Sources: Saints' GM could eavesdrop on opposing coaches during home games

[lurker1965]

If the Saints don't get nailed hard for this, a lot of teams could be installing this stuff very soon. Are there any states that don'e require consent from any party for recording to be legal? I know that most states are two-party required, and some are one-party, but I don't think there are any zero-party states.

WRONG!!! Then the Saints get a wrist slap and the Patriots get castrated.

 

[unoriginal]

Lastly, on a minor annoyance level, how is electronically tapping into the communications between the other teams' coaches without their knowledge merely "eavesdropping," while the filming of hand signals displayed on the opposing sideline, out in the open, considered "spying?"

In this case "eavesdropping" means hearing things you weren't supposed to hear, while "spying" means seeing things you weren't supposed to see.

If the Pats had used a parabolic mic to pick up play calls, and the Saints had installed cameras to monitor opposing coaches, the terms probably would be reversed.

 

[pherein]

If the Saints don't get nailed hard for this, a lot of teams could be installing this stuff very soon.

Um we are already being made and example of and getting nailed for one thing thats happening on other teams. Now you want us to be the poster child for wiretapping,lol. Why don't we wait and see if its true or not 1st.

At this point the reports are bordering on ridicules. The lawyers for Benson, and loomis are already working on filing a suit against them, and ESPIN has so much confidence, they have buried the story to a paragraph in a article about bounty gate ,lol

 

[JoeSixPat]

With all due respect, you just sound bitter about the 18-1 season, I've seen video that clearly shows we taped teams signals DURING GAMES, forget the walkthrough. Not to mention the NFL destroyed most of the tapes, we can only imagine what those tapes held. While the timing of the release was unfortunate, are you seriously going to blame our Superbowl loss on ESPN? The allegations were not fabricated, the entire world is not conspiring against the Patriots. We broke the rules, and we have paid dearly for it, it's too bad that you just can't let it go. By the way, the "herald" is not the end all be all, regardless of their retraction.

You DO understand that taping a walkthrough is completely different from filming signal calling during games, don't you?

And you DO understand that taping and analyzing a walkthrough a day or days before a game would be a HUGE scandal not even close to being on par with "Spygate", don't you?

A walkthrough is a slower acting out of the plays.

Playcalling is often cryptic even if you watched or heard it full volume - and is something that the NFL condones

The NFL isn't interested in drawing attention to their pro-signal calling policy but they are very clear in the rule books that it's allowed - they simply clarified in their 2006 memo where it is allowed FROM

(They must have an inkling that there are people out there who 1.) Don't understand why coordinators cover their mouths when calling in plays and 2.) Don't understand the distinction between filming signal calling during the game.)

Spygate was all but over and the players all knew it was much ado about nothing. Allegations that they completely and unabashedly cheated in their first Super Bowl? That allegation was earth shaking and the players knew it and the coaches were forced to spend good portions of Friday and Saturday preparing to answer the league's questions about the allegations amid a media fire storm stoked in part by ESPN.

The players and coaches themselves, while stopping short of blaming their loss on an off field distraction, did acknowledge that it took time away from game preparation - which in fact it did.

Are you beginning to understand the distinction and why continued ignorant statements by even some players stating that the filming of walkthroughs as if a fact is so troubling?

 

[JoeSixPat]

In this case "eavesdropping" means hearing things you weren't supposed to hear, while "spying" means seeing things you weren't supposed to see.

If the Pats had used a parabolic mic to pick up play calls, and the Saints had installed cameras to monitor opposing coaches, the terms probably would be reversed.

No - the analogy doesn't work here. It's not about seeing and hearing - its about being privy to exactly what a team is planning on doing.

When you call in plays you don't say "Brady - throw it to Welker in the slant at the 20 yard line" - any analysis of play calling was for post-game use, to try to interpret cryptic plays of other teams and try to learn their tendencies in future situations.

In the case of overhearing actual strategy sessions the team was planning on employing that game - or watching a slow walk through of a team's primary plays just prior to a big game - would be a HUGE competitive advantage - not even close to on par with a coach's post game review of game tape and attempts to interpret play calling.

