Rebuilding: Where do we start

[VJCPatriot]

Re: Rebuilding where do we start

As far as the rebuilding goes I would like to see the Patriots draft a good RB and let him run the ball. 4, 5 or 6 RB'S is NOT the answer.

Also note today when the Jets had both Wayne and Clarke covered Manning killed the Jets with 2 other WR's. Number one the Patriots d not have this kind of talent and number 2 as long as Moss is on this team Brady will continue to force the ball to him while not even looking at anyone else other than Welker.

While being a unique talent Moss is not good for this team. IMHO.

He was good for this team in 2007. What was different that year? Oh yeah, the Pats actually had REAL receivers outside of Welker and Moss. Brady distributed the ball quite well that year. I'm tired of everyone trying to blame Moss for this offense's failures. You might as well say that Welker is bad for this team because Brady locks onto him on 3rd down passes.

What this offense needs is better line play, drafting/signing a good RG/C would fix that. And they also need some secondary/tertiary receivers that are real options. Not resigning Gaffney and not going after a guy like Devery Henderson in free agency was a mistake.

I would also say that Tight End is a need, particularly if Watson leaves for greener pastures, read big money contract. The Pats haven't had a Ben Coates tight end in a while, getting a guy like that would really help the offense, especially when defenses dial up the blitz. Brady could dump the ball off to the TE with confidence. He hasn't really had 'confidence' factor with Watson's hands of stones showing up at the worse moments.

 

[upstater1]

Austin Collie and Garcon are much much better receivers than people are giving them credit for.

Anthony Gonzalez can't hold a candle to those two, and if it's Manning that makes Collie, then why can't he make Gonzalez into a Collie?

Don't get me wrong. I think Manning would work wonders with Larry Fitzgerald out there, and yes he makes passable WRs like Collie into bonafide NFL wideouts, but that doesn't mean he could work with Aiken or Stanback or any of those guys.

You have to give a kid like Collie credit. He runs good routes and he's tough and he has good hands.

 

[JackBauer]

Gonzalez is basically as good as Collie.

So when he comes back healthy... well, that's bad news for the rest of us, I guess.

 

[dhamz]

Don't get me wrong. I think Manning would work wonders with Larry Fitzgerald out there, and yes he makes passable WRs like Collie into bonafide NFL wideouts, but that doesn't mean he could work with Aiken or Stanback or any of those guys.

You have to give a kid like Collie credit. He runs good routes and he's tough and he has good hands.

I haven't figured out how people think Sam Aikens hands would suddenly catch the passes that bounced off them the last half of the year just because they were thrown by Peyton Manning. I'm not bashing Aiken - he is what he is a solid ST player and an emergecy stopgap at WR.

Collie and Garcon aren't all-pros and the Colts don't need them to be. They already have the best pass catching TE in football and one of the 4 or 5 best WRs. Those 2 guys basically catch the same amount of passes for the Colts that Welker/Moss do for the Pats. They need the other guys to run their routes, get open, and catch the passes that do come their way. Garcon and Collie do that very well.

The Pats don't need to go get a Brandon Mashall type to fix their WR corp. They need to get a couple guys who can run the right routes, get open, and catch the balls that come their way.

 

[mgteich]

You do understand that Dallas Clark and Reggie Wayne were non-factors against the jets.

Collie and Garcon looked great because
1) The schemes and routes are relatively simple.
2) They have had weeks and weeks of individual practice with Manning.
3) Playcalling took advantage of their strengths.

With regard to 2010, they will add Gonzalez who is as talented as these two.

I haven't figured out how people think Sam Aikens hands would suddenly catch the passes that bounced off them the last half of the year just because they were thrown by Peyton Manning. I'm not bashing Aiken - he is what he is a solid ST player and an emergecy stopgap at WR.

Collie and Garcon aren't all-pros and the Colts don't need them to be. They already have the best pass catching TE in football and one of the 4 or 5 best WRs. Those 2 guys basically catch the same amount of passes for the Colts that Welker/Moss do for the Pats. They need the other guys to run their routes, get open, and catch the passes that do come their way. Garcon and Collie do that very well.

The Pats don't need to go get a Brandon Mashall type to fix their WR corp. They need to get a couple guys who can run the right routes, get open, and catch the balls that come their way.

