Your 2015 Pittsburgh Steelers...

[Deus Irae]

Repost as you see fit...Steelers Depot has a couple of young guys that really do a bang-up job of technical analysis. But even for them, this was pretty comprehensive.

Thanks. I was actually referring to the fact that those two topics have been areas of some pretty strong disagreement around here. We had a seemingly sizable group of posters trying to pin that INT on Brady, for example, and there have been many claiming that Mason has struggled while Jackson's been rock solid.

Having an outsider's take on them could spark new discussion on those matters.

 

[lillloyd]

Thanks. I was actually referring to the fact that those two topics have been areas of some pretty strong disagreement around here. We had a seemingly sizable group of posters trying to pin that INT on Brady, for example, and there have been many claiming that Mason has struggled while Jackson's been rock solid.

Having an outsider's take on them could spark new discussion on those matters.

FWIW, they have repeatedly put out the disclaimer (and I think this applies to any All-22 junkies and would-be scouts out there) that there are some limitations to what you can really infer from tape. Coverages where one DB looks "beaten" when in fact there is a blown assignment elsewhere that leaves him trailing in the frame trying to make up for the initial mistake, for example. Or OL play where a lineman doesn't hand a defender off properly that impacts the play. You can't always see the team concepts or principles that a player or group is trying to adhere to on a given play.

But I think this type of analysis can be pretty spot-on for looking at individual technique issues andone-on-one matchups.

BTW do you agree with their take on Solder? It would be nice if Pitt if they could actually collapse the edge a bit in pass D...

 

[Deus Irae]

FWIW, they have repeatedly put out the disclaimer (and I think this applies to any All-22 junkies and would-be scouts out there) that there are some limitations to what you can really infer from tape. Coverages where one DB looks "beaten" when in fact there is a blown assignment elsewhere that leaves him trailing in the frame trying to make up for the initial mistake, for example. Or OL play where a lineman doesn't hand a defender off properly that impacts the play. You can't always see the team concepts or principles that a player or group is trying to adhere to on a given play.

But I think this type of analysis can be pretty spot-on for looking at individual technique issues andone-on-one matchups.

BTW do you agree with their take on Solder? It would be nice if Pitt if they could actually collapse the edge a bit in pass D...

I'm not as high on Solder as the Patriots seem to be. I think he's a good LT, but he's not a top guy (he's not a top 2 LT, by any legit stretch of the imagination, which is what the Patriots OL coach was apparently quoted as saying). He can still be beaten both by quicks and power, and he's too reliant on his LG for help.

That said, the key to beating the Patriots OL has been the same for about a decade or more:

Isolate the tackles, especially against speed, and stunt along the inside.


That's historically been the best way to take advantage of the individual physical limitations of Patriots OL, especially in the undersized center (Koppen/Wendell) eras.

 

[PatsDeb]

That scouting report was pretty cool, and based on it, looks like maybe we shouldn't have given Solder an extension...(J/K).

 

[lillloyd]

Here is the writeup of the NE defensive side of the ball:
http://www.steelersdepot.com/2015/09/new-england-patriots-defensive-scouting-report/

Interestingly enough, the first play they highlight is the Easley/Collins inside stunt that I discussed in one of the very first posts. I have no idea how consistent Easley is at this point but his highlights are certainly impressive.

Note the guys doing the writeups added the disclaimer that they did NOT have access to All-22 footage (I assume because it's preseason and the NFL may not provide that All-22 footage?), which makes the defensive analysis a little tougher.

 

[Joker]

Opening games are next to impossible to predict with any accuracy.

Crapshoot tomorrow night , Lil L....rain will be intense

 

[supafly]

Here is the writeup of the NE defensive side of the ball:
http://www.steelersdepot.com/2015/09/new-england-patriots-defensive-scouting-report/

Interestingly enough, the first play they highlight is the Easley/Collins inside stunt that I discussed in one of the very first posts. I have no idea how consistent Easley is at this point but his highlights are certainly impressive.

Note the guys doing the writeups added the disclaimer that they did NOT have access to All-22 footage (I assume because it's preseason and the NFL may not provide that All-22 footage?), which makes the defensive analysis a little tougher.

Thank you for posting.

 

[lillloyd]

Opening games are next to impossible to predict with any accuracy.

Crapshoot tomorrow night , Lil L....rain will be intense

My hope is that I'm reading way too much into the preseason (in particular, Pitt's dismal defensive performance). Not that I'm expecting the '85 Bears, but it's at least possible that the actual starting unit (which naturally didn't play much in the preseason) could be more "average" than "awful", which may be all we need to be competitive.

