So. Read that the NFL won this round - what happens now?

[GrogansArmy]

Read an article that basically said that the NFL pretty much won the arguments and that the justices were especially hard on Kessler, and that Kessler lost his cool and became argumentative against the justices. That the justices really found it made no sense for Brady to destroy his cell phone and believed that the evidence of ball tampering was overwhelming.

If I wasn't a conspiracy theorist I'd almost think the NFL paid off the justices. Because who in their right mind (with PHD's no less!) refuses the proof by 95% of scientists that the footballs were in the range they should be for that day's weather conditions??

Gods it makes me so angry! The only scientists that say there was tampering with the pressure of the footballs are the ones PAID by the NFL.

So. It seems the NFL wins this round. What happens next? Does Brady appeal the appeal? Or does he say screw it, the past season proved that I'm still the best QB even when footballs are being measured every 10 minutes?

I think he fights on. I hope he fights on.

 

[SammyBlueCat]

Give them time. Read the "Sally Jenkins" thread.

 

[Gronkowski123]

if brady loses, he has to keep fighting.

don't cave like our useless owner.

 

[GrogansArmy]

if brady loses, he has to keep fighting.

don't cave like our useless owner.

Don't even get me started on Kraft. I am still very upset at him, even though many seem to have forgiven him. I know he's done a lot of good for us, but when the chips were down and he had to choose between "his" fans and the person (Brady) who elevated his franchise to where it is now, he decided to side with the people that want to see him fail. We, nor Brady, matter nothing to him... the only people that he cares about is the ones that want to see him fail.

 

[YOUGOTMOSSED]

Read an article that basically said that the NFL pretty much won the arguments and that the justices were especially hard on Kessler, and that Kessler lost his cool and became argumentative against the justices. That the justices really found it made no sense for Brady to destroy his cell phone and believed that the evidence of ball tampering was overwhelming.

If I wasn't a conspiracy theorist I'd almost think the NFL paid off the justices. Because who in their right mind (with PHD's no less!) refuses the proof by 95% of scientists that the footballs were in the range they should be for that day's weather conditions??

Gods it makes me so angry! The only scientists that say there was tampering with the pressure of the footballs are the ones PAID by the NFL.

And so it seems the NFL wins this round. What happens next? Does Brady appeal the appeal? Or does he say screw it, the past season proved that I'm still the best QB even when footballs are being measured every 10 minutes? I think he fights on. I hope he fights on.

1. It's not a win for the NFL until there's a decision in their favor;

2. If the judges are really stupid enough to rule in favor of the NFL, then thank God that the corruption and stupidity of our legal system has finally been brought to light to the thinking public. Now real/meaningful change can finally happen.

 

[ViperGTS]

To me, Justice Chin should be disbarred for making the statement that he that he did if he rules for the NFL. It's not based in fact and to me is a serious case for an appeal of they do lose.

 

[MassPats38]

Often times, the purpose of oral argument is to get the attorneys to concede points in order to simplify decision writing. These guys are at the top of the game, so what may be interpreted as 'argumentative' may well be an appellate attorney refusing to capitulate.

Appeals are largely cold records, and the individual judges likely have law clerks who have briefed all the issues well before the argument. Short of some appellate attorney caving on important issues, I would not read much into oral argument. Frequently the attorney on the hot seat, and apparently in disfavor during argument, represents the winning side.

 

[supafly]

If the judges are really stupid enough to rule in favor of the NFL, then thank God that the corruption and stupidity of our legal system has finally been brought to light to the thinking public. Now real/meaningful change can finally happen.

There's that insanely over the top fantastical thinking, again.

 

[GrogansArmy]

Often times, the purpose of oral argument is to get the attorneys to concede points in order to simplify decision writing. These guys are at the top of the game, so what may be interpreted as 'argumentative' may well be an appellate attorney refusing to capitulate.

