Semi-OT: Tank Gate

[RobertWeathers]

Pronouncing Hue can be way difficult.

 

[BTTA]

If you believe that owners of the top franchises don't try to win, I will leave you to your opinions.

Kraft has had sellouts for his entire ownership period because winning is #1. Winning helps lead the ownership to financial success.

However, as I have said, it arguably helps a team to sit players with minor injuries, especially late in the season. As far as the last game, that is also an argument that goes both ways. However, a team can sit starters because they think it gives them a better chance of winning playoff games.

Owners make money in these businesses primarily through the increase in the value of the franchises. The year to year cash flow that's unique to each team is incidental to that. And the values of the NFL teams has little to do with winning. Of the most valuable franchises, only the Patriots can directly tie their worth to winning in the last 20-30 years. The Jets, Bears, WFT, and Cowboys are worth far more than the Chiefs or Ravens, for example.

Once in a while, lightening strikes, like it did for Tampa in the past couple of years. That franchise is up in value about 25%. But that's not a repeatable business model.

This is from an article in Forbes (a bit out of date on the numbers):

A long playoff run in baseball, hockey or basketball can generate $20-30 million in revenue and 50% profit margins. NFL teams generate a fraction of those revenues and sometimes even lose money during the playoffs as expenses and incentive payouts pile up....

You never hear that talk in the NFL because so little money ends up in the pockets of teams during the playoffs. Of course, there is also the fact that all NFL teams already make money thanks to nearly $5 billion last year in media money from partners like ESPN, NBC, CBS, Fox and Directv.

The overall NFL financial model is a socialist one. The NFL splits revenues evenly among teams from national media and licensing deals like other sports. But the NFL is the only sport that also doles out an equal portion of gate receipts to each team ($17 million last season).

The NFL's socialist model continues in the playoffs. Playoff home teams in baseball, basketball and hockey keep anywhere from 50% to 100% of ticket revenues, depending on the sport and the number of games in the series. In football, all gate receipts flow to the league. The New England Patriots generate more than $10 million in gate receipts for each home game, but don't see a dime of that. Teams get a stipend to cover expenses for each NFL game. Teams also receive money from the NFL to pay players for their participation in the playoffs (contracts only run through the regular season). Each player on last year's Super Bowl winner, the New York Giants, received a total of $172,000 for four playoff games.

 

[sb1]

Can't wait till we see a text message from Kraft telling Bill to play Stidham at the end of 2020

 

[‘Mondre]

Owners make money in these businesses primarily through the increase in the value of the franchises. The year to year cash flow that's unique to each team is incidental to that. And the values of the NFL teams has little to do with winning. Of the most valuable franchises, only the Patriots can directly tie their worth to winning in the last 20-30 years. The Jets, Bears, WFT, and Cowboys are worth far more than the Chiefs or Ravens, for example.

Once in a while, lightening strikes, like it did for Tampa in the past couple of years. That franchise is up in value about 25%. But that's not a repeatable business model.

This is from an article in Forbes (a bit out of date on the numbers):

A long playoff run in baseball, hockey or basketball can generate $20-30 million in revenue and 50% profit margins. NFL teams generate a fraction of those revenues and sometimes even lose money during the playoffs as expenses and incentive payouts pile up....

You never hear that talk in the NFL because so little money ends up in the pockets of teams during the playoffs. Of course, there is also the fact that all NFL teams already make money thanks to nearly $5 billion last year in media money from partners like ESPN, NBC, CBS, Fox and Directv.

The overall NFL financial model is a socialist one. The NFL splits revenues evenly among teams from national media and licensing deals like other sports. But the NFL is the only sport that also doles out an equal portion of gate receipts to each team ($17 million last season).

