Players and their ridiculous excuses for illegal hits

[BradyFTW!]

Whether or not it was a dirty hit is debatable, but it definitely wasn't an illegal hit. 100% legal

 

[Ozymandias]

Whether or not it was a dirty hit is debatable, but it definitely wasn't an illegal hit. 100% legal

I'm not even sure it would constitute as 'dirty' either. Dirty implies an intent to injury and end a guy's season. The hit looks way worse than it was on Ward's part — I'm sure this already been mentioned ad nauseum — because Rob's leg was planted. From a pure angular perspective, in all likelihood the hit lands at a different area if the leg wasn't planted like it was, and perhaps today we wouldn't even be having this discussion if that had occurred.

Now with that said, Ward's reputation as a dirty player is definitely going to play a role in public perception, but to me that was a clean football play that turned into the worse case scenario. There was nothing 'dirty' about that play.

 

[UK_Pat37]

UK, I respect your opinion, but I'm going to disagree with most of your thread. Football players have been taught for their whole careers how to tackle, from Pop Warner ball and up. Unfortunately, the fundamentals of tackling has been lost, and most people go for the BIG hit to get seen on TV and get noticed. The mantra that, "since we get fined for hitting high, we must hit low" is the biggest load of bull**** I've ever heard. The tackling radius on MOST ballcarriers is quite large (below the chest to the thighs is a big radius), a textbook tackle is done by bending the knees, having your head up, and thrusting your body forward, using your shoulders AND arms to WRAP UP either around the waist or around the thighs. Trust me, you do that, and I don't care if you're 6'7" 260 or bigger, the carrier is going down also. Ward used his comments as a cop out and as an excuse for his lack of talent as a tackler.

BUT, the fundamentals aren't being taught anymore. Because of that, the HIGH hit was created, as well as getting noticed by knocking out an opposing player. ESPN and media are partly to blame. They love showing knockout hits. Now that that is being taken away, the moron mongoloid players think that going low is the only answer. Sure the hit wasn't illegal, was it dirty ? Well, if you purposely throw yourself like a missile with your head AND shoulder pads at someones knees WITHOUT wrapping up, that's up for debate. BUT, most likely those tackles will blow peoples knees out (happened to the TE on Miami also). Ward is saying, "I didn't mean to hurt him", yet his actions caused it, if you didn't mean to hurt someone, aim your tackle higher and wrap up. It's like pointing a gun at someones knee, pulling the trigger, and saying, "I didn't mean to injure his knee". Aim your poor form tackle at someones knee while you are running full speed, most likely you're going to blow that person's knee out.

Also, tackling like Ward did will invariably cause a player to get paralyzed, it's only a matter of time. Poor tackling will cause this, that's why they are teaching the kids "heads up football". But Ward's head was down, and he should consider himself lucky. I will feel bad for the next player this happens to (getting paralyzed), because it will happen, like all the times it's happened since 1990, due to poor tackling.

They've outlawed blocking at the knees, they've outlawed hitting the QB's at the knee....kinda makes me think they should probably outlaw these knee tackles.

On the overall tackling issue you're 100% spot on. I'm a coach myself and we drill it in to the guys over here, just like you do in the states, to see what you hit. Ward could well have done himself some damage...correct. I think you can make big highlight reel hits tackle in the appropriate manner. I myself suffered a serious head injury playing (albeit no fault of anyone's) which stopped me playing, so I am a huge proponent of anything with limits the hits to the head of defenceless players.

However I don't believe it is something that has only just come in to this game. I have been watching since around 1999/2000 and as far back as I remember I've seen those kind of hits...taking players low. Further back I can't vouch for but I'd find it hard to imagine that everyone in the entire history of the NFL prior to the '90s used to wrap up.

It is incredibly tough for defenders like defensive backs. The TEs in the league right now are much bigger and much faster than they have ever been. They're tough to bring down. For me it's just simple logic to take a guy like Gronk low. Ward would have been dragged for extra yardage had he gone around the waist.

Cut blocking is still allowed and I could very easily understand if they tried to outlaw it. Whilst I love the technique when you're in goal line and short yardage situations (as well as for a lineman having trouble with his man), that is certainly dangerous.

 

[I am party]

I'm not even sure it would constitute as 'dirty' either. Dirty implies an intent to injury and end a guy's season. The hit looks way worse than it was on Ward's part — I'm sure this already been mentioned ad nauseum — because Rob's leg was planted. From a pure angular perspective, in all likelihood the hit lands at a different area if the leg wasn't planted like it was, and perhaps today we wouldn't even be having this discussion if that had occurred.

