Schefter: Trent Brown 4 years $66 million with Oakland

[Deus Irae]

Since I'm the only one backing anything up with facts, here's another one:
Pats ranked #2 in the NFL ( tied) for best interior pressure allowed.
That's a direct reflection on Thuney, Andrews and Mason.
Those 3 were the REAL strength of our ol( along with Scar,of course).
The 2 tackles were the weakest links.
Still waiting for someone else to post facts.
Crickets.

You cite a ranking that doesn't evaluate the individuals, making it meaningless in context, and that can often be misleading anyway.

 

[jimnance]

You cite a ranking that doesn't evaluate the individuals, making it meaningless in context, and that can often be misleading anyway.

Would you agree Brown had little or nothing to do with the Pats stopping interior pressure?
The PBWR stats are what count for individuals.
They show Brown was the worst of the 5 ol starters at holding his blocks.
Nuff said.

 

[Deus Irae]

Would you agree Brown had little or nothing to do with the Pats stopping interior pressure?

Not without going back to look at how the OL was designing it plays, or hearing from Scar on the subject.

The PBWR stats are what count for individuals.
They show Brown was the worst of the 5 ol starters at holding his blocks.
Nuff said.

I think, perhaps, you don't understand what "Nuff said" means. OL play is dependent play. Without focusing in on that, we can guess as to better/worse, but we can't be sure unless it's an Orlando Pace v. Bob the stiff sort of match.

Matt Light was a good LT overall, for example, but he struggled against certain players, and that sometimes led to him getting help that wouldn't ordinarily be there, which would have put other players in different positions.

Without a breakdown on things like that, we're left with questions like "If Brown was as bad as JimNance says he was, how come Thuney was able to play cleaner this year than last, when Solder was at LT?"

 

[jimnance]

I don't necessarily agree or disagree with your list, but it's clearly opinion, not factual and obviously not indisputable. There's not even a valid way of cross-referencing for comparisons. Just for an example that nobody probably saw coming this season:

How does one evaluate Gronk, with his missed games and his bad games, as being better than Brown over the course of the season? What metrics are there to come close to proving that?

Well of course, that's opinion.

So was what Brady WTF posted " brown top 10 Patriot". Lol. IDs say indisputably my opinion is way more valid and much wider held than his.
Brown was good for 2 or 3 games all year. Granted, he saved his best for the SB .
So did Gronk. Gronk was dealing with ankle and back issues all year. Got healthy by end of reg. season.id still say he was a much bigger factor than brown,overall.
Matter of fact, my opinion is among Patriots starters, only Shelton and brown were as bad or worse. Cannon on was almost as bad.

 

[jimnance]

Btw, I would've liked to see Brown back.
Obviously if the price were right.
He has big potential. It's just not fully realized yet. I thought that with Scar and excellent players around him, he would reach some of that potential. He was big in the SB.
But the ol is one of the 2 strongest units, along with the secondary, so they can lose brown and sill be very good, with a potential young stud to replace him. I still would've preferred brown stayed, tho. Let Wynn work his way back. I think if brown was back wed see improvement and more consistency from him. But it is what it is.
Deus, are you seriously agreeing with Brady WTF that brown was one of the 10 best Patriots last year? Don't answer.
I know you don't.
All I was doing was responding to his asinine statement. Had nothing to do with being a homer.

 

[Deus Irae]

Well of course, that's opinion.

So was what Brady WTF posted " brown top 10 Patriot". Lol. IDs say indisputably my opinion is way more valid and much wider held than his.
Brown was good for 2 or 3 games all year. Granted, he saved his best for the SB .
So did Gronk. Gronk was dealing with ankle and back issues all year. Got healthy by end of reg. season.id still say he was a much bigger factor than brown,overall.
Matter of fact, my opinion is among Patriots starters, only Shelton and brown were as bad or worse. Cannon on was almost as bad.

2017 Brady sacked 35 times
2018 Brady sacked 21 times

Attempt difference was just 11 passes

So what was the impact of Trent Brown? How good was he? How much help, schematically and physically, did he need? Was he the key to the improvent? Was his play better/same/worse than his numbers would indicate? And what of the others? How would we answer those questions for them?

