Rebuilding: Where do we start

[Rob0729]

Re: Rebuilding where do we start

One of the concessions the NFLPA will almost certainly have to make to get a new CBA signed is that this year's FA will proceed as it is currently slated to do. There is no way 24 owners will accept 200+ FAs suddenly hitting the market like that.

I will agree that AFTER the RFA and franchise tender periods are over, if a new deal is struck, the NFLPA would have to give that concession. But I think if a deal was struck tomorrow or next week, I doubt the NFLPA would give that concession. Hence why the Pats and other teams are slow to resign their free agents.

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: Rebuilding where do we start

I would think that the corners for the patriots (presuming that we re-sign Bodden) are as good as any set in the playoffs).

Playoff teams with better corners:

Colts
Jets
Vikings
Bengals
Chargers
Cowboys
Eagles
Packers
Cardinals

That would put the Patriots at the bottom along with the Ravens and Saints.

 

[The Dynasty]

Re: Rebuilding where do we start

Playoff teams with better corners:

Colts
Jets
Vikings
Bengals
Chargers
Cowboys
Eagles
Packers
Cardinals

That would put the Patriots at the bottom along with the Ravens and Saints.

And yet the Ravens beat us and the Saints are in the Super Bowl...

Our corners are pretty decent, decent enough to not really be a major concern. It isnt like the corner position is the main reason we didnt advance very far this season.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

Re: Rebuilding where do we start

I will agree that AFTER the RFA and franchise tender periods are over, if a new deal is struck, the NFLPA would have to give that concession. But I think if a deal was struck tomorrow or next week, I doubt the NFLPA would give that concession. Hence why the Pats and other teams are slow to resign their free agents.

The NFLPA is far more desperate to get a new deal done than the owners; talk of giving up on this issue goes back to November:

Rumors fly of possible NFLPA concessions | ProFootballTalk.com

 

[wilfork is beastin']

I'll take the Patriots' corners over the Cardinals' and Chargers' any day. Especially the Chargers.

 

[mgteich]

Re: Rebuilding where do we start

There are folks on this board who fault every position on the team and coaching for our failure in the 2009 season.

The Wrath of God (Deus Irae) chooses to believe that our corners of Bodden, Springs and Butler were a primary problem.

And yet the Ravens beat us and the Saints are in the Super Bowl...

Our corners are pretty decent, decent enough to not really be a major concern. It isnt like the corner position is the main reason we didnt advance very far this season.

 

[mayoclinic]

Re: Rebuilding where do we start

There are folks on this board who fault every position on the team and coaching for our failure in the 2009 season.

The Wrath of God (Deus Irae) chooses to believe that our corners of Bodden, Springs and Butler were a primary problem.

There are others who believe that the secondary was the strongest part of our defense in 2009, and that if we re-sign Bodden and address the lack of pressure from our front 7 we will be just fine.

Manning sure made that Jets secondary look like crap yesterday.

 

[RayClay]

I think signing Bodden and the natural progression of Butler could give us the best two starters in decades.

Hard to absorb the loss of future Hall of Famer Ellis Hobbs, but we'll just have to suck it up.

 

[Rob0729]

Re: Rebuilding where do we start

The NFLPA is far more desperate to get a new deal done than the owners; talk of giving up on this issue goes back to November:

Rumors fly of possible NFLPA concessions | ProFootballTalk.com

I understand that, but it doesn't mean that they will cave on the RFA issue if a deal is done in the next few weeks. They might, but they might not. The Pats aren't going to take that chance though. They are waiting until the last possible minute to make moves to retain free agents. Bodden actually said as much when he said the Pats told him that they would be making offers to players they want to retain in early February.

If you listen to Florio, Moss was cut without ever playing a game for the Pats. Florio's sources are not 100%. He could be right here or he could be dead wrong. I still think the NFLPA will have problems getting the votes to ratify a deal with a six year RFA even just for this year. There are a lot of big to decent size name free agents (Mankins, Elvis Dumerville, Merriman, Leon Washington, Braylon Edwards, Brandon Marshall, Gostkowski, Vincent Jackson, Miles Austin, Owen Daniels, Tony Scheffler, Ronnie Brown, Darren Sproles, Johnny Jolly, Barrett Ruud, DeMeco Ryans, Kirk Morrison, D’Qwell Jackson, Richard Marshall, Nick Collins, and Antoine Bethea to name a few) who are scheduled to be UFAs with a cap and RFAs without a cap. Leadership is going to have a hard time convincing them that it is in their best interest to settle on an one year $2-3 million contract and hope to get a long term deal done with the leverage taken away from them or wait until next year rather than getting a long term deal with a signing bonus up to seven figures right now.