Appeals are largely cold records, and the individual judges likely have law clerks who have briefed all the issues well before the argument. Short of some appellate attorney caving on important issues, I would not read much into oral argument. Frequently the attorney on the hot seat, and apparently in disfavor during argument, represents the winning side.

However, the Justices outright said that Brady cheated: "overwhelming evidence of tampering". There is no conceding of points here. They are convinced Brady tampered. This isn't from the attorneys, this is from the justices themselves.

 

[supafly]

To me, Justice Chin should be disbarred for making the statement that he that he did if he rules for the NFL. It's not based in fact and to me is a serious case for an appeal of they do lose.

What grounds would you appeal that on? The fact that a judge ruled a case on his personal interpretation? That's what he's paid to do. He hears the facts, and makes a determination based on how he sees things.

Unfortunately in this case, it didn't go our way and the text messages/behaviors were seen by him as examples of guilt. That could happen with either of the other 2 judges, and could've happened with Judge Berman just as well.

 

[supafly]

Tanguay claims that he's hearing from sources that the ruling will go to the NFL (naturally). It seems a bit premature to come to that conclusion, but here's the link in case anyone wishes to view it:

Tanguay: Hearing Brady suspension could be upheld

 

[ViperGTS]

What grounds would you appeal that on? The fact that a judge ruled a case on his personal interpretation? That's what he's paid to do. He hears the facts, and makes a determination based on how he sees things.

Unfortunately in this case, it didn't go our way and the text messages/behaviors were seen by him as examples of guilt. That could happen with either of the other 2 judges, and could've happened with Judge Berman just as well.

On grounds of lying and having zero knowledge of the facts? What facts did he have to come up with such a claim? Everyone knows what he said is false. The NFL said as much to Berman in one of the hearings. If you want to rule on procedure and procedure alone fine. Once you open that door to other things, and walk through you better be prepared. This isn't about feelings, it's about the law. Berman found the NFL wrong in its case, which it was. If you are a standard judge I have high expectations for your ability to comprehend clear facts. If you are an appellate judge I have an extremely high bar set for you.

The problem with the text messages is they aren't from the AFCCG, which Berman correctly identified. I'm not a lawyer (thinking about it though) and I would have never, ever stated that in court. Ever. I would have read the Berman ruling, transcripts from hearings and find the truth in the pages. It's not a good look when a judge states the opposite of what the NFL itself posited.

 

[supafly]

On grounds of lying and having zero knowledge of the facts? What facts did he have to come up with such a claim? Everyone knows what he said is false. The NFL said as much to Berman in one of the hearings. If you want to rule on procedure and procedure alone fine. Once you open that door to other things, and walk through you better be prepared. This isn't about feelings, it's about the law. Berman found the NFL wrong in its case, which it was. If you are a standard judge I have high expectations for your ability to comprehend clear facts. If you are an appellate judge I have an extremely high bar set for you.

The problem with the text messages is they aren't from the AFCCG, which Berman correctly identified. I'm not a lawyer (thinking about it though) and I would have never, ever stated that in court. Ever. I would have read the Berman ruling, transcripts from hearings and find the truth in the pages. It's not a good look when a judge states the opposite of what the NFL itself posited.

If the comment that Chin made regarding the "overwhelming" evidence suggesting that Brady tampered with or had knowledge of the balls is what you're speaking of (and I assume that it is), I don't understand how you can claim that the NFL took the opposite stance? That's obviously been their main claim the entire time.

As far as him "lying and having zero knowledge of the facts," he's more than welcome to come up with his own take on things, so it's far from lying, and the "facts" are debatable in any case that goes to court. That's why there are judges in the first place. He apparently feels as though there was enough to make that comment, right or wrong. It may be an incorrect interpretation (and we all think that it is), but that's how he feels, and he's in a position of power to make what he deems as an informed opinion.

People were happy when Berman took the bigger picture into account when he made his ruling, so we should expect the same standard to be applied. Unfortunately, Chin saw things differently. Hopefully, his opinion isn't contagious.

