When did we ever run the Amoeba Offense?

[SVN]

The offense DIDN'T change week to week. Reiss posted game charts after every game, we used one major 3WR shotgun formation as the pre-dominant plays every single week!

McDaniels is full of crap for trying to pretend he changes his offense to his opponent. You have admitted in this thread, and countless past threads, that he basically dares his opponents to beat the plays that they know are happening. That is the opposite of changing your offense, that is stubbornly using your own system and knowing your talent is good enough to usually beat the defense.

Same 3WR offense without moss and welker in 2006 also ? i dont think thats true.he adapted to his players and called what works best with them...whats wrong with that .. ? and he did change things when it didnt work .yes the SB was a bad game but the chargers AFCCG ,he ran a lot with maroney when he knew brady was having a bad game
And above all BB knows whats happening ,he can walk over to mcd and ask him STFU and change things. he has a hand in everything
The eagles in 2007 for e.g. After the game NFLN showed a clip in the sideline after the first half with BB telling brady clearly "We are now going to get out of the no huddle " . He has that kinda input. So BB is an idiot to tolerate this predictable idiotic 10 play coordinator for 4 yrs.

 

[maverick4]

McDaniels ran a VERY explosive spread offense adapted from Meyer at Florida, at the recommendation of Belichick. We ran a much more set, defined, and predictable offense compared to the chameleon offense we ran from 01-04 under Weiss (which allowed us to beat teams even when our offensive personnel was outmatched).

There is nothing inherently wrong with an explosive, predictable offense.

So WHY is McDaniels going around pretending he ran a chameleon, amoeba offense in NE and telling Denver newspapers that lie?

He is bringing the 07-08 NE spread offense with him, why lie about it and pretend he's pulling a Weiss or a Belichick/

 

[lamafist]

The offense DIDN'T change week to week. Reiss posted game charts after every game, we used one major 3WR shotgun formation as the pre-dominant plays every single week!

McDaniels is full of crap for trying to pretend he changes his offense to his opponent. You have admitted in this thread, and countless past threads, that he basically dares his opponents to beat the plays that they know are happening. That is the opposite of changing your offense, that is stubbornly using your own system and knowing your talent is good enough to usually beat the defense.

I tried to tell you this earlier. I'll say it again:

If your understanding of the variations in a football offense doesn't go deeper than personnel packages, then you don't have a good enough grasp on the game to form reasonable conclusions on.

A pure west-coast offense runs plays out of a 3WR formation just as much as a more vertical Indy-style offense.

Until you can make actual, specific points about the predictability and repetitiveness of the Pats' offense under McDaniels, you're not making a coherent, intelligible argument. You're what mathematicians and scientists call "not even wrong" -- in other words, at this point, "wrong" would be a step up for you.

 

[maverick4]

Of course receivers run different routes and there are different assignments for the same formation, but there are only so many iterations from the same formation.

If a guy ran the West Coast offense (with its many variations within formations) and went to a new team, he would be bringing that offense with him.

McDaniels ran a spread offense. He never ran an 'amoeba' offense that shifted and adapted based on the opponent. So WHY is he claiming something otherwise?

Doing scouting and recognizing which defender to pick on that week is not an 'amoeba' offense, that is basic, standard scouting and game planning.

 

[Dagg]

Josh will fail with "the amobea"...hahaha..what a joke.

We confuse coaching with good players ALOT. Once you took the best QB in the league and gave him some weapons 2007 happenend. He doesnt have that in Denver. He can call it the turd sandwich for all I care.

 

[Synovia]

Oh, for crying out loud..... The team set the NFL record for most points in a season. Please don't feed into Maverick's insanity.

What the hell does that have to do with the discussion? The team had the best WR in NFL history, and possibly the best QB in NFL history.


I saw a lot more of "We're going to do what we're going to do, regardless of opponent" than I'd ever seen under Belichick before. If you don't think their offense in 2007 was more static than it had ever been, I don't know what to say. Part of this was because the talent allowed them to "impose their will". I'm very convinced they lost to the superbowl because McDaniels didn't have any alternate plan, it was just "go out and do what we've done, regardless of opponent"

 

[Synovia]

We confuse coaching with good players ALOT. Once you took the best QB in the league and gave him some weapons 2007 happenend. He doesnt have that in Denver. He can call it the turd sandwich for all I care.

McDaniels aside, Denver has an elite QB, an elite WR, and a great young offensive line. So yeah, he pretty much does have that.

 

[SVN]

What the hell does that have to do with the discussion? The team had the best WR in NFL history, and possibly the best QB in NFL history.


I saw a lot more of "We're going to do what we're going to do, regardless of opponent" than I'd ever seen under Belichick before. If you don't think their offense in 2007 was more static than it had ever been, I don't know what to say. Part of this was because the talent allowed them to "impose their will". I'm very convinced they lost to the superbowl because McDaniels didn't have any alternate plan, it was just "go out and do what we've done, regardless of opponent"

if josh didnt have an alternate plan , where was BB during the game ?isnt he the master of everyone and deciding everything ? mcdaniels decided to go on 4th and 24 instead of a FG ?
We give BB credit for being good at everything and gameplans and adjustments and else so he needs to take some blame for this. How about brady ? We deify him and rightfully so as having the ability to see the coverage and change the play and what not. Why didnt he stomp on Mcd and BB and say its not working, lets try something else?
It was a collective failure from all depts in the game,just blaming mcd for not making adjustments isnt completely correct. it just wasnt our day..just my 2 cents.

