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One of the most explosive teams of all time?

They averaged 26.8 Pts/G and 329.8 Yds/G.

When teams like (off the top of my head) the 98 Broncos (31.3, 380.8), 94 49ers (31.6, 378.8), 99 Rams (32.9, 400.8), 51 Rams (32.7, 450.8) are much more explosive and also have won it all.

And those are just the ones off the top of my head, there are certainly other teams that were much more exploive than the 90 Bills and have also won it all.

You know those #s off the top of your head?
 
The following three factors were critical in 2007 and in this season:
1) general health (fewer injuries and not having 1/3 the team having the flu)
2) production from the seconday
3) production from the linebackers

I believe that the offense is in great shape with the additions of Taylor, Baker, Galloway and Lewis. Obviously, the critical plus is a returning healthy Brady (although I would note that the offense was pretty good last year). A healthy Maroney might also help. I see no offense problems to focus on. I see no reason to try to change the most successful offense ever into a different kind of offense. I do overstate my position just a bit. I too would prefer us to have a fullback on the squad. I was shocked when Evans wasn't re-signed and no replacment brought in.

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So, we need to focus on the defense because it is within the defense that we could fail to achieve success. When I consider our team, I consider 10 units: QB, RB's, receivers, OL, DL, LB, CB, S, specialists and special teams.

We will always have stronger and weaker units. I think that the weakest two units (and the two biggest question marks) are the linebackers and the secondary. The FO has done a lot to improve these units. As always some units are in transition. These are the two for now.

I got it now; thanks. I agree with all 3; I would just add a 4th factor.
 
Let's cut to the chase. You believe that our critical need compared to the 2006, 2007 and 2008 season is to improve our running game. I believe that the our critical need compared to 2006, 2007 and 2008 is to improve our corners and linebackers.
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Also, let's be clear about the 2008 season. The game plans were developed because we had Cassel at quarterback. If you want the same of kind of balanced game with same kind of game management, we have the wrong quarterback. And I know we have the right quarterback. This year, we will run Tom Brady's offense. And just BTW, the DEFENSE plays much better when we are 10-14 points ahead instead of 6.

No, that's not true. You're completely ignoring what I've been saying.

I've NEVER said that improving our defense isn't our #1 priority. I've ALWAYS been defense-first, and I've applauded the fact that we're finally added a long-needed infusion of youth, speed, and (hopefully) talent on defense. I would agree with you that as far as the defense is concerned, the secondary (first) and LB corps (second) appear to be greater areas of need than the defensive line. I'm hopeful that the defense will be improved over the 2005-2008 era and that once it gels we may see something special develop, but it's early days, and things may not come together. In particular, I have argued for a more aggressive and disruptive defense than in the past few years, which I think will be possible with the added speed and depth on defense. While I don't want to see us become Pittsburgh or Baltimore on defense, I think we have gotten a bit too soft defensively. So I hope to see a change not only in terms of speed (coverage ability, pressure) but in terms of attitude.

However, I disagree with those who think that the offense is completely set. Granted, with the return of TB and our potent receiving weapons we should see a return of the passing attack to near-2007 levels of proficiency. But where I differ from some on the board is that I am concerned that that is not entirely a good thing if it means continuing to become more of a finesse team and giving up some on the running game. I think that we need the capability to situationally run the ball in order to keep opposing D's off balance, wear them down, break their spirit, control the clock, give our defense a breather, and generally teach them that we are still the meanest toughest sons of b*tches on the block. I don't see any reason that that cannot be achieved while still being a "pass first" big strike offense. I'm concerned that we've become softer on both offense and defense since the SB years, and I'd like to see a bit of an attitude change on both sides of the ball, without taking away from our existing strengths.

As far as TB being the "wrong" QB for a balanced game plan, that's how he made his reputation. Peyton was the guy who put up the big numbers and set records, but TB was the money QB who managed the game, didn't necessarily put up as big numbers, but was money when it counted and always came through with the big play - and who won the SBs. Up to the AFCCG in 2006 (including all the SB years) that was their respective roles. It was only after we lost a shootout in the AFCCG - one in which our defense ended up exhausted and unable to keep up at the end - that we went on a shopping spree to get TB some very nice toys so that the offense went trigger happy. I'd personally be very content with the offense staying more balanced as it was in 2008, but with Brady at the helm instead of Cassel. Saying that Brady is the wrong QB for that kind of an approach is just asinine.