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: Rebuilding where do we start

There are folks on this board who fault every position on the team and coaching for our failure in the 2009 season.

The Wrath of God (Deus Irae) chooses to believe that our corners of Bodden, Springs and Butler were a primary problem.

I put the "blame", defensively, on the linebackers more than any other position. They were, by far, the weakest unit this season, in my opinion. You certainly know this, since you and I have discussed my position that the team should be targeting 2 OLB and 1 ILB positions as areas needing new starters. Making a misleading post and putting my name in it does nothing to enhance your argument.

Now, if you wish to claim that there's a particular area of the team that didn't have any issues, I'd love to hear it.

QB?
RB?
TE?
WR?
OL?
DL?
LB?
DB?
ST?
Coaching?
Front office?

 

[Jimke]

Re: Rebuilding where do we start

Leigh Bodden, Darius Butler, Shawn Springs, Jonathan Wilhite, Terrence Wheatley.


Something is telling me the Patriots are not going for a CB unless they can't resign Bodden.

Bodden is a reasonably good cornerback, Butler a good prospect, but
Wheatley and Wilhite are below average. Springs was decent late in
the year but I question why he was inactive several weeks. Arrington
is an unknown quantity.

 

[RayClay]

Re: Rebuilding where do we start

I put the "blame", defensively, on the linebackers more than any other position. They were, by far, the weakest unit this season, in my opinion. You certainly know this, since you and I have discussed my position that the team should be targeting 2 OLB and 1 ILB positions as areas needing new starters. Making a misleading post and putting my name in it does nothing to enhance your argument.

Now, if you wish to claim that there's a particular area of the team that didn't have any issues, I'd love to hear it.

QB?
RB?
TE?
WR?
OL?
DL?
LB?
DB?
ST?
Coaching?
Front office?

Linebackers huh? Why didn't i think of that?

 

[DaBruinz]

We have a QB that can take us quite far... but in my opinon we need to:
Offense
1) protect the QB, Brady is amazing with time.
Guard play and ROT was horrible this year
2) WR : It bgeins with Moss and ends with Welker
Aiken, Edelman and Tate may be helpful but not scaring anyone....
With Welker's injury this becomes a desperate need
Defense
1) Find a leader!
2) Get more talent on the DL, if we stay with the 3-4, we need more quality depth. (sign Wilfork, move Brace to DE) and find quality depth.
3) LB core is sub par, Mayo is a budding star (so was Vincent Brown), get him some help inside and move Guyton to OLB where he belongs.
4) Pass rush is paramount, find one! Blitz or find natural pass rushers that can play this D!
5) CB : 3 quality CBs are nessesary these days, sign bodden is a must, ( no clue what to do with springs) and draft a 2 players with size that can play middle rounds.

All in all we are falling behind the pack, Pats need to adapt to the new NFL and BB needs to adjust. Pats have never really had an identity, they are an ameboa for every situation. Problem is they just dont have the talent or the supporting cast to be that flexible. The next 2 drafts will really determine the future of this team for the next 10 years.

Draft needs:
1) OL
2) DL
3) WR
4) OLB
5) ILB
6) QB

We have so many picks in a strong draft perhaps we should use them like other teams instead of trading for the future.

IMO we have missed too many play makers at the LB position, due to stuborness at BB's level. Look at game changes such as Dansby and Mathews among others which we have passed on.

This seems to be a rehash of the the last few weeks. It seems that each week someone throws up a "ReBuilding" thread.. There seems to be no new information in what you posted..

1) Center - I don't know what the deal was with Koppen, but he missed quite a few blocking assignments this year. I don't know if it's the blocking scheme or if he was fooled by the defensive call. This culminated in the Wild Card game where Koppen turned slightly left to block the NT with Mankins and Ray Lewis blew by him to sack Brady. The problem is that the draft and free agency are both very weak here.

2) RG - Neal is a UFA and Talking retirement. I'm not surprised at this at all with the shoulder injuries he's been dealing with for the past decade. We could see Matt Light move inside to LG with Mankins moving to RG if Vollmer takes over at LT.

3) RT - I think that we'll see another RT brought in or Vollmer will be there.

4) WR - Edelman showed a LOT during the Wild Card Game. In fact, I'd say he showed that he hasn't reached his potential and that he could be the 3rd receiver we've been looking for to compliment Moss and Welker. Then you have Tate, whose season was shut down to due injury. It's unknown to us fans what the injury actually was.. The Pats could use some camp fodder and I wouldn't be surprised to see Terrence Nunn back in camp as well.