 

[ViperGTS]

If the comment that Chin made regarding the "overwhelming" evidence suggesting that Brady tampered with the balls is what you're speaking of (and I assume that it is), I don't understand how you can claim that the NFL took the opposite stance? That's obviously been their main claim the entire time.

As far as him "lying and having zero knowledge of the facts," he's more than welcome to come up with his own take on things, so it's far from lying, and the "facts" are debatable in any case that goes to court. That's why there are judges in the first place. He apparently feels as though there was enough to make that comment, right or wrong. It may be an incorrect interpretation (and we all think that it is), but that's how he feels, and he's in a position of power to make what he deems as an informed opinion.

People were happy when Berman took the bigger picture into account when he made his ruling, so we should expect the same standard to be applied. Unfortunately, Chin saw things differently. Hopefully, his opinion isn't contagious.

Did Berman not ask Pash of the NFL had direct evidence of Bradys involvement and Pash said no we don't? That's overwhelming evidence had Pash said yes, and proved it. Instead it's far from overwhelming. Any sane person can see it. Those are facts. No other way around it and Berman was smart enough to see it. Which is why he ruled as he did. Not because he wanted to, but because the facts told him to. Even Peter f-ing King has stated that there isn't enough evidence. If Peter King and many others, Stradley etc, feel that way and a federal appellate judge doesn't there is an issue. A major issue. You want to interpret what someone said fine. You can't interpret facts in any other way than just facts.

As John Adams once said, "Facts are very stubborn things". He was a pretty smart guy I think.

I don't need a judge interpreting facts. Heck by saying what he said, he called Berman a moron indirectly.

 

[Todd Bradley]

Tanguay claims that he's hearing from sources that the ruling will go to the NFL (naturally). It seems a bit premature to come to that conclusion, but here's the link in case anyone wishes to view it:

Tanguay: Hearing Brady suspension could be upheld

LOL that's laughable.

Tanguay is the biggest joke in Boston.

Funny how throughout this entire ordeal he's had zero inside knowledge, but now he claims to have a source "in connection" with the case, telling him that not one, not two, but all three judges will rule in favor of the NFL...

Unless he's sleeping with Judge Chin, I think we can throw this story into the recycling bin.

 

[VectorPrime]

When the NFL itself, in their own 5 million dollar 150 page report, comes to the conclusion that "Brady was more likely than not generally aware" then you cannot, in any good faith whatsoever, come to the conclusion that the evidence that Brady is guilty is "overwhelming." And that doesn't even take into account the 8 months of reports and studies that have torn the Wells Report to absolute shreds regarding everything from their bias, their flawed assumptions, their flawed methodology, and ultimately their flawed conclusion. So there is NO defending Chin here. His reasoning cannot have any logical thought behind it.

And even that shouldn't matter because this trial is supposed to be about whether Berman stayed within his legal bounds in his ruling on the NFL's process. We are literally two trials away from the actual case of whether the footballs were deflated or not!

 

[supafly]

Did Berman not ask Pash of the NFL had direct evidence of Bradys involvement and Pash said no we don't? That's overwhelming evidence had Pash said yes, and proved it. Instead it's far from overwhelming. Any sane person can see it. Those are facts. No other way around it and Berman was smart enough to see it. Which is why he ruled as he did. Not because he wanted to, but because the facts told him to. Even Peter f-ing King has stated that there isn't enough evidence. If Peter King and many others, Stradley etc, feel that way and a federal appellate judge doesn't there is an issue. A major issue. You want to interpret what someone said fine. You can't interpret facts in any other way than just facts.

As John Adams once said, "Facts are very stubborn things". He was a pretty smart guy I think.

I don't need a judge interpreting facts. Heck by saying what he said, he called Berman a moron indirectly.

I don't want to go around in circles with you since we seem to have different opinions on this issue, but one judge interpreting things differently than another one isn't exactly earth shattering news. It happens all day, every day, throughout the world.