Sure, the defense plays better when its up 10-14 points. Any defense does. Being up 20-30 helps even more. But we won't always be up 10-14 (or more) points. I'm fine with having some 50-7 romps during the regular season when we don't have to run the ball and the defense gets a freebie. But when the games get close down the stretch and into the post-season, when the bitter cold and nasty weather conditions hit along with better defenses, I'd like us to be able to run the ball a little.

Anway, it's obvious by now (actually, it was obvious a long time ago) that we're not going to agree. So go ahead and stick your head in the sand in blissful ignorance that Brady-to-Moss and Welker will cure all. Time will tell whether that's enough to be the exception to history, or whether history repeats itself. I'd rather have a running game to complement our passing game (along with, not instead of, the defensive improvements) and not take any chances.
 
After reading this post i just wanted to reply to a few things. 1st Mayoclinic is some kind of Guru. He said the same thing i've been thinking for years. On to the comparison of our pass happy 2007 team to the hard running 2004 team. The 2007 team was pretty balanced until Sammy Morris went down against the Cowboys. Someone mentioned that the 2007 team was boring but i have to disagree. The level of our competion that year was ridiculous, and for us to rip them apart and go undefeated was amazing. We played the steelers, colts, ravens, chargers, cowboys, eagles, giants, and the browns. That is a list of ridiculous teams to have to play in one season. Most of those teams had ridiculous defenses and they couldn't stop us. In my eyes, the 2007 season would have been perfect if we had played the packers in the SB instead of the Giants. Then we would have basically played all the top teams that year. But even if we had won it all in 2007 it would come in second compared to the 2004 season. I'll explain why.

The 2004 team was extremely fun to watch. Brady seemed to drastically improve this season in my eyes. Brady was bigger and noticabley stronger. At one point Brady was throwing the ball so hard that many recievers had the ball bounce off of them. Dillon was the man. You never knew when he was going to break a long run but he seemed to do it at some point every game. I enjoy long runs more than long completions. And the main reason why this was my favorite season was that it felt like we were overlooked by the league. Though we eventually went 14-2, the Steelers(15-1) and rookie Big Ben beat the sh!t out of us and the Colts were breaking all kinds of records and somehow it felt like we were the underdogs. To make it to the superbowl we had to go through both the Colts and the Steelers. In the end, we didn't just beat them, we destroyed them and went on to beat the high powered Eagles.
 
After reading this post i just wanted to reply to a few things. 1st Mayoclinic is some kind of Guru. He said the same thing i've been thinking for years. On to the comparison of our pass happy 2007 team to the hard running 2004 team. The 2007 team was pretty balanced until Sammy Morris went down against the Cowboys. Someone mentioned that the 2007 team was boring but i have to disagree. The level of our competion that year was ridiculous, and for us to rip them apart and go undefeated was amazing. We played the steelers, colts, ravens, chargers, cowboys, eagles, giants, and the browns. That is a list of ridiculous teams to have to play in one season. Most of those teams had ridiculous defenses and they couldn't stop us. In my eyes, the 2007 season would have been perfect if we had played the packers in the SB instead of the Giants. Then we would have basically played all the top teams that year. But even if we had won it all in 2007 it would come in second compared to the 2004 season. I'll explain why.

The 2004 team was extremely fun to watch. Brady seemed to drastically improve this season in my eyes. Brady was bigger and noticabley stronger. At one point Brady was throwing the ball so hard that many recievers had the ball bounce off of them. Dillon was the man. You never knew when he was going to break a long run but he seemed to do it at some point every game. I enjoy long runs more than long completions. And the main reason why this was my favorite season was that it felt like we were overlooked by the league. Though we eventually went 14-2, the Steelers(15-1) and rookie Big Ben beat the sh!t out of us and the Colts were breaking all kinds of records and somehow it felt like we were the underdogs. To make it to the superbowl we had to go through both the Colts and the Steelers. In the end, we didn't just beat them, we destroyed them and went on to beat the high powered Eagles.

That is something that I miss---being the underdogs to a degree.

Surely in 01 v. StLouis, then again in 03 and 04 v.Indy, and maybe even Pgh in 04 too. In 06 we went back to being somewhat counted out, and upset #1 SD, then came crazy close v.Indy again.

Even in 07 with all the pressure every wk towards the end, etc--no one thought it could be done. I think we may have even made a little noise last yr too in the playoffs, I miss being the counted out underdogs. Or at least I miss the fire it lights under the team, to some extent. I realize it sounds somewhat stupid, but it's something that I've thought about recently.

Edit: sorry for going OT, just replying to previous post
 
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I am going to put in my two cents; I absolutely agree that no matter how prolific our offense is, we are not going anywhere if the defense does not pull its weight and exhibit a vast improvement over the past two years.