 

[Deus Irae]

Completely agree.


The patriots probably still run the most flexible offense in the league, but they've been significantly less flexible since McDaniels got the OC title. I think Randy Moss made him a worse OC.

What the hell does that have to do with the discussion? The team had the best WR in NFL history, and possibly the best QB in NFL history.


I saw a lot more of "We're going to do what we're going to do, regardless of opponent" than I'd ever seen under Belichick before. If you don't think their offense in 2007 was more static than it had ever been, I don't know what to say. Part of this was because the talent allowed them to "impose their will". I'm very convinced they lost to the superbowl because McDaniels didn't have any alternate plan, it was just "go out and do what we've done, regardless of opponent"

The offense they used set an NFL record for points. It led to an NFL record for TD passes by a QB and TD receptions by a receiver. Arguing that such an occurence somehow demonstrates McDaniels being a worse O.C. is ridiculous.

 

[maverick4]

it just wasnt our day..just my 2 cents.

Belichick is generally hands off when it comes to his coordinators, look at how different the style of D has changed based on who was DC (Crennel, Mangini, Pees). He only steps in if someone totally f's up like Mangini did. He won't over-ride McDaniels when the talent is so good that the offense usually produces anyways.

With 40 seconds left, needing a FG, having all 3 timeouts, and needing to march 40 yards, we called 4 straight slow developing bomb plays to end the Superbowl. That was on McDaniels. You can say Brady or Belichick could have audible'd out, but they didn't, and the original play caller is way more at fault than the other people who had the option of changing out.


Anyways, this is outside this discussion. McDaniels runs a set, predictable spread offense, NOT an amoeba, chameleon offense like he just lied to the Denver newspapers about.

 

[Synovia]

The offense they used set an NFL record for points. It led to an NFL record for TD passes by a QB and TD receptions by a receiver. Arguing that such an occurence somehow demonstrates McDaniels being a worse O.C. is ridiculous.

No, it doesnt.

You can have your developement ******ed and still be very good at something. The record scoring was about talent, not scheme or adjustments.



I'm not saying hes a bad coordinator. I'm saying I think he would have been a better one if he didn't have "Chuck it to moss" as an option. How many plays in 2007 did you think "nobody but Moss". Look back to the Miami game, when Moss rips the ball away from 3 DBs in the endzone. Are you arguing that was a good play call? McDaniels got away with a lot of poor calls because the talent was so overwhelming.

 

[lamafist]

After all this arguing, I find it funny that there still has yet to be a cogent argument put forward regarding the predictability or repetitiveness of McDaniels' offense.

Instead, I've just read a number repetitions of the original assertion that McDaniels' offense is repetitive and predictable. Simply stating your position again louder or in stronger language does not constitute evidence.

Seriously -- just try and take any two games from McDaniels' tenure, and show how the offensive scheme is the same. Try to make an actual argument, built on actual evidence from actual games. Otherwise, you'll just keep saying "are too" and they'll keep saying "is not," ad nauseum.

 

[maverick4]

Almost every game is dominated by the 3WR shotgun formation, look at Reiss's post game formation charts.

It's a lot easier going about this the other way: prove his assertion that he changed up the offense every single week. If you can only name a few examples out of 4 years of play calling where he came up with a different looking offense, then you know he is a liar and full of crap of telling the Denver media he ran an amoeba-like offense while up here. Even his biggest defenders don't argue this point, they spend energy trying to argue why being predictable isn't necessarily a bad thing.

 

[lamafist]

Almost every game is dominated by the 3WR shotgun formation, look at Reiss's post game formation charts.

It's a lot easier going about this the other way: prove his assertion that he changed up the offense every single week. If you can only name a few examples out of 4 years of play calling where he came up with a different looking offense, then you know he is a liar and full of crap of telling the Denver media he ran an amoeba-like offense while up here. Even his biggest defenders don't argue this point, they spend energy trying to argue why being predictable isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Nope. Sorry, dude. You still haven't managed to make an actual argument yet.

As I pointed out before, simply pointing out that the Pats -- like most teams in the NFL do at this point -- used the 3WR, 1TE, single back as their base formation doesn't in any way suggest that the Patriots offense did not change significantly from week to week. Being amoeba-like is about more than using different personnel packages.

Again, as I pointed out before, offenses predicated on entirely different philosophies are all run out of the same few personnel groupings.

As for the one in particular, 3 WR, 1TE, one RB... just think about how many different ways you can change that up, all pre-snap. Does Faulk or Morris get motioned out into the slot? Does Watson back off the line into more of a FB position? Heck, we've seen Welker motion into something of an H-Back position. Do you start with trips receivers on one side, and motion Moss across? Do you motion into a 3 WR stack? Do you have your TE and slot WR lined up tight in, off the line, with the wideouts lined up just outside?