Berman didn't feel that there was enough evidence to support the idea of Brady knowing about a deflation scheme, yet Chin seems to feel opposite. Any talk about him "lying" or needing to be disbarred seems like quite a leap, particularly outside of the N.England fanbase.

"Facts" are a loosely based term depending on what side of the fence you're on, and is exactly why a judge decides what they choose to take into account, and what they don't. Although we always hope that everything is based on former rulings and current law, there is certainly going to be some form of personal interpretation that goes along with it.

 

[ViperGTS]

When the NFL itself, in their own 5 million dollar 150 page report, comes to the conclusion that "Brady was more likely than not generally aware" then you cannot, in any good faith whatsoever, come to the conclusion that the evidence that Brady is guilty is "overwhelming." And that doesn't even take into account the 8 months of reports and studies that have torn the Wells Report to absolute shreds regarding everything from their bias, their flawed assumptions, their flawed methodology, and ultimately their flawed conclusion. So there is NO defending Chin here. His reasoning cannot have any logical thought behind it.

And even that shouldn't matter because this trial is supposed to be about whether Berman stayed within his legal bounds in his ruling on the NFL's process. We are literally two trials away from the actual case of whether the footballs were deflated or not!

Bingo. There is no defending Chin and his comments should raise the eyebrow of any judicial oversight committee/people he has ruled against. If he's that reckless with something as trivial as this then oh boy. I was stunned when I heard he said that. In a normal world, one of the other Justices would have called a recess to have him checked. Maybe he had an episode or something.

Now we will see how he rules. It may have zero impact. That being said, to have a federal judge of any level state such a thing is troubling at best.

 

[supafly]

When the NFL itself, in their own 5 million dollar 150 page report, comes to the conclusion that "Brady was more likely than not generally aware" then you cannot, in any good faith whatsoever, come to the conclusion that the evidence that Brady is guilty is "overwhelming." And that doesn't even take into account the 8 months of reports and studies that have torn the Wells Report to absolute shreds regarding everything from their bias, their flawed assumptions, their flawed methodology, and ultimately their flawed conclusion. So there is NO defending Chin here. His reasoning cannot have any logical thought behind it.

And even that shouldn't matter because this trial is supposed to be about whether Berman stayed within his legal bounds in his ruling on the NFL's process. We are literally two trials away from the actual case of whether the footballs were deflated or not!

No one is "defending" Chin, but any talk of him "lying" and needing to be disbarred is completely over the top and flat out silly. Those comments are what I responded to, and rightfully so.

He has every right to voice his opinion. After all, his job is to form an opinion based on former/similar rulings, current law, and personal interpretation. That's where the whole "judge" thing comes in.....

 

[ViperGTS]

I don't want to go around in circles with you since we seem to have different opinions on this issue, but one judge interpreting things differently than another one isn't exactly earth shattering news. It happens all day, every day, throughout the world.

Berman didn't feel that there was enough evidence to support the idea of Brady knowing about a deflation scheme, yet Chin seems to feel opposite. Any talk about him "lying" or needing to be disbarred seems like quite a leap, particularly outside of the N.England fanbase.

"Facts" are a loosely based term depending on what side of the fence you're on, and is exactly why a judge decides what they choose to take into account, and what they don't. Although we always hope that everything is based on former rulings and current law, there is certainly going to be some form of personal interpretation that goes along with it.

See Primes post. The facts are indisputable. Berman "Do you have an direct evidence that Brady participated in a scheme to deflate footballs". Pash- "No your Honor we don't".

How is that not a fact? If the NFL says they isn't there isn't. Again it was about the AFCCG. Period. That's what the case is centered around. The texts are irrelevant. The phone is irrelevant. Anything prior to the AFCCG is worthless. There is zero connection to Brady. Zero. Hence the "generally aware".

F-it. I'm taking my GI bill and going to law school. Been waffling for months now and Chin has decided it for me.

Oh and facts can't be interpreted. Hypotheses can, ideas can, thoughts can. Facts are facts. To say otherwise is pure folly