The downside to the 2007 offensive juggernaut was that it really put the Patriots on the map- the team to hate, and get up for. This was in fact something that I had noticed began after we beat the Colts and became quite obvious with the Ravens game which is when I noticed that every team (especially those not making the playoffs) were getting up to play us like it was their personal superbowl. You all saw how mad and foaming at the mouth the Ravens were when they lost on that famous consecutive 4ths drive.

My point is that if we generate an offensive output similar to 2007, teams are going to get up for us again and every game every week will be a superbowl. This puts undue stress on the offense, but if the defense is stout and demonstrates an ability to clamp down when they have to, this takes a lot of pressure off the offense because if they feel confident with their D, they will not worry so much about blowing a drive or dead-ending, and this leads to less stress, wear-and-tear on the offense, both mentally and physically.

In other words, the workload is evenly distributed. Mayoclinc and Doesntmatter are correct, we were evenly balanced and distributed in 2004, and were very hard to beat. In 2007 we were lopsided.
 
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As good and exciting as the 2007 offense was, opposing teams only had to figure out one way to beat us, which was to contain our passing game. Teams knew coming into the games stopping the run wasn't much of a priority for them. Stop or even contain the Patriots passing game and you have a good chance to win since the defense wasnt that good. Its a hard thing to do stopping the patriots throwing attack, but not impossible, the Giants figured it out and beat us in the SB.
 
As is normal for this time of year people are over-thinking things.

To point the finger at the running game as the reason we haven't won a Superbowl in 4 years is narrow minded.

Alot of things have to go your way to win a Superbowl - look at all the crazy **** that had to fall into place for us to win that very first SB.

The fumble that wasn't.

Vinatieri putting on a cold weather kicking class against Oakland.

Martz having his head up his own ass for most of the Superbowl.

Another last second kick from Vinatieri.

Then all the crazy **** that happened to prevent us winning another in 2007.

Asante dropping a game killing interception.

The helmet catch including Eli's great getaway.

You can't gameplan for every eventuality.

Alot of football fans would sell their grandma for a shot at the title as realistic as ours.

We have an amazing QB and an excellent WR corps - we have a very useful RB corps.

As has been stated before, it has been a lack of health concentrated in the LB and DB corps that have hurt us in the last few years.
 
The Dolts may run the ball some, but they don't run it well, and haven't for awhile. Besides, is it really a good thing to imply equivalence btwn. our offense and theirs?

First, the Colts' offense the haters of the McDaniels' offense of the last few years are comparing to is the one that was balanced of the pre-2006. Yes, the last few years their offense hasn't been balanced because after a fast start Joseph Addai has become a bust.

Second, the Colts' problem lies more on the defensive side of the ball than the offense. I am sure if in the early part of this decade they had a defense like the Pats did, they might have one or two more rings. I wouldn't mind having the Colts' offense as long as we didn't have to have their defense. A high powered offense with no defense is doomed for failure because the high powered offense can't be on every game especially in the playoffs when you face tougher defenses.

I still don't get why people only seem to focus on the offense. You look at the Colts and the Pats post 2004 and most of the real issues are on defense, not offense.
 
As good and exciting as the 2007 offense was, opposing teams only had to figure out one way to beat us, which was to contain our passing game. Teams knew coming into the games stopping the run wasn't much of a priority for them. Stop or even contain the Patriots passing game and you have a good chance to win since the defense wasnt that good. Its a hard thing to do stopping the patriots throwing attack, but not impossible, the Giants figured it out and beat us in the SB.

Boy and look at how many teams were able to stop us. One team, that got every lucky bounce, and matched up perfectly against us. A team that would have been beaten soundly if our quarterback had been able to move, rather than having his ankle in a cast the week before the superbowl.

This thread has some of the most idiotic posts I have ever seen on this board.
 
It's very difficult to look back at the years we won the superbowl and conclude that just because there were more rush attempts in those years then in 2007 that that's the key to winning it all. In 01, 03, and 04, we did not have the playmakers that we have in Moss and Welker today. It wouldn't be good strategy in my book to take the ball away from their hands because those guys are the ones who game after game are the ones who gain the yards and score the TD's. Gameplans have to take into account the type of personnel you have in your team. To rush just for the sake of rushing is terrible strategy when you have WR's as good as ours.

If we're going to talk stats about superbowl winning teams, you only have to look back at the Montana led 49ers to understand that you don't need to rush the ball x number of times a game to win superbowls.
 
