Pats workout Gohlston

[mayoclinic]

Here's an interesting read on Rex Ryan and the Jets LBs:

NY Jets - Pro Football Weekly

For as much pure athletic talent as it boasts, for as much money that’s invested in it, and for as much tantalizing potential it brims with, the Jets’ star-laden linebacker corps isn’t necessarily the gold mine it appears to be on paper. It’s certainly hard to argue with the names comprising the unit, which includes three former first-round picks. But significant questions remain about each player. For Pace and Thomas, it’s whether their dominant 2007 and 2006 campaigns amid otherwise lackluster careers can be replicated. For Harris, it’s whether his sophomore slump of ’08 can be traced to injury woes or whether he outdid himself off rookie adrenaline in ’07. The concern with Gholston is that he’s a lost cause playing in space given that his natural position is defensive end. Scott, meanwhile, has to prove he can command the huddle and spotlight after playing second fiddle to Ray Lewis in Baltimore.

Given the concerns, we’re hearing that new head coach and defensive guru Rex Ryan is devoting much of his energy throughout the offseason program to studying the strengths and weaknesses of his linebackers. With the exception of Gholston, the thought process is that the players won’t develop new skill sets by way of coaching, so trying to mold them to fit a pre-set scheme wouldn’t be maximizing their ability.

Among the most critical revelations has been that all the players are at their best operating in an attacking, upfield scheme where they’re encouraged to put their athleticism to use without over-thinking their role. One of the chief criticisms of ousted coach Eric Mangini was that his elaborate system called for too many coverage responsibilities for his linebackers, which mandated they play a more cerebral than physical game.

This is the antithesis of the type of scheme that BB runs, and is a good example of why Gholston would have been a poor fit here. It's also good to keep some of this in mind when looking at the different 3-4 OLB conversion prospects in the draft. Which are better suited to attacking upfield schemes which don't put as many demands on them, and which have what it takes to handle the complex coverage responsbilities and cerebral demands of BB's approach?

 

[VJCPatriot]

Here's an interesting read on Rex Ryan and the Jets LBs:

NY Jets - Pro Football Weekly

For as much pure athletic talent as it boasts, for as much money that’s invested in it, and for as much tantalizing potential it brims with, the Jets’ star-laden linebacker corps isn’t necessarily the gold mine it appears to be on paper. It’s certainly hard to argue with the names comprising the unit, which includes three former first-round picks. But significant questions remain about each player. For Pace and Thomas, it’s whether their dominant 2007 and 2006 campaigns amid otherwise lackluster careers can be replicated. For Harris, it’s whether his sophomore slump of ’08 can be traced to injury woes or whether he outdid himself off rookie adrenaline in ’07. The concern with Gholston is that he’s a lost cause playing in space given that his natural position is defensive end. Scott, meanwhile, has to prove he can command the huddle and spotlight after playing second fiddle to Ray Lewis in Baltimore.

Given the concerns, we’re hearing that new head coach and defensive guru Rex Ryan is devoting much of his energy throughout the offseason program to studying the strengths and weaknesses of his linebackers. With the exception of Gholston, the thought process is that the players won’t develop new skill sets by way of coaching, so trying to mold them to fit a pre-set scheme wouldn’t be maximizing their ability.

Among the most critical revelations has been that all the players are at their best operating in an attacking, upfield scheme where they’re encouraged to put their athleticism to use without over-thinking their role. One of the chief criticisms of ousted coach Eric Mangini was that his elaborate system called for too many coverage responsibilities for his linebackers, which mandated they play a more cerebral than physical game.

This is the antithesis of the type of scheme that BB runs, and is a good example of why Gholston would have been a poor fit here. It's also good to keep some of this in mind when looking at the different 3-4 OLB conversion prospects in the draft. Which are better suited to attacking upfield schemes which don't put as many demands on them, and which have what it takes to handle the complex coverage responsbilities and cerebral demands of BB's approach?

So Maualuga who some call as intelligent as a bag of hammers is a better fit for the Pats complex 3-4 scheme than Barwin who has shown a high degree of adaptability and intelligence? Uh huh. That does not compute.

 

[Mainefan]

As we approach the draft, this thread makes for some very cautionary reading. Individually and collectively, we certainly didn't know much. Makes we wonder if we know anything about this draft.