I get the feeling there's a lot of confusion about what Spygate was really all about among NFL fans - many Patriots fans included.

 

[JoeSixPat]

If the Saints don't get nailed hard for this, a lot of teams could be installing this stuff very soon. Are there any states that don'e require consent from any party for recording to be legal? I know that most states are two-party required, and some are one-party, but I don't think there are any zero-party states.

No - I think that's illegal everywhere, though it may be akin to getting Al Capone on tax evasion.


its not the aspect that's most damning - it's the huge competitive advantage it would provide - regardless of the lame excuse that an NFL GM wouldn't be able to understand coaches talking strategy.

Still, my gut tells me this is a fabricated story - I'm expecting it will be shown to be false, but I'm more than happy to let the feds and state investigate.

 

[unoriginal]

No - the analogy doesn't work here. It's not about seeing and hearing - its about being privy to exactly what a team is planning on doing.

When you call in plays you don't say "Brady - throw it to Welker in the slant at the 20 yard line" - any analysis of play calling was for post-game use, to try to interpret cryptic plays of other teams and try to learn their tendencies in future situations.

In the case of overhearing actual strategy sessions the team was planning on employing that game - or watching a slow walk through of a team's primary plays just prior to a big game - would be a HUGE competitive advantage - not even close to on par with a coach's post game review of game tape and attempts to interpret play calling.

I get the feeling there's a lot of confusion about what Spygate was really all about among NFL fans - many Patriots fans included.

I am unable to tell where in here you are actually disagreeing with the simple distinction I provided, so I am going to assume, perhaps wrongly, that you, like Koma, find "spying" to be a loaded word compared to "eavesdropping," i.e. one with stronger negative connotations.

I am not stating which of the several real, alleged or merely hypothetical situations described above is morally or ethically worse. I am only stating why the methods of each respective situation suggest the words "spying" and "eavesdropping," depending on whether video or audio devices were used.

 

[crew1954]

If the allegations are true and Loomis did break state and federal laws, I believe the statute of limitations has passed and he will be safe from any criminal prosecution (I think). As for a civil suit however, he would be fair game, presumably from any other NFL teams that were affected and the NFL as an entity. This could get ugly and as I'm watching PTI right now, Kornheiser just called a lifetime ban if it turns out to be true, just saying lol.

In a civil suit he would be fair game? 10+ year old tort claim? what jurisdiction? Feds? Loiusiana?

 

[crew1954]

No - I think that's illegal everywhere, though it may be akin to getting Al Capone on tax evasion.


its not the aspect that's most damning - it's the huge competitive advantage it would provide - regardless of the lame excuse that an NFL GM wouldn't be able to understand coaches talking strategy.

Still, my gut tells me this is a fabricated story - I'm expecting it will be shown to be false, but I'm more than happy to let the feds and state investigate.

Some states, ( Georgia rings a bell) only one party needs to be consenting. But the laws appear to have been written for public phone systems. If your boss eavesdrops on your converation with another employee on the company intercom system, is that a crime? Then what about monitoring email...

The point being that this is not a 'phone line' in the legal sense.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

In a civil suit he would be fair game? 10+ year old tort claim? what jurisdiction? Feds? Loiusiana?

That won't be the issue. The statute of limitations won't effect what Goodell does if the Feds in fact find evidence even though they can't prosecute because of the timeline.

 

[pherein]

The point being that this is not a 'phone line' in the legal sense.

Its a good point. This is more a property manager wiretapping his own communications within his residence thing. The state owns the superdome.

statute of limitations in LA is 6 years, longer than the federal statue, but no way to try anyone for this, and the wiring is all gone so no way to prove it.
You would need a host of eye witnesses to even get it to court, with zero evidence., and the guy that built the last wiring system says this never happened. The FBI would have to find something else to charge loomie with. Maybe a violation of state code? or Vandalizing state property?

