PATS HOF NOMINEE

[Biffins]

I saw Randy bust his ass when he was here, and I think he treasures his experience here in a more special way than his other stops. But he was here relatively briefly, and he imploded in the end. I didn't see a lack of effort.

I don't see a lack of effort either, I just see a lack of total production since his stay was so brief.

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

What about Larry Izzo? (2x Pro Bowls, 2x First Team All-Pro, 3x Super Bowls, or is Special Teams not sexy enough?) I am assuming Matt Slater (6x Pro Bowls, 4x First Team All-Pro, 2 Super Bowls and counting, and Team Leader) will definitely default in when he retires though.

I agree with you, Biff. The numbers are impressive, but they don't always tell the whole story.

 

[Ivan]

1) Seymour

2) Clayborn

3) Light


They really need to do something about the old guard as they are running headlong into the dynasty players. Clayborn is really deserving but Seymour was the foundation of their dynasty defense, so once again Clayborn comes in 2nd. I think Light was really underrated and the decade plus of protecting Brady wins over the shorter but really productive stints of Moss and Harrison.

 

[jmt57]

I post first to declare my extremely strong belief that Bill Parcells belongs NO where near the Patriot HOF. The very fact that he's continually nominated by his mediot buddies only shows how UNDESERVING he is. He is barely a .50o coach with the Pats and was working hard to get his next job while he was still supposed to be working on this one. It was an ultimate backstab job, and some people want to reward that. IIRC Pete Carroll had a better winning percentage. As a Pats coach, Parcells wasn't even in Chuck Fairbainks' league.

Agree; contrary to popular opinion, Parcells was NOT the 2nd best head coach in Patriots' history. I would definitely place him behind Raymond Berry and Chuck Fairbanks. Maybe give him a slight edge over Ron Meyer. Or maybe not.

Let's compare.

Raymond Berry
All-Time w/Pats: .552 (48-39)
Best Season: 11-5 (.688), AFC champions
2nd best: 11-5 (.688), AFC East title, lost in division round
3rd best: 9-7 (.563), missed playoffs
4th best: 8-7 (.533), missed playoffs
One losing season in six years (.167)

Chuck Fairbanks
All-time w/Pats: .541 (46-39)
Best Season: 11-3 (.786), lost in equivalent to division round
2nd best: 11-4 (.733), AFC East title, lost in division round (blame goes to Billy Sullivan)
3rd best: 9-5 (.643), missed playoffs
4th best: 7-7 (.500), missed playoffs
Two losing seasons in six years (.333)

Mike Holovak
All-Time w/Pats: .531 (52-46-9)
Best Season: 7-1-1 (.875) [replaced Nick Saban, finished 9-4-1, missed playoffs]
2nd best: 10-3-1 (.769), missed playoffs (only 2 teams made playoffs then)
3rd best: 9-4-1 (.692), missed playoffs
4th best: 8-4-2 (.667)
5th best: beat Buffalo for division title, lost in league championship
Three losing seasons in eight years (.375)

Pete Carroll
All-time w/Pats: .563 (27-21)
One division title
Two playoff appearances
Zero losing seasons in three years

Ron Meyer
All-time w/Pats: .507 (36-35)
One playoff appearance
Zero losing seasons in three years

Bill Parcells
All-Time w/Pats: .500 (32-32)
Best season: 11-5 (.688), AFC champions, essentially quit rather than prepare for SB
2nd best: 10-6 (.625), 2nd in division, lost in wild card round
3rd best: 6-10 (.375), 4th in division
4th best: 5-11 (.313), 4th in division
Two losing seasons in four years (.500)

Ron Erhardt
All-time w/Pats: .429 (21-28)
Best Season: 10-6 (.625), 2nd place, missed playoffs
2nd best: 9-7 (.563), 2nd place, missed playoffs
One losing season in three years (.333)



Perhaps you can place Parcells above Carroll and Meyer rather than between Meyer and Erhardt, but that's it. Parcells is no better than the fifth best head coach in Patriot franchise history.

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

a travesty

The death of Julius Adams completely pushed me over the edge.

First, any member of the 1976 New England Patriots should be considered a Super Bowl champion. Anyone who knows about football, was paying attention to everything at the time and is honest with himself will admit this fact.

Second, if there were one single person for me to choose first to enshrine into a legitimate New England Patriots Hall of Fame, it would not be Cappelletti, Morris, Hannah or Brady.

It would be Julius Adams. Numerically, games and years played are the impressive part of his career. On paper.

Life does not happen on paper, if it did, none of us would know today who Tom Brady is.