 

[mayoclinic]

So Maualuga who some call as intelligent as a bag of hammers is a better fit for the Pats complex 3-4 scheme than Barwin who is has shown a high degree of adaptability and intelligence? Uh huh. That does not compute.

You said it, I didn't.

I think that there are downhill attacking players who may be suitable for some 3-4 schemes but who aren't good fits for the Pats 3-4 system with its complex schemes and coverage responsibilities. Baltimore and San Diego play more of a downhill attacking scheme. Maualuga could fit in well there, as might someone like an Orapko or English. I see Barwin and Curry as better fits for the Pats kind of scheme, but obviously there is disagreement among this board.

 

[farn]

I'll admit it... when the name Mayo came out, I gave BB the benefit of the doubt (obv - he's waaaay ahead of the "wanna be evaluators"). Still... the name was not as "hot" as Gholston and I was a bit dissapointed. Was glad to see the Pats address the "D", but...

This time around, I suspect it may be more of the same. Rey, Matthews, Cushing... I figure none of the three are coming to Foxborough in 09.

 

[Dirk3601215]

This thread just makes all the arm chair evaluators look foolish. Reading some of these comments before last years draft is priceless. I knew this guy Gholston would bust and I thought Dorsey would bust as well. The guy i missed on was matt ryan cause i thought he would bust. Eggs on my face.

 

[sebman2112]

As we approach the draft, this thread makes for some very cautionary reading. Individually and collectively, we certainly didn't know much. Makes we wonder if we know anything about this draft.

Did you read my post on the subject back then? I wasn't a fan of selecting Gholston, and in a number of threads pointed out why I thought he was likely a bad fit for NE's 34.

 

[PATSNUTme]

The smartest thing I have down in a long time was not to post on this thread last year.

 

[TealSox]

"(Ohio State DE-OLB) Vernon Gholston can rush the passer, get to the quarterback and make big plays, and in the NFL, those are the guys that get paid. You wish he were better all-around, but it will be interesting to see where he lands. He needs to be in a '30' front."

"If I were trying to read Bill Parcells, I would think he likes (Vernon) Gholston better than Chris Long because he can coach the kid to pursue and play hard. He cannot make Chris Long come off the edge much faster."

http://www.profootballweekly.com/PFW...wwhi041608.htm

NE Patriots Draft: In your first mock draft, you have the Patriots taking Vernon Gholston. What do you make of the reports that he is this year's Mike Mamula?

Gosselin: There are no sure things in any draft, be it the first overall pick or the 255th pick. You find that the higher a player is on the draft board, the more he gets criticized and picked apart leading up to the draft. No one cares that a pass rusher from Emporia State in the sixth round might be the next Mike Mamula. But put that label on a guy who got 14 sacks at Ohio Stateand folks will pay attention. Gholston also might be the next Hugh Douglas. History says a guy who collected 14 sacks at Ohio State should be a pretty good player. He also has the measurables the NFL likes, which is why he sits near the top of the draft board with the label best pass rusher in the draft. I gave him to the Patriots in my first mock because I thought he was a terrific value at the seventh overall pick.

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/13/80993-gosselin-gholston.html

 

[VJCPatriot]

I was in favor of drafting Clady or DRC. Those players seemed to have turned out pretty well.

 

[mayoclinic]

Did you read my post on the subject back then? I wasn't a fan of selecting Gholston, and in a number of threads pointed out why I thought he was likely a bad fit for NE's 34.

I've made a lot of good calls, including not being on the Gholston bandwagon (I liked Mayo, Clady and DRC last year, and I still like all 3). But I've had my sure of egg-on-my-face moments too. I was convinced Alan Branch was going to be the next Richard Seymour in 2007, and couldn't believe our luck when he was still available at 28. My bad.

 

[Synovia]

Re: Pats workout Gohlston (2009)

Geez, I think I was even excited about this guy.

He's a 3-4 OLB conversion. Most take a couple years...he could still end up a great player, A-la Thomas, or Harrison.

 

[mayoclinic]

Re: Pats workout Gohlston (2009)

He's a 3-4 OLB conversion. Most take a couple years...he could still end up a great player, A-la Thomas, or Harrison.

Or he could never make the leap. It's not clear that he has the later mobility and awareness to play in space. He's a forward moving player and a power rusher.