 

[dhamz]

You do understand that Dallas Clark and Reggie Wayne were non-factors against the jets.

Collie and Garcon looked great because
1) The schemes and routes are relatively simple.
2) They have had weeks and weeks of individual practice with Manning.
3) Playcalling took advantage of their strengths.

With regard to 2010, they will add Gonzalez who is as talented as these two.

Clark and Wayne each caught 100 balls this season. They are the focus of the passing game every week in Indy. Last week was 1 Sunday when the defense effectively took them away and the other guys had to step up and did. They certainly deserve credit for that.

As for the weeks and weeks of practice, there was an SI story about Brady over the summer detailing his workouts with Moss, Welker, Lewis, and Galloway. It didn't help the last 2.

I have no doubt the play calling took advantage of their strengths - running precise routes and catching the ball. Sam Aken's strengths are special teams - covering punts. What routes can be called on offense to take advantage of that?

Collie and Garcon aren't great. I don't know anyone who says they are. They are solid WRs. They can do the job required of them. Put a solid WR on the other side of Moss with Welker in the slot and Brady throwing the ball and he'll be effective. We've had plenty of solid, not great WRs contribute here in this decade - Patten, Givens, and Gaffney come to mind immediately.

 

[mgteich]

Collie and Garcon didn't step up for the first time in the jets game.

Patten was a fine starter. He shouldn't be included with the other backups.

I agree that Givens and Gaffney were hugely better than Lewis and Galloway.
=============================
The bottom line is that we need to replace Welker for 2010, secure two more receivers, and have a backup.

Belichick needs to figure out where the problem is. Part of the reason for the failure could be schemes, talent, scouting, coaching (OC, WR and QB), complexity of scheme, fitting in, drafting and practice methods. Whatever the issue is, Belichick will need to solve it.
======================================================
Yes, Brady spent extra time practicing with Lewis and Galloway, as a quarteback would with any new receiver. Manning has practiced DAILY with his receivers for the past 12 years. He spent days and days with only Collie, and days and days with only Garcon. I'm not saying that this is essential to success. Surely Brady didn't do this in 2007. Manning and Moore and the colts receivers have a different way of operating than anyone in the nfl (ever).

Clark and Wayne each caught 100 balls this season. They are the focus of the passing game every week in Indy. Last week was 1 Sunday when the defense effectively took them away and the other guys had to step up and did. They certainly deserve credit for that.

As for the weeks and weeks of practice, there was an SI story about Brady over the summer detailing his workouts with Moss, Welker, Lewis, and Galloway. It didn't help the last 2.

I have no doubt the play calling took advantage of their strengths - running precise routes and catching the ball. Sam Aken's strengths are special teams - covering punts. What routes can be called on offense to take advantage of that?

Collie and Garcon aren't great. I don't know anyone who says they are. They are solid WRs. They can do the job required of them. Put a solid WR on the other side of Moss with Welker in the slot and Brady throwing the ball and he'll be effective. We've had plenty of solid, not great WRs contribute here in this decade - Patten, Givens, and Gaffney come to mind immediately.

 

[upstater1]

You do understand that Dallas Clark and Reggie Wayne were non-factors against the jets.

Collie and Garcon looked great because
1) The schemes and routes are relatively simple.
2) They have had weeks and weeks of individual practice with Manning.
3) Playcalling took advantage of their strengths.

With regard to 2010, they will add Gonzalez who is as talented as these two.

I like both of the others much more than Gonzalez primarily because I don't think Gonzalez has anywhere near the toughness, and of course the WRs benefit from single coverage because they are option #3 and #4. No doubt, and yet I see them grabbing balls in tight coverage, often getting walloped hard by defenders, and they hand onto the ball.

 

[upstater1]

Collie and Garcon didn't step up for the first time in the jets game.

Patten was a fine starter. He shouldn't be included with the other backups.

I agree that Givens and Gaffney were hugely better than Lewis and Galloway.
=============================
The bottom line is that we need to replace Welker for 2010, secure two more receivers, and have a backup.