The answers to the above questions are things that neither of us have, because neither you nor I have delved deeply enough into this year's tape to even offer a solidly backed opinion, and neither of us has had it demonstrated to us by someone who would know. The difference between us here is that I acknowledged, a couple of years ago, that I would no longer be doing such in depth analysis, so I'm not pretending to have the answers.

You were doing just that, and you were slamming on Brown (comparatively speaking) in the process. That was silly and embarrassing, as I saw it, so I pointed it out. You've doubled down, absolutely unconvincingly IMO, and we appear to be at an impasse. Let's just leave it there.

 

[Froob]

I could see us going tackle again in round one, would be a lot of groans but Cannon may not have many years left (could be one concussion away from being done) and Wynn off the Achilles injury of course.

 

[TBR]

Not sure what Gruden/Mayock are doing. They're spending an insane amount of money on offense.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Wow.
You really have no clue what you're talking about.
Anyone who's a serious NFL fan could plainly see the other 4 ol were better than brown, tho Cannon,just barely.

So you started by talking about how some objective third party had them ranked as better than Brown, then when called on it you immediately backtrack to your standard, ******ed "anyone who's a serious NFL fan can plainly see it" ********. Which directly translates to "I was pulling this out of my ass and didn't expect to get called on it."

Mason, Thuney and Andrews were head and shoulders better. That's what I saw. That's also what any number of credible analysts saw as well. That's what most knowledgeable posters here saw all season . I don't include you there,obviously.

Name some. You keep falling back on "LOOK EVERY EXPERT AGREES WITH ME", yet it's pretty telling that you can't ****ing name any.

I don't put much stock in pff, but that's what they saw.

uhh... no it's not. PFF rankings of the Pats' starters:
Brown: 71.0 (above average)
Thuney: 73.3 (above average)
Andrews: 73.3 (above average)
Mason: 85.0 (good)
Cannon: 72.8 (above average)

So in short, PFF concluded that Mason was clearly the best lineman, and everyone else was basically equivalent, putting up near-identical success rates with Brown playing the most demanding position of any of them. PFF concluded the exact ****ing opposite of your initial, colossally stupid claim: that Brown was easily the worst starting lineman and one of the worst LTs in the league.

What I DO put stock in , is what is considered by most to be the most credible stat for ol, since they're just not a lot of stats for ol: PBWR. I'm sure with your very limited knowledge, you have no idea what that is.

Are you serious? PBWR is an ESPN-created stat. How much of a know-nothing, wannabe poser dipshit do you have to be to act like you've discovered some cool, underground source of knowledge that only the experts are privy to... and it's something that ESPN created last year.

Pass Block Win Rate. It records how long an ol holds a block vs. a defender. Wouldn't you agree that's arguably the single most important stat for any ol?

It's part of the equation, sure. But like pretty much every attempt to quantify OL performance in absolute terms, it takes some part of the equation and misrepresents it as the whole thing, leading to a fatally flawed stat that produces results so objectively stupid that only an idiot like you would swear by them.

For example, according to PBWR, 37-year-old Cameron Wake was the third best edge rusher in the league in 2018. And Brian Bulaga was the 2nd best tackle. Both of these rankings are so clearly not reflective of reality that pretty much any conclusion reached by this metric is inherently suspect without a great deal of further outside support. I don't like PFF much either, but PFF's rankings are better than this, which isn't surprising because every time ESPN tries to invent a new stat they always fail miserably.

These are the same guys who invented a QB stat that ranked Case Keenum ahead of Tom Brady in his MVP 2017 season. If you want to take them as an authority on much of anything then it's your god-given right to be a clueless jackass, but you'd better believe you're going to be called out for it.

Shaq Mason and Joe Thuney were both top 10 in the NFL among ALL ol, including tackles. Andrews was above average. Cannon was slightly below average. Brown was WAY below average.
Case closed.
Ok, Ive presented some actual facts.