I think that Rex Ryan will be more effective and scheming to Gholston's strengths than Mangini. Gholston has talent, no doubt about it - but not the talent required to play 3-4 in a BB system.

There are a lot of good players coming out this year - Brian Orapko, Everette Brown, Larry English. I like all of them. But that doesn't mean that they're good 3-4 candidates for the Pats. Belichick's system is particularly demanding on the LBs to make reads, handle blockers, cover the TEs, and do a variety of jobs other than rush the passer. It takes a highly intelligent player to be able to make that transition. I think Chris Long or David Pollack might have been able to do it, but we'll never know, and Long in particular would not have been cost effective as a transition prospect.

 

[Synovia]

Re: Pats workout Gohlston (2009)

Or he could never make the leap. It's not clear that he has the later mobility and awareness to play in space. He's a forward moving player and a power rusher

Oh, I'm not saying he will. But, it really depends on scheme. James Harrison doesn't play in space.

 

[mayoclinic]

Re: Pats workout Gohlston (2009)

Oh, I'm not saying he will. But, it really depends on scheme. James Harrison doesn't play in space.

Exactly. Great point. All 3-4 OLB schemes are not created equal. The Pats require much more ability to read and react and play in space than do Pittsburgh, Baltimore, and San Diego, where a forward moving disruptor can be highly successful.

 

[Synovia]

Re: Pats workout Gohlston (2009)

Exactly. Great point. All 3-4 OLB schemes are not created equal. The Pats require much more ability to read and react and play in space than do Pittsburgh, Baltimore, and San Diego, where a forward moving disruptor can be highly successful.

Gholston may turn into a Vrable type player in the sense that hes not all that useful to the team that drafted him, but ends up being a key contributer to someone else.


NY is still at the point where they should be grabbing the best talent that they can, and building the scheme around that, not the other way around, similar to what NE was doing in 2000

 

[TriplecHamp]

Keep calling Gholston a bust, and hope to God he dosnt "bust" out against the Pats this year. Just respect the mans tallent thats all im saying.

 

[mayoclinic]

Keep calling Gholston a bust, and hope to God he dosnt "bust" out against the Pats this year. Just respect the mans tallent thats all im saying.

I've never called Gholston a bust. I HAVE said that he was a bust his first year, which is a different thing.

I would make the following statements about Gholston:

1. I think he was a top 15 (possibly top 10) talent as a rush DE. Similar to Orapko this year. I have no problem with him as a top 4-3 DE - second only to Chris Long last year, and better in terms of upside.

2. I think he lacks some of the ideal characteristics for a transition to 3-4 OLB, and is a better 4-3 DE. That isn't to say that he won't be able to make the transition over time, but I don't think it is an easy one for him, or that it plays to his strengths.

3. I think he would be a particularly poor candidate for a 3-4 OLB for the Patriots, whose system puts more emphasis on the things that Gholston struggles with and less emphasis on the things he is good at.

4. I expect him to do much better this year, in part because last year was so terrible, in part because I expect him to improve, and in part because I think Rex Ryan will be smarter about scheming him in ways that play to his strengths.

If that adds up to being a "bust" then I will plead guilty.

 

[gomezcat]

This thread just makes all the arm chair evaluators look foolish. Reading some of these comments before last years draft is priceless. I knew this guy Gholston would bust and I thought Dorsey would bust as well. The guy i missed on was matt ryan cause i thought he would bust. Eggs on my face.

Congrats on knowing that Gholston and Dorsey would bust. I'd love to see more of your work, as you obviously know your stuff. Can you post a link to the posts where you stated this on other forums?

 

[gomezcat]

I've made a lot of good calls, including not being on the Gholston bandwagon (I liked Mayo, Clady and DRC last year, and I still like all 3). But I've had my sure of egg-on-my-face moments too. I was convinced Alan Branch was going to be the next Richard Seymour in 2007, and couldn't believe our luck when he was still available at 28. My bad.

The problem is that we extrapolate based on much more limited information than is available to scouts. I think you guys do a good job given how limited that information is, I have to say.

Someone on the Planet posted a really good article on how things pan out once someone is drafted:

FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Football analysis and NFL stats for the Moneyball era - Authors of Pro Football Prospectus 2008