Now with that said, Ward's reputation as a dirty player is definitely going to play a role in public perception, but to me that was a clean football play that turned into the worse case scenario. There was nothing 'dirty' about that play.

Rewatching the game, it looks like Gronk's foot actually wasn't fully planted when he got hit, so he was lucky in that regard. It looked like the hit came a split second before his foot fully planted into the ground. If it had been fully planted, his knee probably would have gotten bent 90 degrees the wrong way like what happened to McGahee back when he was in college. So if you're a glass half full kind of person, you might say Gronk was actually fortunate that it wasn't even worse.

 

[Ivan]

When your opinion is that you are reading the players mind, yes.


No he didn't.


Not even close



No by my standiard YOU don't know if his intent was to injure unless he tells you.
Some unfortunate hits are unfortunate and some are intended. You cannot know which is which unless you are the player who made the hit.
There is a gap as wide as the Grand Canyon between an intnetional dirty hit, and you knowing whether it was an intentional dirty hit, yet you seem to want to be able to make that judgment based on the pisspoor facts at your disposal.




In Meriwhethers case he didn't acknowledge anything, he said if you overlegislate high hits you will get more low hits and the consequences may be worse. Of course he was not extremely eloquent in saying it but that doesnt change what was said.

Andy, any time you deconstruct one of my posts you should not expect a response because I am not even going to bother to read it. It is simply a messageboard tactic for trying to dictate a discussion and i have no interest in it. If you want to respond to something I say and answer my questions i will do the same, otherwise we are just talking past each other, and i have absolutely no interest in the lengthy arguments that take place, i said my piece, you don't agree, and you almost always ignore the questions that are asked back at you, so that's the end of it.

 

[Kontradiction]

Andy, any time you deconstruct one of my posts you should not expect a response because I am not even going to bother to read it. It is simply a messageboard tactic for trying to dictate a discussion and i have no interest in it. If you want to respond to something I say and answer my questions i will do the same, otherwise we are just talking past each other, and i have absolutely no interest in the lengthy arguments that take place, i said my piece, you don't agree, and you almost always ignore the questions that are asked back at you, so that's the end of it.

A "didn't read LOL" GIF would have been funnier.

 

[Joker]

Further back I can't vouch for but I'd find it hard to imagine that everyone in the entire history of the NFL prior to the '90s used to wrap up.

You Tube...do a search for Mel Blount, NFL's Biggest Hits etc. There are thousands of vids showing hits from the 60's, 70's ,80's and 90's.

Pat Fischer,Redskins DB, late 60's into the 70's..an original missile...should be a few clips of his hits. 5'9" , 180 pounds..fearsome hitter

 

[Ring 6]

Andy, any time you deconstruct one of my posts you should not expect a response because I am not even going to bother to read it. It is simply a messageboard tactic for trying to dictate a discussion and i have no interest in it. If you want to respond to something I say and answer my questions i will do the same, otherwise we are just talking past each other, and i have absolutely no interest in the lengthy arguments that take place, i said my piece, you don't agree, and you almost always ignore the questions that are asked back at you, so that's the end of it.

Thats assinine. I 'decontruct' your post to address each and every point you make. It is a means of being clear about exactly which comments of yours my comments are directed at.
As far as I know I answered every real question that you asked. If you think I missed one, let me know.
I think you don't like that you ask loaded questions, and I disagree with them.

 

[PP2]

However I don't believe it is something that has only just come in to this game. I have been watching since around 1999/2000 and as far back as I remember I've seen those kind of hits...taking players low. Further back I can't vouch for but I'd find it hard to imagine that everyone in the entire history of the NFL prior to the '90s used to wrap up.

You Tube...do a search for Mel Blount, NFL's Biggest Hits etc. There are thousands of vids showing hits from the 60's, 70's ,80's and 90's.

Pat Fischer,Redskins DB, late 60's into the 70's..an original missile...should be a few clips of his hits. 5'9" , 180 pounds..fearsome hitter

When the NFL started incorporating those kinds of hits into their highlight reels is when fundamental tackling started to decline. Now players tend to go for that highlight reel type of hit, rather than sound tackling. Just like you see a lot more chest-thumping in the NBA today because that's what shows up in the highlight reels of the previous decade.

It also doesn't help that in the salary cap era, with new rules in effect, and limited practice in pads allowed, that there is very limited opportunities to practice live tackling properly.

Proper fundamental tackling executed with leverage and a smart angle of attack will ALWAYS bring down a player, no matter how big or strong they are, or how small the defender is. Besides, even if the smallest player can only slow down the biggest TE, that still gives the other defenders a chance to catch up.