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Football is a physical game, and if you beat the other guys up, you'll win nine times out of ten. It's very tempting, therefore, to say that a commitment to the run is key to establishing physical dominance on offense. However, opponents can get physically beat down just as readily by an efficient hurry up. D-linemen get gassed as a hurry-up drive gets extended and that not only translates to better pass protection and more efficient offense now. It makes the defense weaker in the long-run, making it possible for guys like Cory Dillon to do his clock-killing.

The primary tradeoff in this physical battle is that your own defense often finds itself on the field more, simply because the game is longer. The difference that I expect to see this year is that the depth on the Pats D is so great that they'll be able to rotate guys in at Every Position, while still putting a first-rate defense out on the field. The passing game will work to extend the game (unless it's so efficient on a given day that the game is a blowout) and the Pats depth will help prevent them from losing the physical battle on the defensive side of the ball.

The depth is pretty impressive, too. Looking at the projected roster, and there are only a couple of position where the Pats won't be cutting someone I'd be perfectly happy to have at the bottom of the depth chart at that position. If Brady can stay upright, this year is going to be a lot of fun, especially when they get a lead and the new-and-improved defense gets to go after the opposing QB. :eek::eek:

OK, now that they've won the Superbowl in my head, I think I'll go check out the draft class of 2010. :rolleyes:
 
No, that's not true. You're completely ignoring what I've been saying.

I've NEVER said that improving our defense isn't our #1 priority. I've ALWAYS been defense-first, and I've applauded the fact that we're finally added a long-needed infusion of youth, speed, and (hopefully) talent on defense. I would agree with you that as far as the defense is concerned, the secondary (first) and LB corps (second) appear to be greater areas of need than the defensive line. I'm hopeful that the defense will be improved over the 2005-2008 era and that once it gels we may see something special develop, but it's early days, and things may not come together. In particular, I have argued for a more aggressive and disruptive defense than in the past few years, which I think will be possible with the added speed and depth on defense. While I don't want to see us become Pittsburgh or Baltimore on defense, I think we have gotten a bit too soft defensively. So I hope to see a change not only in terms of speed (coverage ability, pressure) but in terms of attitude.

However, I disagree with those who think that the offense is completely set. Granted, with the return of TB and our potent receiving weapons we should see a return of the passing attack to near-2007 levels of proficiency. But where I differ from some on the board is that I am concerned that that is not entirely a good thing if it means continuing to become more of a finesse team and giving up some on the running game. I think that we need the capability to situationally run the ball in order to keep opposing D's off balance, wear them down, break their spirit, control the clock, give our defense a breather, and generally teach them that we are still the meanest toughest sons of b*tches on the block. I don't see any reason that that cannot be achieved while still being a "pass first" big strike offense. I'm concerned that we've become softer on both offense and defense since the SB years, and I'd like to see a bit of an attitude change on both sides of the ball, without taking away from our existing strengths.

As far as TB being the "wrong" QB for a balanced game plan, that's how he made his reputation. Peyton was the guy who put up the big numbers and set records, but TB was the money QB who managed the game, didn't necessarily put up as big numbers, but was money when it counted and always came through with the big play - and who won the SBs. Up to the AFCCG in 2006 (including all the SB years) that was their respective roles. It was only after we lost a shootout in the AFCCG - one in which our defense ended up exhausted and unable to keep up at the end - that we went on a shopping spree to get TB some very nice toys so that the offense went trigger happy. I'd personally be very content with the offense staying more balanced as it was in 2008, but with Brady at the helm instead of Cassel. Saying that Brady is the wrong QB for that kind of an approach is just asinine.

Sure, the defense plays better when its up 10-14 points. Any defense does. Being up 20-30 helps even more. But we won't always be up 10-14 (or more) points. I'm fine with having some 50-7 romps during the regular season when we don't have to run the ball and the defense gets a freebie. But when the games get close down the stretch and into the post-season, when the bitter cold and nasty weather conditions hit along with better defenses, I'd like us to be able to run the ball a little.

Anway, it's obvious by now (actually, it was obvious a long time ago) that we're not going to agree. So go ahead and stick your head in the sand in blissful ignorance that Brady-to-Moss and Welker will cure all. Time will tell whether that's enough to be the exception to history, or whether history repeats itself. I'd rather have a running game to complement our passing game (along with, not instead of, the defensive improvements) and not take any chances.

It is metaphysically impossible for me to agree with each and every one of these words any more than I already do. This might very well be the post of the year.
 
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Boy and look at how many teams were able to stop us. One team, that got every lucky bounce, and matched up perfectly against us. A team that would have been beaten soundly if our quarterback had been able to move, rather than having his ankle in a cast the week before the superbowl.

