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Decade of players "drafted" under BB and Pioli


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Where do the tags on threads come from?

"op is a homo"

Priceless!
 
1) Any evaluatioin should have metrics.
2) Criticism should compare evaluations of the pats with those of other teams.
3) If draft evaluation is the goal, then all rounds should be included. If the rating of rookie acquistions is the goal, then UDFA's shoulds also be included. If rating player acquistiions is the goal, then all acquisitions should be measured.
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Evaluations and articles regarding the best and worst drafting team is done before every draft. Expect lots of articles in the month before the draft. Curiously the guesses of most everyone is that the patriots are among the top 5 drafting teams over the past 5 and 10 years. Obviously, the patriots also do very well with UDFA's. It should be noted that the 2009 draft (which it is way too early to evaluate) were B+ to A- right after the draft, and have moved up a notch since then.

I sort of think its a C+ too. But to be fair you would have to compare these results to those of the other teams. I am guessing the Pats would rank in the lower middle, but I really don't know.
 
Here it goes for the Decade...looking at Rds 1-3 primarily as these are typically considered prospects that should make the team and be strong contributors as the roster churns annually.

32 total selected in rd 1-3
16 on Offense
16 on Defense

excluding 2009 draftees....
MAJOR IMPACT (Seymour, Light, Wilfork, Warren, Mankins) - 5
AVG CONTRIBUTION (Graham, Warren, Branch, Meriweather, Mankins, Hobbs) - 5
BUSTS (Klemm, Redmond, Williams, Davey, Wilson, Johnson, Watson, Hill, Scott, Kaczur, Jackson, Thomas, Wheatley, Crable, O'Connell) - 15

Most alarming is the number of Rd #2 picks and how many turned out to be complete busts....:eek:


2000
2. Adrian Klemm
3. JR Redmond

2001
1. R. Seymour
2. M. Light
3. Brock Williams

2002
1. D. Graham
2. D. Branch
3. R. Davey

2003
1. Ty Warren
2. E. Wilson
2. B. Johnson

2004
1. V. Wilfork
2. B. Watson
2. M. Hill
3. Gus Scott

2005
1. L. Mankins
3. E. Hobbs
3. N. Kaczur

2006
1. L. Maroney
2. C. Jackson
3. D. Thomas

2007
1. B. Merriweather

2008
1. Mayo
2. Wheatley
3. Crable
3. K. O'Connell

2009.
2. Chung
2. Brace
2. Butler
2. Vollmer
3. Tate
3. Mackenzie


Draft Grade for the Decade = C+

If you were going to make such a pathetic "analysis", you should at least have gotten the rounds correct. Cripes, you're pissing and moaning about the draft and you couldn't even get Watson in the correct round.
 
Its not useless.
It is the reason why the JETS are playing in the AFC Championship next week and the PATS are sitting at home drinking beer

They better not be drinking beer, last thing we need is to become slower.
 
Why because it exposes the truth about your hero BB?

BS, facts are facts..............

Why draft a Patrick Chung at the top of Round 2, play him sparingly, then sprinkle him in some more next year and then when he's finally ready to play by year 3.5, we only get 1.5 years of production out of him before he moves on because of BB's idiotic strategy of trading down into the second round and not being able to sign any 2nd round draft pick for more than a 4-year deal? Chung's the projected future right ? Well why not develop him from the outset instead of waiting to see him develop by year 3 or 4. In other words play him like other teams do with players taken that high..........Screw the James Sanders and other BS experiments. Garbage, play the higher upside draft pick and develop him BB. Unreal..........

The Jets trade up for difference makers. Revis, Sanchez (who is going to be really good like it not), Shonn Green (a trade up at the top of R3). BB can shove this trade down strategy up his tail................It's crap !!!!! Isn't it Ron Brace ? Oh Clay Matthews and James Laurinaitus, we are hardly knew yeee........

Couldn't agree more. BB is a mediocre judge of talent. The last few years look like the drafts from his Cleveland days. They keep trading down into a round, the second, that they've have horrible results in.
 
MAJOR IMPACT (Seymour, Light, Wilfork, Warren, Mankins) - 5
AVG CONTRIBUTION (Graham, Warren, Branch, Meriweather, Mankins, Hobbs) - 5
BUSTS (Klemm, Redmond, Williams, Davey, Wilson, Johnson, Watson, Hill, Scott, Kaczur, Jackson, Thomas, Wheatley, Crable, O'Connell) - 15

So Pro Bowlers, including a repeat Pro Bowler, are average, as a Super Bowl MVP who was traded for franchise-taggee kind of value. And starters are busts.