The argument that rain might hurt Pittsburgh more would be this: they have a lot of younger players on defense that have a tendency towards over-aggressiveness. If they are similarly aggressive tonight and run to their tackling targets out of control (as they did in their horrible defensive showing in the last preseason game, when they were slipping all over a loose Buffalo field), the rain would only exacerbate matters.

Than again, maybe this is another instance of reading too much into the preseason. Pitt's D looked horrendous against Buffalo, but obviously mostly backups and camp fodder that played that game.

 

[zydecochris]

Kudos, you really nailed this analysis (at least for the first half).

The primary problem for the Steelers defense has been recognition instead of talent, just as you predicted.

Nicely done, sir.

Question 2: Is Pittsburgh’s defense really that bad?

Yup.

Moving on…


Question 3: Why exactly is it so bad when they’ve invested so many high round picks over the past 3 years in the defense?

It’s a combination of inexperience, a new defensive scheme, a tendency towards overly aggressive/undisciplined play, and suspect talent at the key positions.

Pittsburgh doesn’t exactly lack for talent per se on defense. Cameron Heyward is a stud 3-4 DE, and Stephon Tuitt looks like he’ll be a monster bookend for years to come (although Tuitt is dinged and may not play). There is talent and depth at ILB (Timmons, Shazier), and we’ve invested heavily all across the linebacking core with 1st round picks. I actually don’t think the CB situation is as bad as advertised – they may have a bunch of average corners at best IMO, but CB isn’t their biggest issue.

The biggest issue with the defense IMO is recognition and football IQ – players routinely break down in their assignments, either due to poor recognition, poor understanding of the defense, or pure over-aggressiveness. Shamarko Thomas – the heir apparent to Troy P, who the Steelers traded up to grab a couple of years ago – is the most egregious offender here. He has been caught out of position on at least two TD passes this preseason, and I’m starting to doubt whether he has the between-the-ears component required to play safety in the NFL. Jarvis Jones is another – several times a game he crashes inside and vacates containment. Shazier is a whirlwind, but lacks ballast and can be blown out of plays if OLinemen reach the 2nd level. Put these things together, and there are frequent, major gaps each game that an offense can easily exploit.

[EDIT: As of Sunday, Shamarko Thomas is benched and Will Allen is Thursday’s starting strong safety. Allen is a savvy veteran...with none of Thomas’ speed or athleticism.]

Pitt also has a new D Coordinator (Keith Butler), and they seem intent on playing a new scheme that involves more push upfield from the DL on pass rushing downs, and more Cover 2 on the back end. The problem is that Thomas and the free safety, Mike Mitchell, have only played a handful of downs together this preseason, and in any event seem miles away from having the savvy and communication level needed to successfully execute the Cover 2. This issue extends to the ILBs, who have to quickly determine if they have to sprint back to get adequate depth in a cover 2…I’ve noticed several occasions this preseason where the ILBs have sprinted back only to get gashed by a delayed handoff or draw. I’m concerned that Pitt simply lacks the veteran smarts required to run the Cover 2 at this time.

Finally, I fear that Pittsburgh may simply not be very good at safety or OLB. James Harrison had a great camp and seems to have found the fountain of youth, but it’s not a good sign that he is clearly still Pittsburgh’s best pass rusher…how long until he breaks down? Jarvis Jones flashes but is undisciplined; Arthur Moats is mostly a journeyman on the other side, and Bud Dupree is a year away (at least). And aside from a single nice season in Carolina, Mitchell is almost as much an unproven commodity at safety as Thomas.

One last note re/ the defense: it’s worth monitoring the conditions of starters Lawrence Timmons, Stephon Tuitt, and Mike Mitchell in the days leading up to the game. All three were dinged to varying degrees over the last couple of weeks of the preseason. It would not be surprising to me if any of these guys were to miss the game, or at least be significantly limited within it; Timmons is really the guy to watch here as he makes all of the defensive calls. Pitt also added a 7th DLineman Sunday--a possible indicator that Tuitt will not be able to go.

Bottom line: it will not take much in the way of scheme or talent for New England to exploit the Pittsburgh defense. I know NE’s offense has struggled somewhat in the preseason, and I know there have been some concerns on this board about NE’s talent and depth at wideout and RB…but frankly it just won’t take much to confuse our defense badly (and repeatedly). Against less cerebral quarterbacks and coaches, we might be okay…I really doubt this will be the case against Brady and BB.