The NFL's socialist model continues in the playoffs. Playoff home teams in baseball, basketball and hockey keep anywhere from 50% to 100% of ticket revenues, depending on the sport and the number of games in the series. In football, all gate receipts flow to the league. The New England Patriots generate more than $10 million in gate receipts for each home game, but don't see a dime of that. Teams get a stipend to cover expenses for each NFL game. Teams also receive money from the NFL to pay players for their participation in the playoffs (contracts only run through the regular season). Each player on last year's Super Bowl winner, the New York Giants, received a total of $172,000 for four playoff games.

Wait why are we calling this socialist?

 

[‘Mondre]

Also I hate the dolphins almost as much as the jets now.

 

[BTTA]

Wait why are we calling this socialist?

Forbes did. I'm sure it is to them. Horrifying.

 

[fourhour]

In football, all gate receipts flow to the league. The New England Patriots generate more than $10 million in gate receipts for each home game, but don't see a dime of that. Teams get a stipend to cover expenses for each NFL game.

Holy-moley! I'd like to see more info on this, ie; breakdowns, etc. As an example, team A gets $175 for a particular seat and a team B gets $75 for the like seat. Team A loses $50 on the seat and team B gains $50 on it's seat. How do they break up the revenue for leased (municipal owned) stadiums? Luxury boxes?

 

[BTTA]

Also I hate the dolphins almost as much as the jets now.

Its hard to "hate" the Jets. Disgust, pity, having a massive flight response - those are emotions I experience. They are an unnatural creation, something God didn't intend and is equally horrified by as we are.

 

[UrbanCowboy]

Is it in the owner agreement or is there an actual rule or statute that says they have to play to win? Other than the gamblers being pissed, what is the rule being broken by tanking?

 

[venecol]

If Hue was offered money to lose, then he must have received payment. If so, he is guilty of fixing games.
Also if Flores was told he was going to be paid 100,000 for every loss and he lost 11 games, wouldn’t he need to show the 1.1 mill payment to prove his claim?

Why would Flores need to show evidence of payment when he said he turned down the offer. Are you this dumb?

 

[Ring 6]

Why would Flores need to show evidence of payment when he said he turned down the offer. Are you this dumb?

The lawsuit doesn’t say he turned it down.

 

[venecol]

The lawsuit doesn’t say he turned it down.

Flores said he turned it down. Are you disputing that he turned it down? Where's your proof?

 

[venecol]

Meh. I think Hue Jackson was an awful coach. His team would've stunk regardless.

One of the issues is one of the lawyers gives names of people implicating tanking. The problem? Said people weren't associated with the organization at the time. I believe it was Brown & Berry?

That's not what McCourty is saying.

“I was in Cleveland in 2017,” McCourty said on his podcast. “There’s no way we were trying to win. It was very obvious. That is to no surprise to anyone. You don’t need me to corroborate the story and say ‘We were tanking, we were trying to lose.’ Duh. I said this when I got to New England, you realize winning in the NFL is not easy, so you don’t want to take it for granted, you celebrate your wins. But the year I spent in Cleveland also taught me, winning ain’t this hard either. You don’t just go 1-31. It’s not that hard to figure out on the other end of it.”

Jason McCourty: "I was in Cleveland in 2017, there's no way we were trying to win"

Jason McCourty, who played on the 2017 Browns team that went 0-16, believes coach Hue Jackson was speaking the truth when he said owner Jimmy Haslam incentivized him to lose.

profootballtalk.nbcsports.com

 

[Palm Beach Pats Fan]

Losing games on purpose? That doesn't happen in the NFL. Colts in 2011 finished 2-14 and their coaching staff and front office were all fired. There's no incentive to do that for anyone. They didn't lose on purpose. I believe they were really that terrible without an NFL QB and Caldwell at the time was not an NFL level coach.

Unless a team is paid to lose.

Just what if...

Bill Polian was ready to retire. The Colts OWNERSHIP wanted to lose as much as possible to get Luck. The owners talked to Polian and said, "don't retire now, instead help us tank, get us Luck, then we will agree to part ways, and you will get this big pile of money for your trouble. Sure, it will look bad that you went out that way, but we will celebrate you leading us to the SB under Peyton, and besides, just look at this big pile of money!

result: no depth, no backup plan at QB, no restructuring to create cap space, no waiver claims after week 3 (when they were first on the waiver wire, with some cap room, despite Manning dead money), and the inept coach was told to develop young guys...