Matthews was NOT a game changer. You clearly didn't watch him play if you think he was so for the Packers.

Dansby is a game changer. He should be available unless the Cardinals put the transition tag on him..

ILB/OLB - The Pats took a hit when McKenzie went down in Rookie Workouts. Crable going to the IR with an unknown leg injury didn't help matters either.

Claiming that BB is stubborn regarding LBers is foolishness. He's drafted at least one LB in each of the last 4 drafts and he tried to add Stewart Bradley in 2007, but to no avail.

The scheme he's using brought 3 SBs to the Pats and taken them to a 4th. In a copycat league that changes so dramatically each year, That kind of success is extremely hard to question.

 

[Seacoast Fan]

I find it interesting very few people here (so far as I can tell from the posts) think that RB is a need. In my opinion, we need a true RB far more than another receiver. Maroney just isn't the answer, and as for Morris and Taylor, we need guys who can stay on the field.

 

[DaBruinz]

Re: Rebuilding where do we start

I think the Patriots need to select smarter in the Draft.

Look at the Colts (2009 AFC winners) : Garson, Addai, Sanders, Gonzalez...

I find it amazing that people keep talking about the Colts and what they don't realize is how many players the Colts let walk away after their rookie contracts.

Addai - Had spent 5 years in college prior to being drafted. So he was more polished than most. However, he had 2 straight down years after his rookie season and prior to this one..

Sanders - 1st round pick.
Gonzalez - 1st round pick.

Garcon - A 2nd year 6th round pick who worked his way to the 4th WR on that team and went to 3rd because of the injury to Gonzalez.

How many duds did we have last year? Look at how many picks we got.

ALL of the Pats 2009 Picks this year were on the roster in some way, shape or form. 8 were on the main roster. 2 were on IR and 2 were on the practice squad.

Of the 2008 Picks, only O'Connell and Ruud have been cut. Things look bad for Wheatley and Crable, but who knows what will happen with them. Mayo has been excellent and Wilhite, though he's been the whipping boy on here, hasn't been that bad..

It's not the # of picks, but, what players you are targeting for.

I dont buy the idea "best available player at that time"...

Look at the picks of 2009. Most of the rookies are injured, or no-impact or released.

So far, biggest rookie duds are: Brace & Crable.

Got lucky with Vollmer.

What the hell are you smoking regarding the 2009 draft? Did you ever stop to think that it's YOUR expectations that are the problem and NOT the Pats drafting. Hell, you don't even know what year picks were taken . Crable was a 2008 draft pick. Not a 2009.

The 2009 draft was extremely good for the Pats. Chung, Butler, Vollmer, and Edelman all stepped up and provided quality depth for the team. Pryor was definitely an unexpected bonus. Jake Ingram seems to be Lonnie Paxton Redux as the Long Snapper.

Brace can hardly be considered a DUD when you look at the fact that the Pats played the 4-3 a majority of the snaps this year. Brace is strictly a 3-4 NT for the NFL. When Brace was called upon to fill in for Wilfork, he was double and sometimes triple teamed.

Hell, any SENSIBLE person knows you can't judge a draft after its first year.

Though Bussey and Richard were released, they were re-signed to the Practice Squad.

 

[DaBruinz]

I find it interesting very few people here (so far as I can tell from the posts) think that RB is a need. In my opinion, we need a true RB far more than another receiver. Maroney just isn't the answer, and as for Morris and Taylor, we need guys who can stay on the field.

Maroney can run the ball when there is consistent run blocking by the O-line. The problem is that the O-line, this year, was far from consistent in the run-blocking. Could the Pats use another RB? Sure. Because Faulk is a UFA and, as you mentioned, Morris and Taylor can't seem to stay healthy.

The problem is that there are more pressing needs on the O-line and D-line (Defensive End and Re-signing Wilfork) than at RB.

 

[Rob0729]

Re: Rebuilding where do we start

I think the Patriots need to select smarter in the Draft.

Look at the Colts (2009 AFC winners) : Garson, Addai, Sanders, Gonzalez...

Both Sanders and Gonzalez were not playing this year because of injuries. Sanders may be an All Pro when he has been on the field, but he has missed more games due to injury in his career than he played (he has only played 47 games out of 96 possible games in his career). Gonzalez played one game this year and had no receptions. Sanders played two games this year and had 3 tackles and 1 INT.