Belichick needs to figure out where the problem is. Part of the reason for the failure could be schemes, talent, scouting, coaching (OC, WR and QB), complexity of scheme, fitting in, drafting and practice methods. Whatever the issue is, Belichick will need to solve it.
======================================================
Yes, Brady spent extra time practicing with Lewis and Galloway, as a quarteback would with any new receiver. Manning has practiced DAILY with his receivers for the past 12 years. He spent days and days with only Collie, and days and days with only Garcon. I'm not saying that this is essential to success. Surely Brady didn't do this in 2007. Manning and Moore and the colts receivers have a different way of operating than anyone in the nfl (ever).

The problem is bringing in the wrong guys. None of the guys who failed with the Patriots have ever accomplished anything after they were cut, so we can assume they had a talent deficiency, while other guys who were brought in like Patten and Welker and to a degree Gaffney (I admit I'm not a fan) have done well enough, so I don't see this as the offense being too difficult as much as it is bad drafting.

Edelman looked good, a QB and a 7th rounder. He looked better than Stallworth or Greg Lewis! That's telling.

We need to look for good receivers in college, guys that actually made plays. Too often the stud athletes like Bethel Johnson and Chad Jackson are not going to give us what we're looking for.

 

[Ice Cold Bruschi]

Draft Needs:
OLB
DE
(Invest multiple picks in these two positions injuries to McKenzie and Crable the last few years have been devastating to our defenses youth movement)
WR
TE
RB
CB
QB

 

[Sicilian]

Mayo may be done.

Based on.......?

 

[ctpatsfan77]

Based on.......?

The wisdom of trolls.

 

[Kpatte08]

My thoughts are you need to re-sign Wilfork, Mankins, Bodden and Faulk. The 2010 draft fills a couple defencive holes like 22 OLB (Kindle), 44 ILB (Spikes) and a little help for the offence in 47 TE (Hernandez), 53 OL (Asomoah) and 117 RB Tate from Auburn.
In 2011 you keep that Oakland pick and pray for WR (Julio Jones)......

 

[patsinthesnow]

Reading through on the Garcon and Collie arguments its simple, they're #3 receivers and play like them.

Aiken would be a #5 receiver on most NFL teams.
Stanback would be a PS receiver or a ST on most NFL teams.
Slater, lol seeing him at WR in the baltimore game.

I can call Edelman a true #3 receiver, he has talent. Moss, Welker, Edelman would have been fine for 2010, o wait.... :bricks:

So yeah, the pats need to draft a true #3 in the second round.

 

[woolster22]

My thoughts are you need to re-sign Wilfork, Mankins, Bodden and Faulk. The 2010 draft fills a couple defencive holes like 22 OLB (Kindle), 44 ILB (Spikes) and a little help for the offence in 47 TE (Hernandez), 53 OL (Asomoah) and 117 RB Tate from Auburn.
In 2011 you keep that Oakland pick and pray for WR (Julio Jones)......

I like Tate, not so sure about Kindle or spikes, but i like the positions your looking at. Would Rather go WR/Another front 7 pick rather than TE.

 

[Julius Peppers]

You can trade a 1st or high second for me now.

 

[DaBruinz]

I know quite a bit about knee injuries, actually. If "your theory" is what was followed, people on the medical staff would lose their jobs for incompetence.

*LOL* That tells me, right there, that you don't know nearly as much as you claim.

 

[DaBruinz]

Easy there Mr. Pit Bull!

OK, the answer is a resounding NO, Cody cannot play 3-4. I was surprised the question was asked. And yes, I realize 3-4 and 4-3 DE are different.

Mayo may be done. That's what they get for rushing him back from a knee injury.

Listen, SFBs, I hadn't heard that Cody was up to 370 when I originally posted. So I had no idea whether or not he could play DE in the 3-4. I was trying to picture Cody outside of Wilfork. However, others have mentioned in other threads of Wilfork being on the outside of Cody. Which would work as well.

Now, before you go replying again, how about you make sure you put in full sentences. Cody can play the 3-4. At NT. Not at DE.

 

[Patspsycho]

You can trade a 1st or high second for me now.

I'll trade an 8th round pick plus some beachfront property in Arizona for you.

 

[DaBruinz]

I'll trade an 8th round pick plus some beachfront property in Arizona for you.

And I'll sell him that bridge that goes over that beach front property...