Right ....

By the way, I'm pretty sure Davey was a 4th rounder.
 
Eugene Wilson, Ben Watson and Nick Kaczur as busts? That's just stupid. What a ******ed thread.
 
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Where do the tags on threads come from?

"op is a homo"

Priceless!

Down by the tags there's an "edit tags" link that you can click to add your own. Not sure why, but ripping on dumb threads with them is really fun.
 
I ran a similar analysis two or three years ago, comparing Patriots draft performance to the league. The results then demonstrated that the Patriots performed significantly better than the league in the first round, well below league average in the second, and about average across the bottom.

Anyone that pulls out names like Brady and Givens to prove the Patriots' drafting ability in the later rounds needs to also then dredge up the leagues of players no longer around. Brady was obviously influenced by luck - if the Patriots had any idea of his potential, they would have drafted him in the first. Givens, as many recall, was a pick that the Patriots passed on a number of times before actually making the call.

And I'm surprised at all the negative feedback regarding the classification of Marquise Hill. Did he die 'trying to save the life of another' or out jet-skiing with another woman? And how does that impact his on-the-field results? Marquise Hill was a second round pick. In three seasons he had two total tackles and one assist. Seymour missed five games during that period - there were opportunities. Before passing away, the feeling on this board was that he would be released in training camp cuts. I hope this doesn't devolve into a who-can-type-loudest debate on Hill's performance, but it is indicative of some of the response.

Yes, this analysis is much more insightful when compared to league performance.

Based on comparing recent results to previous analysis, I'd guess that the Patriots are still probably better in the first than league average. No clear busts. Pats picks in the first are generally fairly safe. I would guess still worse than league average in the second. And probably about average after that.

However, the league has clear drop-offs in performance round by round. First round picks have a much higher rate of success than second round picks, and so forth.

If your strategy is to trade down year after year, you would need to perform quite a bit better than league average to be successful with that approach.

Compare that approach to the Jets' results, moving up to target players like Revis and Sanchez.
 
My concern is the staff has been either UNWILLING or UNSUCCESSFUL at developement at certain positions.
RB-Decade of zero developement accentuated by premium draft choice bust
WR-Post Branch and Givens era (AKA..no SB era), limited attempts met with failure
DB-Post Assante era...the Jackson Pollack era...throw alot of paint at the canvas and see a splattered mess. Hobbs stuck to the canvas, but not to WRs. Wilhite has similar traits. Point being the startings corners in the playoff game were FAs.
LBs. BB started to toss back end picks at the position, few lasted through camp. First rounders are not considered developement projects.
Safety. Successful
DL. Beyond the 3 1sts, Pats have been successful filling out roster
OL. Same as DL, many hits with a nice bullpen
QB. Can't complain, but a couple years of only 2 QBs on roster means their misses have left them thin.
 
:blahblah:


:rolleyes2:

Welcome to my Ignore List. If I have to read any more from these three, I will have to
Suicide.gif


I hope you all follow your buddy KlineFan out the BANNED door.
 
Welcome to my Ignore List. If I have to read any more from these three, I will have to
Suicide.gif


I hope you all follow your buddy KlineFan out the BANNED door.

Klinefan got banned? Wow. He was over the top but I didn't think his commentary was ban-able. I must have missed something I guess.
 
Klinefan got banned? Wow. He was over the top but I didn't think his commentary was ban-able. I must have missed something I guess.

His last few posts were some real gems. You can still see his posts if you care to.
 
I think it's inarguable that our drafts haven't been very good. Especially as of late. That's the big reason we're in this mess. We wasted a huge amount of money trying to get a LB (Thomas) instead of developing one.

Those busts hurt bad.

I don't think it's overly negative to point it out and it's pedantic to demand a scholarly examination of the drafting of all 31 other teams.

Maybe they need to take drafting away from BB somewhat. Hire a personnel guru from another team (which has had success) to at least give input into the situation.

I don't get how Crable gets drafted high and doesn't see the field. Then Brace is drafted high and some are already saying he's a monumental bust. Is it attitude? Athletic ability? Why bother drafting any OLB conversion high if crable can't see the field, he was stellar in college.
 