What most people don't seem to realize about the type of hit Ward gave is that not only is it very dangerous and stupid, but it is also fundamentally the wrong thing to do, because if you had watched the rest of the game, you'd have seen him try that a few times and missing more often than making contact. He totally whiffed on Edelman earlier in the game doing the exact same thing.

 

[Ivan]

Thats assinine. I 'decontruct' your post to address each and every point you make. It is a means of being clear about exactly which comments of yours my comments are directed at.
As far as I know I answered every real question that you asked. If you think I missed one, let me know.
I think you don't like that you ask loaded questions, and I disagree with them.

Again, we disagree. Imo you decontruct posts to parse them and try to dictate the discussion, and as i said if you do it to one of my posts then i will simply ignore it.

I asked a number of questions, none of which you responded to, but the basic question was whether as an athlete you would just stand by and watch as an opposing team took shot after shot at your teammates. I know i wouldn't because i have been in that situation and responded. The "moral high ground" debate you started is much more of a gray area than you acknowledge, and self policing in hockey is a good example of it, and whether you follow hockey or not you are certainly smart enough and knowledgeable enough to understand what that debate is about.

 

[Ivan]

When the NFL started incorporating those kinds of hits into their highlight reels is when fundamental tackling started to decline. Now players tend to go for that highlight reel type of hit, rather than sound tackling. Just like you see a lot more chest-thumping in the NBA today because that's what shows up in the highlight reels of the previous decade.

It also doesn't help that in the salary cap era, with new rules in effect, and limited practice in pads allowed, that there is very limited opportunities to practice live tackling properly.

Proper fundamental tackling executed with leverage and a smart angle of attack will ALWAYS bring down a player, no matter how big or strong they are, or how small the defender is. Besides, even if the smallest player can only slow down the biggest TE, that still gives the other defenders a chance to catch up.

What most people don't seem to realize about the type of hit Ward gave is that not only is it very dangerous and stupid, but it is also fundamentally the wrong thing to do, because if you had watched the rest of the game, you'd have seen him try that a few times and missing more often than making contact. He totally whiffed on Edelman earlier in the game doing the exact same thing.

Agree completely, and I think the earlier post regarding kids following these examples was right on and it will lead to many serious head, neck, and knee issues for young football players if they take the Meriweather and Ward approach of diving at the knees of skill players to bring them down. I think the NFL has gone overboard on the head shots and needs to stop calling fouls for touches and incidental contact but should focus on the cheap shots to the head and neck, and they should do the same with the knee shots. I don't believe that you can outlaw contact with the lower body but you can certainly put big fines and suspensions on the kind of launching at the lknees that Ward did on Sunday and Meriweather promises to do from here on out.

 

[TruthSeeker]

When the NFL started incorporating those kinds of hits into their highlight reels is when fundamental tackling started to decline. Now players tend to go for that highlight reel type of hit, rather than sound tackling. Just like you see a lot more chest-thumping in the NBA today because that's what shows up in the highlight reels of the previous decade.

It also doesn't help that in the salary cap era, with new rules in effect, and limited practice in pads allowed, that there is very limited opportunities to practice live tackling properly.

Proper fundamental tackling executed with leverage and a smart angle of attack will ALWAYS bring down a player, no matter how big or strong they are, or how small the defender is. Besides, even if the smallest player can only slow down the biggest TE, that still gives the other defenders a chance to catch up.

What most people don't seem to realize about the type of hit Ward gave is that not only is it very dangerous and stupid, but it is also fundamentally the wrong thing to do, because if you had watched the rest of the game, you'd have seen him try that a few times and missing more often than making contact. He totally whiffed on Edelman earlier in the game doing the exact same thing.

I wish I could like this post 1000 times. You eloquently said what I've been saying for years (or 20 times in this thread, lol).

 

[Ring 6]

Again, we disagree. Imo you decontruct posts to parse them and try to dictate the discussion, and as i said if you do it to one of my posts then i will simply ignore it.

I told you why I do it. That is the truth, if you choose not to believe me, just put me on ignore.
It is also a heavily used and accepted practice on this forum.

I asked a number of questions, none of which you responded to, but the basic question was whether as an athlete you would just stand by and watch as an opposing team took shot after shot at your teammates

You asked me about a hockey incident and I answered that I don't follow hockey so I don't know what you are referring to.
Of course I would retaliate against dirty play. Thats really a rhetorical question isnt it?
But if I felt what a player was doing was disgusting I would not stoop to his level.
If there are others, ask, and I will answer. There is no trickeration here, I am trying to have a discussion not play to an audience or try to win points.

