Replace Veritek?

[VJCPatriot]

It's like the emperor has no clothes... but nobody wants to mention it. When are we going to replace Tek? The guy's bat has gone from a wiffle bat to a limp noodle. That one nostalgic blast in game 6 isn't going to change the fact that he was 0 for in the rest of the playoffs. We gonna get younger at catcher or what??

 

[WhiskeyBreath]

It's Varitek.

There are rumors of them acquiring a young catcher from Texas but even if they do that I don't think they could go into the season with a rookie catcher starting full time. I would like to see him back for another season.

 

[patsfanofNC12]

I would like to see him back for a year, and us also get a young catcher to have taught by Tek this year so we can go without Tek the next year.

 

[lostjumper]

Boras has started off negotiations by asking for Posada money, 4 years 52 million. This is despite the fact that Posada hit .100 points higher in BA with 15 more HR in his contract year. This is also after Posada couldn't catch this year, had to be moved to DH, and most think that contract was a mistake. Boras does not see Varitek's declining offense as a problem, as tek spends 70% of his time working with the pitchers.

 

[VJCPatriot]

LOL if Tek deserves Posada money, then the damn Yankees should sign him to another Posada contract and get stuck with TWO worn out over the hill catchers at absurd salaries!!

 

[maverick4]

Veritek is a free agent who is going to want too much money if he keeps Boras for his negotiations.

Time for some new blood.

Thanks Tek, will always think of you well, just like Pedro, Manny, and the rest of the core

 

[Real World]

I read some rumor mill stuff that said he was tagging Heidi Watney (why she'd want to tag Tek, as hot as she is, is beyond me), which led to his being divorced, and contributed to his struggles at the plate. My problem with this is that his struggles are a couple of years old.

 

[BradyManny]

I read some rumor mill stuff that said he was tagging Heidi Watney (why she'd want to tag Tek, as hot as she is, is beyond me), which led to his being divorced, and contributed to his struggles at the plate. My problem with this is that his struggles are a couple of years old.

Agreed - Tek has been sucking [offensively] a lot longer than the media gives credit for. He has sucked since the second half of 2005. He batted .301 pre all star that year, .256 after the break.


That's 3.5 seasons of consistent offensive suckiness.

 

[Foley]

Agreed - Tek has been sucking [offensively] a lot longer than the media gives credit for. He has sucked since the second half of 2005. He batted .301 pre all star that year, .256 after the break.


That's 3.5 seasons of consistent offensive suckiness.

He may have had a .256BA after the ASB in 2005, but he also had a .811OPS. A .811OPS is not sucking.

In 2006 he had a .725OPS, which is certainly underwhelming, but for a catcher thats about average. In 2007 he was one of the better offensive catchers in baseball. His .787OPS that year was behind only Posada, Martinez and Martin among qualifying catchers (Mauer was just short of qualifying, but he too would have ranked ahead of Varitek).

This past season, while obviously bad, was more inconsistent than anything else. He had 3 months where his OPS was greater than .800, and 3 months (and the postseason) where his OPS was under .600. The divorce may have had something to do with the roller coaster like nature of the season, but who knows.

Over the past three seasons he has put up a .729OPS, which ranks 11th out of 22 among catchers with 1000+PA over the past 3 years. Pretty much average. This is not to say that they should re-sign him, just that his offense has been far from consistent suckiness over the past 3 years. Its certainly not what he was from 03-05, but catchers on a whole are not great offensive players, and Varitek has been just about average since 2005.

 

[Real World]

OPS is much more important a statistic than is batting average. I think when the dust settles, Tek will resign with the Sox for two years, and somewhere inside the $16-22 million range. Nobody is giving him Posada years, or cash. When he realizes there is no substantial market for him, he'll stick with the Sox. At least that's how I see it.

 

[BradyManny]

He may have had a .256BA after the ASB in 2005, but he also had a .811OPS. A .811OPS is not sucking.