 

[Wordsmyth]

D looked like shizzle there.

 

[livinginthe past]

Steelers coaching staff have next to no clock management skills.

 

[Deus Irae]

We just watched two teams that will have to dramatically improve their DB corps, either with vastly superior play or with personnel moves. And, sad to say for Steelers fans, Miller looks like he's lost a full step from last year. It's early, so maybe he'll look better moving forward.

 

[lillloyd]

We just watched two teams that will have to dramatically improve their DB corps, either with vastly superior play or with personnel moves. And, sad to say for Steelers fans, Miller looks like he's lost a full step from last year. It's early, so maybe he'll look better moving forward.

Sad to say: Miller looked like he had lost a full step as of *last* year. He has another year, maybe two. But he has been in decline for some time now (and this includes his blocking).

You guys traded for Talib mid-season a couple of years ago, right? At least your team is willing to make those kinds of mid-season moves (Pitt historically does not). I will say, obviously with Bryant in the game the damage arguably would have been worse...just imagine Bryant in the place of DHB.

Things that surprised me about the game:

• Both offenses playing so well, despite their missing centers. Pittsburgh's inability to exploit a rookie UDFA (?) was an important aspect of the game, as Pittsburgh's secondary was never going to hold up without pressure.
• While I was not surprised at DWill's general effectiveness (he looked good all preseason), I *was* surprised with the relative ease with which Pitt was able to get a consistent push in the run game. I'm guessing NE's run D will improve as the year goes on.
• Haley's (failed) gadget call on the initial drive. Hindsight is always 20/20 with play calls...still there was nothing really to warrant such a call...Pitt was moving smartly down the field. A bit too cute for my tastes. Getting zero out of that drive was a tone setter.
• Josh Scobee's misadventures on Special Teams. After our first two kickers were IR'd, we thought we'd secured an experienced, reliable kicker when we traded for Scobee. Nothing in the preseason (or his career for that matter) would have predicted such a shaky start, on a night where we needed every point we could get.
• While I understand Gronk getting his (he is uncoverable), I was surprised that Pittsburgh could not even make an adjustment to slow down Edelman, who seemed to be running free all night on short pass patterns outside the numbers.

Things that did NOT surprise me about the game:

• Brady and Roethlisberger dropping "bucket throws" all over the field all night against suspect secondaries.
• Pittsburgh's defense repeatedly showing basic alignment confusion pre-snap, leading to multiple critical plays. (This was noted in the original thread writeup--I think this may improve over the season, but this has been going on for well over a year now).
• Brady and NE making the most of their yardage while Pittsburgh mostly squandered theirs. While Pittsburgh was obviously missing key options, it has been a common theme that they often come away empty in the RZ.
• Gronk being Gronk and Brady being Brady. (And to a slightly lesser extent, AB being AB and Ben being Ben). I there will be a lot of hand-wringing on the part of both fan bases regarding their pass defense -- and rightly so -- but there's some consolation in that both defenses were going up against a lethal QB-pass catcher pairing. Not every offense our defenses will face will have surgical signal callers.
• Darius Heyward-Bey being DHB. At least he didn't drop that long pass. But that would-be TD where he let his foot slide out was a JV effort IMO. Bryant could have made a massive difference here and potentially in the red zone generally. There is a major talent drop off after Brown/Bryant/Wheaton at wideout; DHB should not be getting regular snaps at WR in the NFL.
• The Patriots finding an effective back from the scrap heap (Dion Lewis). Both backup RBs played well enough IMO that they should get regular weekly touches, even after the lead backs return.

TBH I don't know that we can say definitively if we saw two really good offenses, or just two very suspect secondaries tonight. I'm hoping it's more the former than the latter...but I suppose the two aren't mutually exclusive

Anyway good luck the rest of the way...maybe we'll get a rematch sometime down the road.

lillloyd

 

[lillloyd]

Steelers coaching staff have next to no clock management skills.

It's a been a distressing (and frankly stunning, at the NFL level!) long-term issue. What you saw today is consistent with the past decade. Not sure if it's Tomlin, or Roethlisberger overriding calls in the two minute drill. But a 12 year-old with Madden and an XBox One may have a better sense of how to use timeouts.

 

[lillloyd]

Kudos, you really nailed this analysis (at least for the first half).

The primary problem for the Steelers defense has been recognition instead of talent, just as you predicted.

Nicely done, sir.