These are just a tiny sampling of the pre-snap variations I've seen the Pats' use from just that one personnel grouping. And this is all just pre-snap stuff. We haven't even gotten to the variations in the roles the players play once the play starts.

In one game in '07, I remember the Pats starting off in their 3WR base, and running the ball five times in a row. In each situation Welker -- sometimes coming out of the backfield, sometimes motioned in like a TE, and sometimes from a standard slot position -- would hunt down the opposing defenses' MLB like a a heat-seeking missile, and throw nasty block after block. And it worked, too -- the first few times, the MLB didn't expect the team's little WR to be lead-blocking like an H-back. So finally, after getting taken out of the play one too many times, the MLB sees Welker coming, and cuts in and around him...

...only this time, it's a play-action pass, and Welker, having just had the only defended in his zone RUN AWAY from him, catches an easy ball over the middle for a HUGE run after the catch.

So, please, buddy -- if you want to make an actual argument, you're going to have to expand your understanding of the game a bit. Otherwise, you're like some PTA mom who wouldn't know Stephen Jay Gould from Homer Jay Simpson shouting out their opinion on evolution at the local school board meeting.

 

[maverick4]

Just as many people in this thread have balked at this claim of McDaniels that he ran an amoeba offense, as the people who defend him, but even in their defense they emphasize why it's OKAY to be predictable (more or less admitting he is predictable and did not run an amoeba offense).

Instead of pretending like you know everything, or anything, please provide evidence that he did run an amoeba offense, since that is what he is claiming/lying to Denver papers.

 

[lamafist]

Just as many people in this thread have balked at this claim of McDaniels that he ran an amoeba offense, as the people who defend him, but even in their defense they emphasize why it's OKAY to be predictable (more or less admitting he is predictable and did not run an amoeba offense).

Instead of pretending like you know everything, or anything, please provide evidence that he did run an amoeba offense, since that is what he is claiming/lying to Denver papers.

I'm not "pretending" to know anything. I'm simply trying to keep this discussion moving along logical lines.

Thus, I don't care what anybody says in defense of McDaniels' offense, or how many people feel one way or the other about the guy. All that boils down to are the logical fallacies of the appeal to popularity or the bandwagon fallacy. Do you understand that this doesn't add up to any sort of cogent argument? That all this "well, he said this" and "this guy said that" doesn't add any more to the validity of your assertion than banging on the table?

The fact remains that you have repeatedly made the assertion that McDaniels' offense is predictable and repetitive, yet you have, to this point, OFFERED ABSOLUTELY NO EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE to back this up, nor have you even managed to frame your argument in such a fashion as there could exist some sort of empirical evidence that would confirm or refute it.

Despite my several invitations for you to show otherwise, you have yet to demonstrate a sufficient understanding of the x's and o's of NFL offense to be able to judge whether the strategies in two games are remotely similar. I assume that even you will grant that McDaniels has at least a rudimentary understanding of x's and o's. Until you can demonstrate that your assertion is made from such an understanding yourself, you really have no place to try the tired old trick of shifting the burden of proof.

 

[maverick4]

McDaniels is the one making the assertion he ran an amoeba offense, the burden is on him and his ball washers to prove this. Multiple people here, including the thread starter, are questioning that his offense was ever acknowledged or labeled an amoeba offense by himself, any other Pats coach or player, or Boston media, up until his lie to the Denver media. To make an analogy, if a person claims he's God, the burden is on him and his followers to prove he's God, not the other people calling him full of crap.

 

[Deus Irae]

McDaniels is the one making the assertion he ran an amoeba offense, the burden is on him and his ball washers to prove this. Multiple people here, including the thread starter, are questioning that his offense was ever acknowledged or labeled an amoeba offense by himself, any other Pats coach or player, or Boston media, up until his lie to the Denver media. To make an analogy, if a person claims he's God, the burden is on him and his followers to prove he's God, not the other people calling him full of crap.

1.) Did you ever read the article involved in this thread?

2.) You do realize that by claiming McDaniels is lying, you're calling Belichick a liar, right?

3.) You obviously don't grasp how 'burden of proof' issues work.

 

[maverick4]

When one individual makes a bogus claim to the Denver media like McDaniels did, it is on THAT person and/or his ball washers to prove his claim is true, not the other way around. Just because McKID states something does not that it empirical fact.

Belichick never claimed to a new team he joined that he ran an offense or defense that he didn't actually run, and his old team or old town's media ever called it something that he just made up. So no, Belichick is not involved in Mcdaniels' lie.

 

[Deus Irae]

When one individual makes a bogus claim to the Denver media like McDaniels did, it is on THAT person and/or his ball washers to prove his claim is true, not the other way around. Just because McKID states something does not that it empirical fact.

Belichick never claimed to a new team he joined that he ran an offense or defense that he didn't actually run, and his old team or old town's media ever called it something that he just made up. So no, Belichick is not involved in Mcdaniels' lie.

Answer my questions.... did you bother reading the article involved, and do you realize that you are calling Belichick a liar when you claim that McDaniels is lying?