In 2006 he had a .725OPS, which is certainly underwhelming, but for a catcher thats about average. In 2007 he was one of the better offensive catchers in baseball. His .787OPS that year was behind only Posada, Martinez and Martin among qualifying catchers (Mauer was just short of qualifying, but he too would have ranked ahead of Varitek).

This past season, while obviously bad, was more inconsistent than anything else. He had 3 months where his OPS was greater than .800, and 3 months (and the postseason) where his OPS was under .600. The divorce may have had something to do with the roller coaster like nature of the season, but who knows.

Over the past three seasons he has put up a .729OPS, which ranks 11th out of 22 among catchers with 1000+PA over the past 3 years. Pretty much average. This is not to say that they should re-sign him, just that his offense has been far from consistent suckiness over the past 3 years. Its certainly not what he was from 03-05, but catchers on a whole are not great offensive players, and Varitek has been just about average since 2005.

I find OPS an overrated method of detailing offensive production because it arbitrarily combines two statistics, letting one (power, more often than not) hide a weakness in the other. And it combines them without discretion or giving weight to either stat. OPS is like adding up dollars and pesos without doing a conversion.

Sporadic, unpredictable power drives the OPS # up too much, which is what Varitek had that season. He hit .250, but hitting 9 homers in that span redeems his OPS, when in reality it shouldn't.

By comparison, Pedroia had a .869 OPS this season and won the MVP. Is that to say that Varitek's 2005 production compares to Pedroia's season? No, because having watched nearly every games both seasons, I can tell you that Varitek struggled down the stretch that year, and Pedroia truly earned his MVP this season.

And if we're going to give a lot of credence to OPS, his .672 OPS this season isn't making him look too good.

Again, I honestly don't care what #s anyone has in Tek's defense and again b/c he has the occasional power, there might be some redemption to be found - I'd much rather trust my eyes than blindly accept numbers. And my eyes have seen Varitek struggle at the plate consistently since the middle of 2005, with the exception of a few hot streaks that would make his stats look even worse.

 

[BradyManny]

FWIW, I looked up his VORP stats, and this doesn't really help or deny my claims about Tek over the last few years (it might help prove my point that a lot of MLB stats are flawed), but Tek's VORPr (VORP per game) since 2005 (min 100 PA):

2005 - 4th among catchers
2006 - 33rd among catchers
2007 - 10th among catchers
2008 - 35th among catchers

As I said before, 2005's #s are bloated by some sporadic power, and a ridiculously hot first half of the season. Ditto for 07 when he batted .279 pre AS break before falling apart again.

 

[Foley]

I find OPS an overrated method of detailing offensive production because it arbitrarily combines two statistics, letting one (power, more often than not) hide a weakness in the other. And it combines them without discretion or giving weight to either stat. OPS is like adding up dollars and pesos without doing a conversion.

Sporadic, unpredictable power drives the OPS # up too much, which is what Varitek had that season. He hit .250, but hitting 9 homers in that span redeems his OPS, when in reality it shouldn't.

By comparison, Pedroia had a .869 OPS this season and won the MVP. Is that to say that Varitek's 2005 production compares to Pedroia's season? No, because having watched nearly every games both seasons, I can tell you that Varitek struggled down the stretch that year, and Pedroia truly earned his MVP this season.

And if we're going to give a lot of credence to OPS, his .672 OPS this season isn't making him look too good.

Again, I honestly don't care what #s anyone has in Tek's defense and again b/c he has the occasional power, there might be some redemption to be found - I'd much rather trust my eyes than blindly accept numbers. And my eyes have seen Varitek struggle at the plate consistently since the middle of 2005, with the exception of a few hot streaks that would make his stats look even worse.

OPS, like any stat, is flawed and shouldn't be used in a vacuum. You can't tell what type a hitter someone is just by looking at OPS, but it can still tell you if they're good or not. Someone with a .800OPS is a valuable hitter, whether its .330/.470 or .350/.450 or .370/.430. Despite the identical OPS they are still different skill sets, and you can certainly make an argument that one is better than the others, but even the inferior ones in that situation is still represents a valuable hitter.