Edmonson said he is aware that statutes of limitations — six years under state wiretapping laws — may hinder prosecution but added, “Let’s find out if any laws have been broken first, and that’s what we’re doing right now. It’s up to us to find out facts and get with the district attorney, who will then decide” if the time to prosecute has passed.
The statute of limitations for federal wiretapping crimes is generally five years.

I have to say. I think the the FBI should work alone. Im sure the LSP would more hinder their investigation than help them,lol.

Isn't this more like when you go to a motel, and find out they were video taping your room thing?

I know The NFL has an NFL frequency coordinator who is at every game. He is controlled by the NFL, and he controls the frequency. Which is why they say this is almost impossible to pull off. Granted, unless you have your own couple million dollar circuit system in place thats built to tap into all communications, and to be undetectable. But , then benson would have had to approve that.
Loomie couldn't have that installed on his own.
Benson is more of a spectator. Rita, does football. So, its easy to see why he had no idea about any bounty thing, but he knows everything about his business, and whats built or installed in the superdome.

I think a lot of the media are not thinking about the effort it would take to do this. Loomie didn't pop over to DIY site and set it up the night before,lol. This would have to be in place, with a number of experts involved, and somehow undetectable to the NFL engineers, and electricians hired to work in the super dome. Maybe a separate communication closet built with limited access running of the main power feed. Then they would have to know how to break into the NFL fequenzy each game. Have a taping system in place. Then find a way to relay that to the HC, during or after the game. Because there is no reason to do this if you can't share the information with the HC. So, Ditka, and haslett, would have known. I think a lot of homeowners are thinking this is simple also,lol.

 

[RelocatedPatFan]

Maybe it's time they tell people how much espionage goes on inthe NFL circles or would that drive fans away in droves? Peronally, I'd find it fascinating.

But, if there's espionage, there has to be counter espionage as well. We all see it, but it seems many people think football is a gentleman's sport like golf and that is obviously not the case.

 

[lurker1965]

Pherin,

It has been a while now since the "story" broke. Have the Saints sued yet?

Not legally, but in the modern "trial by media" not responding is an admission of guilt.

Yes, discovery could be a mess and could uncover unrelated and legal, but embarrassing things*; that is not as prominent a thought as "what are you hiding?"

* not to start a rumor, just making up an example - the owner's good for nothing great nephew works as a parking attendant who makes $98,000 per year - not great PR during the Brees negotiation.

 

[crew1954]

That won't be the issue. The statute of limitations won't effect what Goodell does if the Feds in fact find evidence even though they can't prosecute because of the timeline.

If the Feds find it is outside the statute of limitations, they should not continue investigating for Goodells benefit nor should they turn over any evidence to him. They certainly wouldn't do either for you or I.

 

[pherein]

Pherin,

It has been a while now since the "story" broke. Have the Saints sued yet?

Not legally, but in the modern "trial by media" not responding is an admission of guilt.

Yes, discovery could be a mess and could uncover unrelated and legal, but embarrassing things*; that is not as prominent a thought as "what are you hiding?"

Last week there was an article on Loomie and benson seeking counsel to view their options for litigation. No one is going to sue until the investigation is complete. Loomie and just about everyone has called this silly for weeks now. But, most reports are coming from NO, and not reported much by main media, some are.

For those of you who can’t listen to anything at work due to mundane concerns like, you know, job security, here’s a quick summary of what Loomis had to say on the biggest issues currently confronting the Saints.

He flatly denied the allegation that he had the ability to eavesdrop on opposing coaching staffs from 2002 through 2004. He admitted, however, that he previously was able to listen to the Saints’ coaching staff during games.

Loomis also said that he has yet to be contacted by the state and federal authorities who reportedly are exporing the situation. He said that he will cooperate fully if/when asked. ”[Y]es, I welcome that,” Loomis said. ”I welcome an investigation because, again, it is not true.”