No, you've lied again. Here are the final PBWR rankings for the season: NFL pass-blocking, pass-rushing final leaderboard: PBWR, PRWR rankings

You just claimed that Mason and Thuney were top 10 in all offensive linemen, but there is a top-10 list for guards right... and Thuney isn't on it. Mason is 6th among guards, and well outside the top 10 overall. So you made two direct, factual claims that don't require an ESPN Insider subscription to disprove, and I proved them both ******** with a 10 second google search. Par for the course with you, moron.

What you got? Anything?
Please show me anything from any source anywhere, even an opinion, from any analyst that shows brown was an above-average lt. He was below average.
I don't really expect a response.

Well, you just cited PFF in your own post and, like a ******, claimed they agreed with you. So I'll point you right back to one of your very own sources: PFF ranked Brown as above-avearge: Trent Brown | New England Patriots LT | NFL and PFF stats | Pro Football Focus

Also, in 2017 Von Miller called Brown the best RT in the NFL, but what the hell would he know about anything. Clearly he's not an expert like you: Von Miller calls 49ers’ Trent Brown 'the best right tackle in the NFL’

I don't even have to dispute this **** anymore because anyone with a brain who watches the games and reads a post like this will immediately recognize that how stupid you are.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Since I'm the only one backing anything up with facts, here's another one:
Pats ranked #2 in the NFL ( tied) for best interior pressure allowed.
That's a direct reflection on Thuney, Andrews and Mason.
Those 3 were the REAL strength of our ol( along with Scar,of course).
The 2 tackles were the weakest links.
Still waiting for someone else to post facts.
Crickets.

The fact that you think it's that simple is further proof, if any was needed, that you're in way over your head. All this inherently means is that the Patriots understand that, with Brady being their QB, priority #1 at all times must be to stop interior pressure. Even if it means giving up more edge pressure, that's fine because the ball will usually be out within 2 seconds anyway. As a result, you'd be more inclined to leave your tackles on an island with challenging matchups and little support behind them, since even on the pretty rare occasions that they get beaten you're far less likely to be punished for it. And having said that, everyone here agrees that Mason is by far the Pats' best lineman, so you're arguing for a point that nobody disagreed with in the first place. The offensive line had no weak links, you'd maybe have a point if I was trying to argue that Andrews and Thuney suck or something, but nobody claimed that.

But probably the biggest point you're missing here is that LT is simply the hardest position to play. Even if Brown is succeeding slightly less often than some of the other guys at whatever metric we're using today, you've just completely ignored the fact that on any given snap Brown typically had the hardest job of any of them. If your left tackle is 'succeeding' nearly as often as your C, RT and LG, then he's a better, more valuable football player than your C, RT and LG. All responsibilities are not created equal. He's executing harder assignments against better players.

 

[jimnance]

So you started by talking about how some objective third party had them ranked as better than Brown, then when called on it you immediately backtrack to your standard, ******ed "anyone who's a serious NFL fan can plainly see it" ********. Which directly translates to "I was pulling this out of my ass and didn't expect to get called on it."



Name some. You keep falling back on "LOOK EVERY EXPERT AGREES WITH ME", yet it's pretty telling that you can't ****ing name any.



uhh... no it's not. PFF rankings of the Pats' starters:
Brown: 71.0 (above average)
Thuney: 73.3 (above average)
Andrews: 73.3 (above average)
Mason: 85.0 (good)
Cannon: 72.8 (above average)

So in short, PFF concluded that Mason was clearly the best lineman, and everyone else was basically equivalent, putting up near-identical success rates with Brown playing the most demanding position of any of them. PFF concluded the exact ****ing opposite of your initial, colossally stupid claim: that Brown was easily the worst starting lineman and one of the worst LTs in the league.



Are you serious? PBWR is an ESPN-created stat. How much of a know-nothing, wannabe poser dipshit do you have to be to act like you've discovered some cool, underground source of knowledge that only the experts are privy to... and it's something that ESPN created last year.



It's part of the equation, sure. But like pretty much every attempt to quantify OL performance in absolute terms, it takes some part of the equation and misrepresents it as the whole thing, leading to a fatally flawed stat that produces results so objectively stupid that only an idiot like you would swear by them.