1) Any evaluatioin should have metrics.
2) Criticism should compare evaluations of the pats with those of other teams.
3) If draft evaluation is the goal, then all rounds should be included. If the rating of rookie acquistions is the goal, then UDFA's shoulds also be included. If rating player acquistiions is the goal, then all acquisitions should be measured.
=======================================
Evaluations and articles regarding the best and worst drafting team is done before every draft. Expect lots of articles in the month before the draft. Curiously the guesses of most everyone is that the patriots are among the top 5 drafting teams over the past 5 and 10 years. Obviously, the patriots also do very well with UDFA's. It should be noted that the 2009 draft (which it is way too early to evaluate) were B+ to A- right after the draft, and have moved up a notch since then.

Interesting. Do you have a link to any of those articles that show the Pats are "among the top 5 drafting teams over the past 5 and 10 years"? I would love to see the work of someone that has made a thorough study of this in a league-wide context.
 
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My concern is the staff has been either UNWILLING or UNSUCCESSFUL at developement at certain positions.
RB-Decade of zero developement accentuated by premium draft choice bust
WR-Post Branch and Givens era (AKA..no SB era), limited attempts met with failure
DB-Post Assante era...the Jackson Pollack era...throw alot of paint at the canvas and see a splattered mess. Hobbs stuck to the canvas, but not to WRs. Wilhite has similar traits. Point being the startings corners in the playoff game were FAs.
LBs. BB started to toss back end picks at the position, few lasted through camp. First rounders are not considered developement projects.
Safety. Successful
DL. Beyond the 3 1sts, Pats have been successful filling out roster
OL. Same as DL, many hits with a nice bullpen
QB. Can't complain, but a couple years of only 2 QBs on roster means their misses have left them thin.

So from what I can tell, you combine this with the other post saying you can't take credit for later rounds because of luck-- and here, you can't count early-round successes because they're not development projects -- and we conclude the Pats are unable or unwilling to develop talent.

So when other teams hit in the later rounds, it is because they know how to develop talent. When the Pats hit in the later rounds, it is because they got lucky.

Good to know the rules of engagement :rolleyes:

I'm only a fan of the Pats' drafts when I compare them to the league at large; no doubt, one can always improve. I do doubt, however, that the real brain trust is toiling in obscurity on a bulletin board while a bunch of morons in Foxborough bumbles around in highly sought-after, highly paid team scouting staff, coaching, and personnel jobs.

One of my favorite Draftnik chestnuts for the last few years has been how every damn "I know better" draftnik alive would bleat like sheep "We need a tall corner."

It should be noted that said bleating draftniks always complained about others here "drinking too much kool-aid" blah blah blah. But it's been like a niche in an ecological system: Some goober has always had to occupy the "we need a tall corner" niche. Same with "we need a tall receiver" for a few years... but that's another story.

Oh how terrible every corner ever drafted was, if he was under 6'!!!

And I am sure they were bleating this repeatedly as the Jets drafted Darryl Revis... I am sure we had Revis-backers here, and I am sure there were draftniks pro and con, some shouting down Revis-backers because he's 5'11. And I am sure some similar savants existed in Jetsland.

Similarly the Pats have hit with 1st rounders. I am sure there were those complaining when we picked up Wilfork, Warren, or Seymour, that it was not important, or we would never really get over the loss of Mt. Ted Washington, or whatever, and besides THIS guy wasn't the way to do it.

I know we have 5 more months to argue about this sort of thing, but christ on a crutch. You have a team that's done comparatively well, in an exercise that any NFL personnel man will tell you is half luck and half skill. It is NOT the premiere franchise in the NFL in said endeavor.

And now we have psuedoscientific "analysis" telling us that we refuse to develop players, with the caveat that any player the Pats could be said to develop were actually luck choices.

Come on people. This is way too transparent a methodology, designed from the get-go to get a rock-solid footing on "No no I really do know better!" territory.

My money is still on "not quite time for that, Junior."

For any of you who were actually following this stuff "a few years ago," think about what you may have been bleating back then. "Oh why can't we at least take a look at Tim Couch or Akili Smith???" Of course, Ricky Williams was in that draft too. But back then all the smart money said with all those can't-miss, blue-chip QBs, we finally had the "next wave" to help us get over the Marino/Montana/Kosar/whoever else draft. You know, that big ol QB draft everybody always said we'd never repeat.

Welp, I think it was Culpeper, Couch, Cade McNown (!!!), Akili Smith, and maybe McNabb in that draft. Not a Marino or a Montana in the bunch. McNabb was the only lasting success there, with an arguable case for a half-career to be made for Culpepper, as long as Moss was around (local standards would call them both busts.)

Long story short: it's half-skill and half-luck, and that even pertains to #1 picks. The new wrinkle -- the Pats refuse to develop young talent except that young talent that they do develop, because all of those are luck picks -- reeks of circular logic.