This thread has some of the most idiotic posts I have ever seen on this board.

Starting with yours.
 
If a JAG receiver doesn't make the catch of his life on an "Oh, crap. Please!" pass by an overrated QB, this discussion isn't even happening. That one damned play has caused a huge block of the fan base to lose its mind.

The Patriots didn't lose in 2007 because they couldn't run the ball. That was a symptom, not the problem. The offensive problem (actually problems) were

Neal's injury
Brady's injury
Injury and poor play at the tight end position
Logan Mankins having his worst game as a professional


There was (were) the problem(s). The problem(s) resulted in the Giants being close enough to steal the game.
 
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In the final analysis, I think we all can be optimistic for 2009 based on one small stat:

The Patriots STARTING defense has not allowed any TD or any opponents inside the red zone in games 1 and 2.

Hopefully this continues.
 
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If a JAG receiver doesn't make the catch of his life on an "Oh, crap. Please!" pass by an overrated QB, this discussion isn't even happening. That one damned play has caused a huge block of the fan base to lose its mind.

The Patriots didn't lose in 2007 because they couldn't run the ball.

I didn't say that. They were so talented they could have won despite playing into the defense's hands.

I said they would have won if they had run the ball in the second half. Seems a semantic distinction, but it's not.
 
I didn't say that. They were so talented they could have won despite playing into the defense's hands.

I said they would have won if they had run the ball in the second half. Seems a semantic distinction, but it's not.
No, it isn't, because if they could have run the ball inthe second half, they could have run the clock out and won the game.

Someone once said, pass to score, run to win.
 
If a JAG receiver doesn't make the catch of his life on an "Oh, crap. Please!" pass by an overrated QB, this discussion isn't even happening. That one damned play has caused a huge block of the fan base to lose its mind.

The Patriots didn't lose in 2007 because they couldn't run the ball. That was a symptom, not the problem. The offensive problem (actually problems) were

Neal's injury
Brady's injury
Injury and poor play at the tight end position
Logan Mankins having his worst game as a professional


There was (were) the problem(s). The problem(s) resulted in the Giants being close enough to steal the game.

Lots of excuses for why we lost the game, but the fact is, we lost the game. Rams fans still have lots of excuses for why they lost in 2001 to what they consider to have been a vastly inferior team. But they lost, and so did we. No excuses.

The fact is, it makes sense to put together the best team possible. Clearly, the defense has not been up to the standards of the 2003-2004 SB teams. BB has taken major steps to remedy this in the past 2 offseasons. As I've previously mentioned, we have twice the turnover on defense this year as compared with last, turnover motivated by choice rather than by necessity. 5/9 DBs will be new (Bodden, Springs, Butler, Chung, McGowan). Possibly 4/9 LBs will be new as compared to 2008 (Burgess, Banta-Cain, Crable and possibly Lenon; McKenzie would have been a lock if he hadn't gotten injured). So the FO has taken steps to address the defense. Now we need to give the players time to learn the system and gel, and fine out what we have. We've been beating up on the defense for so long and clamoring for change, that it seems fairly obvious. The FO has reacted, and it will take time to see if they made the right moves. Certainly the LB corps and secondary have a nucleus of young speed and talent which we haven't seen in a long time.

The return of TB guarantees that we will have an explosive offense - perhaps not the points of 2007, but similar quick strike and ball control capability. The only other piece that is potentially missing is a ground control running game. All some of us are saying is that that would be a valuable asset to the team particularly down the stretch, in cold weather, and in the playoffs. NO ONE is suggesting jettisoning our basic approach and becoming a run first team. But I for one still would like our chances better if I knew that we could occasionally run the ball down someone's throat, even when they know it's coming. I don't have much confidence right now that we can do that, more because we're not committed to it than because we lack the personnel.

When we're up by 6 points in the next SB with the ball and 6 minutes on the clock, I'd rather see a 5+ minute grind it out drive (mainly running the ball mixed in with short passes) resulting in a field goal which puts the game out of reach with less than a minute left, instead of a near-perfect Brady-to-Moss bomb which just misses and results in a 3 and out series giving the opponents the ball back with 5 minutes left down by 6.

If that's "lsoing one's mind" then I plead guilty.
 
No, it isn't, because if they could have run the ball inthe second half, they could have run the clock out and won the game.

Someone once said, pass to score, run to win.

They had one (1) running play in the 4th quarter. There are a lot more reasons to establish the run than to run out the clock.

By the way, that carry went for 9 yards and the Pats were never behind by more than three before the final score.
 
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