As far as Varitek in 2005, his SLG actually declined in the second half (which can be completely attributed to an awful month of September), but even with the decline in power he still put up a very good OPS. His OBP from the first half to the second half were identical (and his K/BB improved dramatically in the second half). I'd agree with you if you he had a Mike Jacob like season, where his SLG is fantastic and his OBP is awful, but that wasn't the case for Varitek.

And Pedroia was better in nearly every conceivable offensive statistic (total bases, VORP, extra base hits, K/BB, both OBP and SLG, and pretty much any other one you can look at). So, yeah, it's certainly not comparable.

FWIW, I looked up his VORP stats, and this doesn't really help or deny my claims about Tek over the last few years (it might help prove my point that a lot of MLB stats are flawed), but Tek's VORPr (VORP per game) since 2005 (min 100 PA):

2005 - 4th among catchers
2006 - 33rd among catchers
2007 - 10th among catchers
2008 - 35th among catchers

As I said before, 2005's #s are bloated by some sporadic power, and a ridiculously hot first half of the season. Ditto for 07 when he batted .279 pre AS break before falling apart again.

Considering that 64 catchers met those specifications in 2008, I'm shocked that there were 29 catchers worse than him last year. So according to VORPr, Varitek was about average last year.

And as far as 2005 and 2007, his BA dropped significantly post ASB both seasons, but in both seasons the OBP was identical pre and post ASB. There was a sizable drop in SLG both years (.041 decrease in 2007, .079 in 2005), but I wouldn't call that much of a decrease falling apart, considering that his OBP remained virtually unchanged.

 

[BradyManny]

Considering that 64 catchers met those specifications in 2008, I'm shocked that there were 29 catchers worse than him last year. So according to VORPr, Varitek was about average last year.

Maybe, but how many catchers are getting paid $10 mill a year?

OK, actually I looked it up:

Catcher Salaries: MLB Rumors - MLBTradeRumors.com

So there's 47 catchers on that list - only the top 10 make over mill per year. If we say Varitek is an average catcher, he should be making about 1.1-1.6 million a year. If we're going to say he's the 30th best catcher in the league, he should be making about 900K a year. You see my point. I have no beef with Varitek, I have appreciated his time here, but its time to part ways. I'll agree - we've been spoiled by his production in the past and now have to come to grips with having an average catcher, production wise.

I'd rather just pay 2 million for it instead of 12. Varitek's intangibles aren't worth it to me, his value by the plate is lessened by the fact that Beckett, Lester & Dice-K are the top 3 and are all appear increasingly independent in their pitch calling. Even Lester, who praises Tek the most, was shaking Tek off more and more towards the end of the season.

So bottom line, maybe you're right - Tek does not suck in comparison to MLB catchers. But he also does not deserve to be overpaid by 10 million a year. Save that money for Teixiera, and we can go find about any other catcher and get the same production for a lot less.

 

[Foley]

Maybe, but how many catchers are getting paid $10 mill a year?

OK, actually I looked it up:

Catcher Salaries: MLB Rumors - MLBTradeRumors.com

So there's 47 catchers on that list - only the top 10 make over mill per year. If we say Varitek is an average catcher, he should be making about 1.1-1.6 million a year. If we're going to say he's the 30th best catcher in the league, he should be making about 900K a year. You see my point. I have no beef with Varitek, I have appreciated his time here, but its time to part ways. I'll agree - we've been spoiled by his production in the past and now have to come to grips with having an average catcher, production wise.

I'd rather just pay 2 million for it instead of 12. Varitek's intangibles aren't worth it to me, his value by the plate is lessened by the fact that Beckett, Lester & Dice-K are the top 3 and are all appear increasingly independent in their pitch calling. Even Lester, who praises Tek the most, was shaking Tek off more and more towards the end of the season.

So bottom line, maybe you're right - Tek does not suck in comparison to MLB catchers. But he also does not deserve to be overpaid by 10 million a year. Save that money for Teixiera, and we can go find about any other catcher and get the same production for a lot less.