Loomis also did not close the door on the possibility of legal action, either against ESPN or whoever it was who made the allegation that an eavesdropping system was in place. ”We are going to explore that,” Loomis said. ”If that is available, then we will pursue it. Loomis claimed that ESPN’s John Barr had been trying to find something negative to report about the Saints since the bounty scandal was disclosed by the NFL.
Loomis also indicated the Saints could pursue possible legal action against ESPN.

"We're going to explore that," he said, "If that's available then we'll pursue it."

Nfl is kind of running a smear campaign on the Saints at the moment. They had 2 headlines a few weeks ago. One was " Arron Rogers says Saints crossed the line". While rogers said later he never mentioned the saints or was referring to us. Same with the other. We are not going to get much of a fair shake on the NFL site,lol.

Wouldn't surprise me if Goodell is even waiting for the draft to end or the investigation , or we think the next new investigation,lol. So that he can see how we draft. Then suspend players to hurt the team the most. Pretty much, except for the players and coaches, everyone is shocked and pissed by the bounty gate , because its something no one knew was a part of football. So this wiretap story got legs it never should have had. I think ESPIN is in a lot of trouble. I also don't think Goodell is finished digging.

 

[Deus Irae]

... I think ESPIN is in a lot of trouble....

Why would ESPN be in trouble?

 

[pherein]

Why would ESPN be in trouble?

Because I can't even think of a way this can be proved in court. I think they are getting sued. If it was just loomie seeking counsel I wouldn't think it was too much, but sense Benson is also its going to be for a lot of money, and probably a front page retraction.

 

[Deus Irae]

Because I can't even think of a way this can be proved in court. I think they are getting sued. If it was just loomie seeking counsel I wouldn't think it was too much, but sense Benson is also its going to be for a lot of money, and probably a from page retraction.

ESPN reported that the prosecutor had been given information. That was correct. ESPN reported that a source was making claims. Are you saying that ESPN lied about having a source?

 

[pherein]

ESPN reported that the prosecutor had been given information. That was correct. ESPN reported that a source was making claims. Are you saying that ESPN lied about having a source?

Yes, I think ESPIN reported the story without checking the source. Just my opinion.
Loomis 'angry' about allegations in ESPN report | wwltv.com New Orleans

loomie not happy,lol

 

[crew1954]

Its a good point. This is more a property manager wiretapping his own communications within his residence thing. The state owns the superdome.

statute of limitations in LA is 6 years, longer than the federal statue, but no way to try anyone for this, and the wiring is all gone so no way to prove it.
You would need a host of eye witnesses to even get it to court, with zero evidence., and the guy that built the last wiring system says this never happened. The FBI would have to find something else to charge loomie with. Maybe a violation of state code? or Vandalizing state property?



I have to say. I think the the FBI should work alone. Im sure the LSP would more hinder their investigation than help them,lol.

Isn't this more like when you go to a motel, and find out they were video taping your room thing? I know The NFL has an NFL frequency coordinator who is at every game. He is controlled by the NFL, and he controls the frequency. Which is why they say this is almost impossible to pull off. Granted, unless you have your own couple million dollar circuit system in place thats built to tap into all communications, and to be undetectable. But , then benson would have had to approve that.
Loomie couldn't have that installed on his own.
Benson is more of a spectator. Rita, does football. So, its easy to see why he had no idea about any bounty thing, but he knows everything about his business, and whats built or installed in the superdome.

I think a lot of the media are not thinking about the effort it would take to do this. Loomie didn't pop over to DIY site and set it up the night before,lol. This would have to be in place, with a number of experts involved, and somehow undetectable to the NFL engineers, and electricians hired to work in the super dome. Maybe a separate communication closet built with limited access running of the main power feed. Then they would have to know how to break into the NFL fequenzy each game. Have a taping system in place. Then find a way to relay that to the HC, during or after the game. Because there is no reason to do this if you can't share the information with the HC. So, Ditka, and haslett, would have known. I think a lot of homeowners are thinking this is simple also,lol.

No. There is an expectation of privacy at the motel. I have to imagine that at any time there are 4-5 spotters, 3-4 asst. coaches up in the booth alone monitoring the dialogue, plus 6-8 coaches and a dozen players.