draft pick/FA to compete for that position with him. I am not comfortable giving Tate that 4th slot with 2 knee injuries in the last 2 seasons. I don't know how he will respond to his injury and I don't know if he will be able to remain healthy if he does regain the form he showed at UNC. I agree that the loser of the Tate battle with a draft pick/fa would likely be a game day inactive. I think we are on pretty much the same wavelength in that we believe there is a need to have 4 WR's active each week that we have a good degree of confidence in. If Tate's the 4th or if someone like Josh Reed is the 4th, that's fine (obviously hoping for Tate as the upside is far greater). The big thing is that we need a starter who can strike some fear in the defense and there is nobody left in FA that can do that with the possible exception of T.O. (who I do not want).
 
The reciever situation would be a simple solution

1 Sign Josh Reed
2 Trade a number 4 pick and get Deion Branch back here
3 Trade a number 2 for Greg Olson
4 Draft a stud WR...

But as if's and buts were candy and nuts everyday would be Christmas..

I would settle for at least number 1 right now... We cant have the same WR situation as last year, not to mention no wes welker this year or at least till nov...
 
At this point in the offseason it isn't about determining who is going to line up across from Moss in September. This team is going to add lots of players to the competition between now and then, and I think it will be a nice mix of cheap veteran players with performance or injury question marks and some draft picks. Starting wide receivers can be found outside of rounds one or two, possibly even more so this year, but the veterans will provide insurance, competition and hopefully some peace of mind for Brady.

Tate had "minor surgery" to his knee after he went on I.R. Clearly it wasn't an ACL tear. His knee is probably not toast and he is/will be fully participating in the offseason program. He has a lot of potential to make an impact this year, and it isn't blindly optimistic to think that a talented second year wide receiver participating in all offseason camps could make huge strides. Of course the team shouldn't operate assuming he'll be the answer at the position, but let's not relegate him to gameday inactive just yet (especially because he has the potential to be an ace return man).

A Josh Reed type and a gamble on Kevin Curtis (should he become available, and he probably will) or Javon Walker (who had surgery common in soccer to regrow the cartilage in the knee) should be enough to supplement a few draft picks and undrafted free agent tryouts and set the team up for a deep if unspectacular core behind Moss and Edelman.
 
The Patriots really have nobody in full working order for the WR spot!

Moss: Ice packs on both knees, bad back, the Jackals in the local media hate him.
Welker: If you bring him back, you risk re-aggravating the knee (they will bring him back too early)
Tate: Ditto
Edelman: Will only last a few games if he keeps taking hits as in the Baltimore game

Who's left? It not like Brady can throw to a TE either.

WTF is the coaching staff thinking? Draft three WRs? How about the other holes such as DE, TE, OLB and CB????
 
The Patriots really have nobody in full working order for the WR spot!

Moss: Ice packs on both knees, bad back, the Jackals in the local media hate him.
Welker: If you bring him back, you risk re-aggravating the knee (they will bring him back too early)
Tate: Ditto
Edelman: Will only last a few games if he keeps taking hits as in the Baltimore game

Who's left? It not like Brady can throw to a TE either.

WTF is the coaching staff thinking? Draft three WRs? How about the other holes such as DE, TE, OLB and CB????
Tate's injury wasn't that bad. They IR'ed him as he wasn't valuable enough to use a roster spot on for 6 weeks in his rookie season
 
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