. I know i wouldn't because i have been in that situation and responded. The "moral high ground" debate you started is much more of a gray area than you acknowledge, and self policing in hockey is a good example of it, and whether you follow hockey or not you are certainly smart enough and knowledgeable enough to understand what that debate is about.

I'm sure I am, but I do not know what the debate is so its hard to discuss it.
The moral high ground issue, IMO, is that if you find what someone does reprehensible but are willing to do it in retaliation, you lose your right to moral indignation. Stooping to the level of what you abhor is not an enlightened response as far as I am concerned.

 

[PatsSweFan]

All defensive players should get a tape of every Patrick Willis tackle during his career, they wouldn't find many illegal hit, low or leading with head. It's all about technique

 

[The_Riddler]

Reminds me of Bobby Wade telling us all that his dirtbag low block on Rodney Harrison was completely cool. SOB killed our Super Bowl chances.

 

[Deus Irae]

All defensive players should get a tape of every Patrick Willis tackle during his career, they wouldn't find many illegal hit, low or leading with head. It's all about technique

I just took your advice and watched a Willis highlight video. While there were plenty of 'form tackles', there were also shoulder tackles, leg dives and head shots.

 

[Ivan]

Reminds me of Bobby Wade telling us all that his dirtbag low block on Rodney Harrison was completely cool. SOB killed our Super Bowl chances.

The irony being that you could not find a Patriot fan who did not think the Wade his wasn't filthy, yet I could not find any record of him being fined or suspended for it, yet many people here have defended the Ward hit as legal and will no doubt use the lack of fine and suspension as proof it was acceptable. I saw that hit repeatedly the past few days and if anything my view that it was a deliberate knee shot and attempt to injure is even stronger now than it was before And Belichick clearly thought it was bullsh.t..

 

[condon84]

All defensive players should get a tape of every Patrick Willis tackle during his career, they wouldn't find many illegal hit, low or leading with head. It's all about technique

Better yet, look at a Jerrod Mayo highlight reel. You will not see him hit anyone illegally or blow people up.

You'll only see him tackle players from behind, five yard past the LOS

 

[Ivan]

Better yet, look at a Jerrod Mayo highlight reel. You will not see him hit anyone illegally or blow people up.

You'll only see him tackle players from behind, five yard past the LOS

That's because he sucks, just like all the other player's on this team.

 

[letekro]

Perhaps my memory is in error, but wasn't Pollard's '08 hit on Brady legal? If not in error, than was it unethical? The following year it was definitely illegal. If I remember correctly, horse collaring was also legal too.

There is room for legal plays to be unethical. This includes the fact that the helmet wasn't involved, still, the player is responsible for the rest of his body. The best case for Ward was that he was lazy and lacked regard for the player being hit but not intending to directly cause injury. That's still negligence. More likely, he was attempting to deliver a big hit.

If a player can't make a tackle on another player without launching, in the close area of the knee, enough to tear it up, then he should admit defeat and allow the player to pass on. In the alternative, he can find another way to tackle. Players are responsible for where their bodies go. Finally, why make it illegal when an unwritten player rule exists to not go for the area of the knees?

The rules are the rules, to the head they exist and they are here to stay, adjust to them without going for the knees. I bet it's illegal next year. It certainly should be.

You really cannot be serious. There is no "ethical" component to tackling. There is legal and there is illegal. Lawyers have ethical obligations to their clients. Doctors have ethical obligations to their patients. Businessmen do not have ethical obligations to businessmen from other companies. Clearly, the relationship between football players on different teams is similar to businessmen, and not lawyer-client or doctor-patient. Like businessmen, players do everything they can to win. In doing so, they have to worry about running afoul of the law, but they certainly don't have to worry about ethics. The idea that, because football takes place on a field, it is less of a business, is quaint and has no relationship to reality.

Ward had a choice: (A) go high and run a (high) risk that Gronkowski would run right through him for a touchdown and/or Ward would incur a penalty or (B) go low, have a good chance at bringing Gronk down without penalty, but run a risk that Gronkowski might be hurt. 100 out of 100 times, Ward has to choose A, because if he doesn't, he is breaking his obligation to his OWN TEAM to use his best efforts to win. Again, he has ZERO obligation to Gronkowski to tackle him one way over the other.

If the NFL wants to cut down on knee injuries, it should institute a strike zone, which would make Ward's hit illegal. Until it does that, Ward and all other defenders can and should continue to go low where the circumstances so indicate.