For example, according to PBWR, 37-year-old Cameron Wake was the third best edge rusher in the league in 2018. And Brian Bulaga was the 2nd best tackle. Both of these rankings are so clearly not reflective of reality that pretty much any conclusion reached by this metric is inherently suspect without a great deal of further outside support. I don't like PFF much either, but PFF's rankings are better than this, which isn't surprising because every time ESPN tries to invent a new stat they always fail miserably.

These are the same guys who invented a QB stat that ranked Case Keenum ahead of Tom Brady in his MVP 2017 season. If you want to take them as an authority on much of anything then it's your god-given right to be a clueless jackass, but you'd better believe you're going to be called out for it.



No, you've lied again. Here are the final PBWR rankings for the season: NFL pass-blocking, pass-rushing final leaderboard: PBWR, PRWR rankings

You just claimed that Mason and Thuney were top 10 in all offensive linemen, but there is a top-10 list for guards right... and Thuney isn't on it. Mason is 6th among guards, and well outside the top 10 overall. So you made two direct, factual claims that don't require an ESPN Insider subscription to disprove, and I proved them both ******** with a 10 second google search. Par for the course with you, moron.



Well, you just cited PFF in your own post and, like a ******, claimed they agreed with you. So I'll point you right back to one of your very own sources: PFF ranked Brown as above-avearge: Trent Brown | New England Patriots LT | NFL and PFF stats | Pro Football Focus

Also, in 2017 Von Miller called Brown the best RT in the NFL, but what the hell would he know about anything. Clearly he's not an expert like you: Von Miller calls 49ers’ Trent Brown 'the best right tackle in the NFL’

Pff, who you claim is the best source, ranked brown as the WORST starting ol on the Patriots.
That alone, disproves your asinine statement that " brown was one of the 10 best Patriots " last year.
That's ALL I was responding to. Everything else you posted is strawman.
So brown has 4 Pats ol ahead of him.
Brady, Edelman, michel, white ,Gronk put him at #10. Flowers, Gilmore,KVN, Jackson, both mccourtys, Chung and hightower put him at # 19.
Sorry, pal, but PBWR has a TON more credibility than pff,lol.
It's a next gen stat. Not just on ESPN. Also on NFL.com. And are you disagreeing that how long an ol holds a block is important?
Pats ol was better at stopping interior vs. edge pressure. That's a direct reflection of the interior ol being better at passblocking than the tackles.
Yes, ol is a unit. They function together.
There are times they slide over and times they have a moving pocket. So there are times brown helps with interior pressure. But that's once in a great while.

 

[jimnance]

Btw, what you said about LTS is true for most, not all, NFL teams.
Not true for the Patriots.
Brady handles edge pressure, which is primarily a tackle responsibility, better than just about anyone.
Like most pocket QBs, his problems come from interior pressure. That's mostly the responsibility of guards and center.
I have seen numerous rewatch threads by respected analysts like Lazar, showing how much Thuney helped Brown. Not vice versa.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Pff, who you claim is the best source, ranked brown as the WORST starting ol on the Patriots.

I didn't claim PFF was the best source. I don't even like PFF, and have been very critical of it over the years. Yet another lie by you. But you insisted on bringing it into the discussion despite the fact that it says the exact opposite of what you claim.

In the very same post where you cited PFF, you also claimed that it was impossible to find any analysis backing up that Brown was an above-average tackle, so I pointed out that the very same source that you had cited said exactly that.

That alone, disproves your asinine statement that " brown was one of the 10 best Patriots " last year.
That's ALL I was responding to. Everything else you posted is strawman.
So brown has 4 Pats ol ahead of him.

I thought this was pretty simple, but since you've clearly got very little brain to work with I'll handhold you through it: LT is the most important position on the offensive line. An above average LT is worth more than an above average LG, C, or RT.

Ryan Allen ranks higher among punters than Sony Michel does among RBs, but nobody in their right mind is going to argue that Allen is more important to the team than Michel. Same basic principle.

Brady, Edelman, michel, white ,Gronk put him at #10. Flowers, Gilmore,KVN, Jackson, both mccourtys, Chung and hightower put him at # 19.