We continue to want Maroney to prove himself a bust, but just when we think we've got him categorized, he starts shining. We want to declare a DROY from a year ago a "bust".

Hysteria, gentlemen, not science, not logic, hysteria.

But we're fans, and that's short for "fanatics." We're supposed to come up with our dumb amateur beliefs... and if our team really does suck, we actually don't sound like idiots when we express them.

It's definitely an honorable endeavor to wish we were better at something we're good at, and wish we were the best at the league at every aspect of the game. I just have very little faith in the annual influx of newbies who know so much about the downside of Pats drafts of the past.

Everybody remembers that he was SO hopeful the Pats got Revis (for example.) Nobody remembers hoping and praying we picked up Roy Williams - not that he's the worst player that ever came along, but he's not a guy with the ex-post-facto "it" factor you need to make these dumb arguments.

PFnV
 
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a. Rohan Davey was a fourth round pick
b. Kaczur is absolutely not a bust
c. Eugene Wilson, Ben Watson wouldn't fall into the bust category
d. Ben Watson was a first round pick
e. If you include fourth rounders in your grade, here's a few: Greg Robinson-Randall, Kenyatta Jones, JARVIS GREEN, Dan Klecko, ASANTE SAMUEL, James Sanders, STEPHEN GOSTKOWSKI, and Jonathan Wilhite
f. If you include fifth round picks, you have Dan Koppen and Ryan O'Callaghan
g. Sixth rounders:TOM BRADY and Le Kevin Smith
h. Seventh: Patrick Pass, DAVID GIVENS, Tully Banta-Cain, MATT CASSEL, and Julian Edelman
i. Undrafted: Randall Gay, Mike Wright, Stephen Neal, Pierre Woods, BenJarvus Green-Ellis, and many others

First, looking at the whole decade of drafts is useless.
Second, looking at just the first three rounds doesn't do what Belichick has done justice. There are so many more factors, as in rounds 4-7, and trades and things like that. Drafts are more than just the players taken.
 
I ran a similar analysis two or three years ago, comparing Patriots draft performance to the league. The results then demonstrated that the Patriots performed significantly better than the league in the first round, well below league average in the second, and about average across the bottom.

Anyone that pulls out names like Brady and Givens to prove the Patriots' drafting ability in the later rounds needs to also then dredge up the leagues of players no longer around. Brady was obviously influenced by luck - if the Patriots had any idea of his potential, they would have drafted him in the first. Givens, as many recall, was a pick that the Patriots passed on a number of times before actually making the call.

And I'm surprised at all the negative feedback regarding the classification of Marquise Hill. Did he die 'trying to save the life of another' or out jet-skiing with another woman? And how does that impact his on-the-field results? Marquise Hill was a second round pick. In three seasons he had two total tackles and one assist. Seymour missed five games during that period - there were opportunities. Before passing away, the feeling on this board was that he would be released in training camp cuts. I hope this doesn't devolve into a who-can-type-loudest debate on Hill's performance, but it is indicative of some of the response.

Yes, this analysis is much more insightful when compared to league performance.

Based on comparing recent results to previous analysis, I'd guess that the Patriots are still probably better in the first than league average. No clear busts. Pats picks in the first are generally fairly safe. I would guess still worse than league average in the second. And probably about average after that.

However, the league has clear drop-offs in performance round by round. First round picks have a much higher rate of success than second round picks, and so forth.

If your strategy is to trade down year after year, you would need to perform quite a bit better than league average to be successful with that approach.

Compare that approach to the Jets' results, moving up to target players like Revis and Sanchez.

No JETS comparison would be complete if it omits the recent #6 pick bust they are on the hook for multi millions on or fails to acknowledge that the Sanchez pick remains TBD since at the moment his selection has proven to be little more than potentially manageable...in the presence of an expensive and largely FA constructed OL and similarly constructed defense, both of which may be difficult to maintain over the next couple of seasons...

The Jets will be picking in our old territory this season, and they only have 2 picks in the top 150 or so picks...28 and 60. They traded away a lot of picks to create a .500 team that only got into the playoffs off tie breakers because two divisions winners laid down, and had the good fortune to face two media overhyped fraud teams in the playoffs as a result. Because of the limitations imposed on FA due to an expiring CBA, this could all work out to be a best case scenario from a 2010 and beyond standpoint as far as the rest of the division is concerned...
 
I wouldn't call Ben Watson, Eugene Wilson or Nick Kaczur busts, they all started for multiple years.

Do this for any team and you will get the same result, the draft is a crapshoot.
 
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