If the GM is willing to manipulate the roster, tanking happens.

I think that Suck for Luck was REAL, but that the players who played were giving their all, and likely most of the coaches were too..

 

[Ring 6]

Flores said he turned it down. Are you disputing that he turned it down? Where's your proof?

The lawsuit doesn’t say he turned it down.

 

[jimnance]

Putting forth an intentionally crappy roster so draft position is improved is one thing.

Owners providing financial motivation for coaches off the books to make decisions so the likelihood of losing a game(s) is dramatically increased is a criminal offense.

That is the very definition of point shaving.

I'd love to see one of these lowlife fatass owners do actual prison time for this.
But unless its the Patriots, we know that wont happen regardless of what evidence,witnesses etc they find.

 

[RobertWeathers]

I'd love to see one of these lowlife fatass owners do actual prison time for this.
But unless its the Patriots, we know that wont happen regardless of what evidence,witnesses etc they find.

Going back to Mara, Bidwell, Modell, Rooney and even DeBartolo, NFL owners have been involved in gambling and betting on sports.

We have owners such as Kraft, Ross and Jerry Jones investing millions of dollars in online betting/fantasy sports platforms.

Owners believe fantasy football and legalized sportsbooks increase the value of their teams.

Goodell isn't stopping anything.

The more i've thought about it.....Ross isn't going anywhere.

His strategy is an example of where the NFL has always been and has always wanted to be.

A legalized sports gambling enterprise.

 

[Nehalem]

So after reading this thread...

Maybe the solution is to bias revenue sharing based on winning. Basically teams that have a worse record would get a smaller amount of money.

That way teams that legit suck still get high draft picks, to improve, and maintain parity.

But owners probably won't want to suck on purpose if it means they lose $10m or whatever.

 

[Palm Beach Pats Fan]

The lawsuit doesn’t say he turned it down.

Here is a direct quote from the filing, with bolding added by me.

Over the remaining year and a half of Mr. Flores tenure at the helm of the Miami Dolphins, he was routinely made to feel uncomfortable based upon his decision not tank in order to secure the top pick in the 2019 draft.

So, technically, it doesn't say whether or not he accepted 100K for each loss. But that would be completgely inconsistent with the assertion that he decided not to tank.

Brian Flores isn’t the only NFL coach offered a tanking bounty by an owner

Brian Flores exposed NFL owners offering bounties for tanking, and he’s not the only coach who was asked to do it.

www.sbnation.com

 

[venecol]

Here is a direct quote from the filing, with bolding added by me.

Over the remaining year and a half of Mr. Flores tenure at the helm of the Miami Dolphins, he was routinely made to feel uncomfortable based upon his decision not tank in order to secure the top pick in the 2019 draft.

So, technically, it doesn't say whether or not he accepted 100K for each loss. But that would be completgely inconsistent with the assertion that he decided not to tank.

Brian Flores isn’t the only NFL coach offered a tanking bounty by an owner

Brian Flores exposed NFL owners offering bounties for tanking, and he’s not the only coach who was asked to do it.

www.sbnation.com

The purported basis for his termination was alleged poor collaboration,” Flores’s lawsuit says. “In reality, the writing had been on the wall since Mr. Flores’ first season as Head Coach of the Dolphins, when he refused his owner’s directive to ‘tank’ for the first pick in the draft. Indeed, during the 2019 season, Miami’s owner, Stephen Ross, told Mr. Flores that he would pay him $100,000 for every loss, and the team’s General Manager, Chris Grier, told Mr. Flores that ‘Steve’ was ‘mad’ that Mr. Flores’ success in winning games that year was ‘compromising [the team’s] draft position.’ ”