If you think Gronk, Hightower, Jackson and Jason McCourty were more important to the 2018 Pats than Brown, then you've re-set the bar--yet again--on how much dumb **** a single person can cram into one post. That's every bit as stupid as claiming he was our fifth most valuable OL.

Sorry, pal, but PBWR has a TON more credibility than pff,lol.
It's a next gen stat. Not just on ESPN. Also on NFL.com. And are you disagreeing that how long an ol holds a block is important?

I'm vetting the source. Of course how long a lineman holds his block is important, but applying an arbitrary cutoff with zero regard whatsoever for assignment or matchups does not yield a necessarily meaningful measurement.

QBR also was invented by ESPN as an 'objective' measurement of performance that innovates by ignoring literally any and all context, and it says Case Keenum was better than Brady in 2017 when Brady won MVP. Do you think Case Keenum was better than Brady in 2017? Until further notice, it can be reasonably assumed that you believe Case Keenum > Tom Brady, since that's what ESPN's advanced, objective statistic said and you've made it clear that this is all that matters. What an idiot you are, thinking Case Keenum is better than Tom Brady. You should be ashamed of yourself for believing such stupid things.

The exact same stat that you're using also claims that 37-year-old Cameron Wake was a top 3 edge rusher in the NFL this year. It's a deeply flawed stat and you're dumb if you don't take it with a huge grain of salt.

And having said that, you already lied about how it ranked Thuney and Mason and I caught you in that lie, so until you show proof that it ranked Brown as one of the worst tackles in the league I'm going to carry on assuming that you're full of **** with that claim too and I'll almost certainly be right.

Pats ol was better at stopping interior vs. edge pressure. That's a direct reflection of the interior ol being better at passblocking than the tackles.
Yes, I'll is a unit. They function together.
There are times they slide over and times they have a moving pocket. So there are times brown helps with interior pressure. But that's once in a great while.

No, it's not once in a great while, and this level of 'analysis' is further proof that you're a moron. Either way, I'm done feeding the troll here. You won't be getting any more responses from me.

 

[supafly]

I could see us going tackle again in round one, would be a lot of groans but Cannon may not have many years left (could be one concussion away from being done) and Wynn off the Achilles injury of course.

I’d be perfectly fine with a first round OT, as long as they use most of their seconds and thirds to address the other needs. Can’t have enough quality OL.

 

[Froob]

I’d be perfectly fine with a first round OT, as long as they use most of their seconds and thirds to address the other needs. Can’t have enough quality OL.

Especially fine with it given our OL drafting record. Pats twitter will freak when we don’t take a wide receiver lol.

 

[TheRainMaker]

This argument over Trent Brown is getting hilarious.

 

[jimnance]

Qbr is a garbage "stat".
Ol play is very hard to quantify, as they are all dependent on each other.
That being said, PBWR is the best single individual stat anyone's come up with.
But like all stats, it needs to be taken in context.
For some of that context, I look at guys like Lazar, who break down plays. Most of what he's shown about brown all year was negative and that was putting it in the context of the play.
W/o hearing from Scar we're never going to know 100% what everyone's responsibility is, but Lazar does a pretty good job at figuring it out.
Since youre putting brown as one of the 10 best Patriots last year,id like to see your top 10 list.
I posted mine.
Let's see yours.
Would be good for a chuckle.

 

[slam]

This Sportrac Link lists what every team spent on their offensive line last season total, from starters to backups. Please note that the yearly average of Trent Brown's new contract of $16.5 million ALONE would have been good for 27th place, just behind... the 2018 New England Patriots total of $17.25 million.

 

[Betterthanmost]

Jamie Collins next?

I feel he may land in Detroit.

 

[Angelpats]

2017 Brady sacked 35 times
2018 Brady sacked 21 times

Attempt difference was just 11 passes

So what was the impact of Trent Brown? How good was he? How much help, schematically and physically, did he need? Was he the key to the improvent? Was his play better/same/worse than his numbers would indicate? And what of the others? How would we answer those questions for them?

So many factors come Into play when talking sack numbers. We didn’t have Edelman in 2017 so Brady held the ball too long on all those deep routes we kept on running. It was a problem this past year too until Edelman finally came back and gave Brady the quick release we needed.