Addai despite having a good game yesterday, has been a worse running back since he played the Pats in November of 2007 than Laurence Maroney. The Colts had the worst running game in the league this year. The Colts at this point have spent two first round draft picks on RBs in recent years to get the worst running game in the league. Why is that better drafting than the Pats at least at that position.

Garcon and Collie have been great this year, but would they be great on another team not QBed by Peyton Manning? Same for Gonzalez?

 

[RxJock1120]

Let me sum up our entire rebuilding process: ROLANDO MCCLAIN!!! Top 5 talent who will probably end up going around #10 in the draft. He is big(6'3 258 lbs), he is fast(4.68 in the forty), he is a leader, and was regarded as the smartest LB in college last year. And oh yeah he played in a Nick Saban defense the last 2 years. A better fit at inside LB is not going to come around for another 10 years. We have more than enough amunition to move up 12 spots in the draft. We have enough picks to get value later in the draft. Financially, #10 pick usually does not command outrageous money, unless it is a QB. So our rebuilding has to center around this guy. That is not to say that he will be the cure all, but franchise type middle LB, that will fit our system, do not come around very often and if we pass again got "value" player later on, we will continue to be a "value" team- 10 or 11 wins with a playoff birth that's is ended no later than the 2nd round. Sometimes you have to swing for the fences if you want to hit a homerun!!!

 

[mayoclinic]

This seems to be a rehash of the the last few weeks. It seems that each week someone throws up a "ReBuilding" thread.. There seems to be no new information in what you posted..

1) Center - I don't know what the deal was with Koppen, but he missed quite a few blocking assignments this year. I don't know if it's the blocking scheme or if he was fooled by the defensive call. This culminated in the Wild Card game where Koppen turned slightly left to block the NT with Mankins and Ray Lewis blew by him to sack Brady. The problem is that the draft and free agency are both very weak here.

2) RG - Neal is a UFA and Talking retirement. I'm not surprised at this at all with the shoulder injuries he's been dealing with for the past decade. We could see Matt Light move inside to LG with Mankins moving to RG if Vollmer takes over at LT.

3) RT - I think that we'll see another RT brought in or Vollmer will be there.

4) WR - Edelman showed a LOT during the Wild Card Game. In fact, I'd say he showed that he hasn't reached his potential and that he could be the 3rd receiver we've been looking for to compliment Moss and Welker. Then you have Tate, whose season was shut down to due injury. It's unknown to us fans what the injury actually was.. The Pats could use some camp fodder and I wouldn't be surprised to see Terrence Nunn back in camp as well.

Matthews was NOT a game changer. You clearly didn't watch him play if you think he was so for the Packers.

Dansby is a game changer. He should be available unless the Cardinals put the transition tag on him..

ILB/OLB - The Pats took a hit when McKenzie went down in Rookie Workouts. Crable going to the IR with an unknown leg injury didn't help matters either.

Claiming that BB is stubborn regarding LBers is foolishness. He's drafted at least one LB in each of the last 4 drafts and he tried to add Stewart Bradley in 2007, but to no avail.

The scheme he's using brought 3 SBs to the Pats and taken them to a 4th. In a copycat league that changes so dramatically each year, That kind of success is extremely hard to question.

Yes, it's a rehash. There will be another one next week, and another the week after that, and another ...

Losing out on Stewart Bradley was one of the biggest misses that I can recall. Bradley and Mayo would have given us an incredibly solid core up the middle. Since he's coming off of an injury, do you think there is any possible way that Philly might be induced to trade for him? I doubt it, but he'd certainly come cheaper than Dansby, and IMHO would be just as good for us at SILB. Probably just a pipe dream.

 

[hawk]

The Patriots have a lot of needs. A pass rush will make their defensive backs a lot better. Resign Wilfork. Stay away from Peppers, he's too old (30), too expensive, and too inconsistent. Draft some line backers (if 3-4), or a DE (if 4-3). Crable has been on IR both years as a Patriot; I wouldn't count on him. Pass on Burgess and, if possible, trade Thomas. We have too many smurfs at cornerback. Resign Bodden and draft a big corner. We need two more receivers in addition to Moss and Edleman. Don't count on Welker at all for 2010. Tate has injured the same knee twice in two years; I wouldn't count on him either. We need a big, tough running back who can block. Corey Dillon was a devastating blocker and I guarantee he wouldn't have allowed Ray Lewis to get to Brady. Gerhardt may be available in a reasonable round. Finally, draft another Volmer for the O-Line