Thanks, I try... But to be fair, I *did* say there is a talent issue as well (at least in the secondary).

It's frustrating because it seems like fundamental issues like this would be correctable, but we had a lot of issues like this last year as well. Not sure if it's coaching, a football IQ issue, or (most likely) just an issue with having a lot of new faces and young players trying to figure things out while on the job.

I should add -- the most alarming thing said by the announcers was that Pittsburgh had dumbed the defense down so that all the young players could grasp it. Which essentially means they were struggling even with a very basic approach. (Sigh.)

 

[Wrath Mania]

It's a been a distressing (and frankly stunning, at the NFL level!) long-term issue. What you saw today is consistent with the past decade. Not sure if it's Tomlin, or Roethlisberger overriding calls in the two minute drill. But a 12 year-old with Madden and an XBox One may have a better sense of how to use timeouts.

Man, I'm not saying this to rub anything in, but just as a fan of good football: the end of the game was one of the most brutal two-minute drills I've ever seen. From bungling the two-minute warning to wasting all but two seconds before the final touchdown, I really don't even know what they were trying to do out there: if they were gonna bother with the onside kick and everything, why let the clock run down to two seconds???? People should have been asking Tomlin about that instead of phantom airwaves. It really was -almost- frustrating to watch, even as a fan of the other team.

Good thing for you is PIT's offense seems really, really good- the difference in the entire game was really just execution on a the crucial plays. You guys will be contenders. Hopefully at Baltimore's expense..

EDIT: Your write-ups have been great btw, thanks.

 

[Tunescribe]

Just got back from the game. Unfortunately, it reminded me that Steelers fans tend to be real pricks when visiting other teams' stadiums. At least there wasn't much yellow towel waving tonight. It was satisfying to see them slink their way home all wet and defeated. One a-hole had a sign with him with the word "deflate" on it and was stupid enough to carry it with him into the parking lot afterward. Talk about inviting verbal abuse!

 

[Wheelman]

Thanks for dropping by again, @lillloyd Your input is always appreciated! Good luck with your Steelers, perhaps we'll meet again.

 

[Joker]

Tomlin the Tripper is a total azzole scumbag. Lost every bit of what little respect I ever had for him after getting home from this game and seeing what he pulled in the post game. His outburst was so stupid and idiotic I have to wonder if he isn't just figurehead coach like Ditka was. I got news for Mike Tomlin...you have ALL OFFSEASON to prepare your secondary for Gronk and you put a 5'10" 190 pound bean pole on himn in the red zone??? YOU are a complete MORON. What the hell does a head set have to do with YOU being an unprepared buffoon?

 

[zydecochris]

Thanks, I try... But to be fair, I *did* say there is a talent issue as well (at least in the secondary).

It's frustrating because it seems like fundamental issues like this would be correctable, but we had a lot of issues like this last year as well. Not sure if it's coaching, a football IQ issue, or (most likely) just an issue with having a lot of new faces and young players trying to figure things out while on the job.

I should add -- the most alarming thing said by the announcers was that Pittsburgh had dumbed the defense down so that all the young players could grasp it. Which essentially means they were struggling even with a very basic approach. (Sigh.)

If I can make a mild suggestion, your excellent post-game synopsis would be a welcome addition to the "Post Game Thread", it might find more reader there, and your posts have been very illuminating.

I think that the reason Tomlin was so frustrated is that the game just flat made him look bad, and he is smart enough to recognize that. Part of the reason is the very poor game management (clearly his fault), and part is that, as you originally pointed out, the defense (particularly the secondary) seems to be very discombobulated and the football players seem to have very limited football intelligence, which is probably partially his fault but it could also be that they have some Pittsburg players are aggressive and athletic but just don't have good football intelligence, at least at this stage of their career.

It is interesting that Belichick has really caught a gigantic amount of flack because he has grossly "overdrafted" (according to draftniks) very smart "coach on the field" types, particularly at safety. Tavon Wilson, 2nd Round from Illinois in 2012; Duron Harmon 3rd Round from Rutgers 2013, Jorden Richards, 2nd Round from Stanford, 2015. All of these very smart players were considered (by draftniks) to have been available many rounds later, and their drafting led to great consternation by some Patsfans.com posters, as well as, television draftniks. The jury is still out on these guys, but I think seeing how discombobulated and "dumb" the Pittsburg secondary looked last night at least explains why Belichick puts so much value (some would say he overvalues, of course) on these smart "coach on the field" type secondary players.