Of course he was overpaid last year. Especially when you compare him with players yet to reach free agency, as that list is partially comprised of. But the likelihood of getting a catcher for $2M is pretty slim, even if that catcher is below average offensively. Michael Barrett got $3.5M last offseason despite a .653OPS in 2007. Jason Kendall got $4.25M despite a .610OPS. Paul Lo Duca got $5M despite a .689OPS. Yorvit Torrealba got a 2/$7.25M despite a .699OPS. You'd have to go into the Johnny Estrada, Doug Mirabelli, Gary Bennett territory to find someone who got $2M or less.

They could certainly trade for Saltalamacchia or Tegarden, but neither have track records long enough to indicate they can even be an average hitter in 2009. And Saltalamacchia still has questions defensively. I think trading for one of those guys would be a good move if the price was right, but if someone like that is acquired they're going to need a decent backup. Going into a season with a rookie and a Kevin Cash replacement player isn't a sure bet to do anything.

 

[VJCPatriot]

Considering that 64 catchers met those specifications in 2008, I'm shocked that there were 29 catchers worse than him last year. So according to VORPr, Varitek was about average last year.

And as far as 2005 and 2007, his BA dropped significantly post ASB both seasons, but in both seasons the OBP was identical pre and post ASB. There was a sizable drop in SLG both years (.041 decrease in 2007, .079 in 2005), but I wouldn't call that much of a decrease falling apart, considering that his OBP remained virtually unchanged.

There may be 64 catchers in baseball but only 32 are starters. That means according to VORP that Veritek was the worst starting catcher in baseball. So he wouldn't be bad if he were a backup. So what? He wants Jorge Posada money and his VORP indicates that he's a mediocre backup catcher and bottom rung starter? That does not compute. The Red Sox need to get a replacement for Tek lined up asap. Not having an insurance policy in place gives Veritek leverage in negotiations. That's the only reason why Boras can spout off nonsense like Tek deserves Posada money. In reality the only team that can or would pay Teks demands are the Red Sox. I don't see anyone else looking to pay 4/52 for a catcher coming off one of his worst offensive seasons.

 

[Foley]

There may be 64 catchers in baseball but only 32 are starters. That means according to VORP that Veritek was the worst starting catcher in baseball. So he wouldn't be bad if he were a backup. So what?

Not quite. 64 catchers had 100PA last season. Among them, Varitek was 35th. Not all of the ones ahead of him were starters (Ramon Castro, Henry Blanco, John Baker, among others). While not all of the ones behind him were backups (John Buck, Carlos Ruiz, Kenji Johjima, among others). There were several starting catchers worse than Varitek last year. He was awful last year, and I never said otherwise, so there is no reason to point out the obvious that he was terrible.

He wants Jorge Posada money and his VORP indicates that he's a mediocre backup catcher and bottom rung starter? That does not compute. The Red Sox need to get a replacement for Tek lined up asap. Not having an insurance policy in place gives Veritek leverage in negotiations. That's the only reason why Boras can spout off nonsense like Tek deserves Posada money. In reality the only team that can or would pay Teks demands are the Red Sox. I don't see anyone else looking to pay 4/52 for a catcher coming off one of his worst offensive seasons.

If it doesn't compute than you must be unaware of Scott Boras. Boras consistently does stuff like this with his clients. Lowe wants Zito money. Manny wants 6 years. Damon wants 7 years. ARod wants $350M. Its what he does. That doesn't mean he or his client wants or expects that much money, its just that is their initial opening offer. Par for the course for a Boras client. No team would be stupid enough to give Varitek that type of offer. Boras knows this. Varitek knows this. And the Red Sox know this.

 

[Lonny]

OPS is much more important a statistic than is batting average. I think when the dust settles, Tek will resign with the Sox for two years, and somewhere inside the $16-22 million range. Nobody is giving him Posada years, or cash. When he realizes there is no substantial market for him, he'll stick with the Sox. At least that's how I see it.

OPS is indeed more important....And as you said, Tek knows his time is coming..... Lets see what happens!

 

[IcyPatriot]

OPS is indeed more important....And as you said, Tek knows his time is coming..... Lets see what happens!

What he said ... :yeahthat:.