As someone who invested a lifetime of football watching with the Patriots my emotional priority, on and off the field, and in that locker room, through adversity and injustice and tragedy and media denigration, with the ultimate leadership and unshakeable lifetime loyalty that equals [Bruschi-times-ten-million](and I love Tedy), and out on that field, there is no one in Patriots history above Julius. It is obvious to me.

The ultimate testament to Kraft's disdain for the history of his team isn't the uniforms destruction; it is Julius Adams not being here with us to be properly recognized and honored. As with a lot of things, I have to accept personal responsibility for not becoming involved sooner, and now we can only settle for his son and the rest of his family to meet here in Foxborough, to receive what will always be less than the degree of love and appreciation this man earned and deserves.

 

[Biffins]

Agree; contrary to popular opinion, Parcells was NOT the 2nd best head coach in Patriots' history. I would definitely place him behind Raymond Berry and Chuck Fairbanks. Maybe give him a slight edge over Ron Meyer. Or maybe not.

Let's compare.

Raymond Berry
All-Time w/Pats: .552 (48-39)
Best Season: 11-5 (.688), AFC champions
2nd best: 11-5 (.688), AFC East title, lost in division round
3rd best: 9-7 (.563), missed playoffs
4th best: 8-7 (.533), missed playoffs
One losing season in six years (.167)

Chuck Fairbanks
All-time w/Pats: .541 (46-39)
Best Season: 11-3 (.786), lost in equivalent to division round
2nd best: 11-4 (.733), AFC East title, lost in division round (blame goes to Billy Sullivan)
3rd best: 9-5 (.643), missed playoffs
4th best: 7-7 (.500), missed playoffs
Two losing seasons in six years (.333)

Mike Holovak
All-Time w/Pats: .531 (52-46-9)
Best Season: 7-1-1 (.875) [replaced Nick Saban, finished 9-4-1, missed playoffs]
2nd best: 10-3-1 (.769), missed playoffs (only 2 teams made playoffs then)
3rd best: 9-4-1 (.692), missed playoffs
4th best: 8-4-2 (.667)
5th best: beat Buffalo for division title, lost in league championship
Three losing seasons in eight years (.375)

Pete Carroll
All-time w/Pats: .563 (27-21)
One division title
Two playoff appearances
Zero losing seasons

Ron Meyer
All-time w/Pats: 36-35 (.507)
One playoff appearance
Zero losing seasons

Ron Erhardt
All-time w/Pats: 21-28 (.429)
Best Season: 10-6 (.625), 2nd place, missed playoffs
2nd best: 9-7 (.563), 2nd place, missed playoffs
One losing season in three years (.333)

Bill Parcells
All-Time w/Pats: .500 (32-32)
Best season: 11-5 (.688), AFC champions, essentially quit rather than prepare for SB
2nd best: 10-6 (.625), 2nd in division, lost in wild card round
3rd best: 6-10 (.375), 4th in division
4th best: 5-11 (.313), 4th in division
Two losing seasons in four years (.500)

Pete Carroll seems severely underrated based on these stats. 0 losing seasons and highest win % of all coaches here. And took Pats to playoffs in every year. Why would anyone think Parcells 4 season tenure is better than Carroll's 3 season tenure?

 

[Biffins]

The death of Julius Adams completely pushed me over the edge.

First, any member of the 1976 New England Patriots should be considered a Super Bowl champion. Anyone who knows about football, was paying attention to everything at the time and is honest with himself will admit this fact.

Second, if there were one single person for me to choose first to enshrine into a legitimate New England Patriots Hall of Fame, it would not be Cappelletti, Morris, Hannah or Brady.

It would be Julius Adams. Numerically, games and years played are the impressive part of his career. On paper.

Life does not happen on paper, if it did, none of us would know today who Tom Brady is.

As someone who invested a lifetime of football watching with the Patriots my emotional priority, on and off the field, and in that locker room, through adversity and injustice and tragedy and media denigration, with the ultimate leadership and unshakeable lifetime loyalty that equals [Bruschi-times-ten-million](and I love Tedy), and out on that field, there is no one in Patriots history above Julius. It is obvious to me.

The ultimate testament to Kraft's disdain for the history of his team isn't the uniforms destruction; it is Julius Adams not being here with us to be properly recognized and honored. As with a lot of things, I have to accept personal responsibility for not becoming involved sooner, and now we can only settle for his son and the rest of his family to meet here in Foxborough, to receive what will always be less than the degree of love and appreciation this man earned and deserves.

Come on. I have read plenty about and seen footage of the 76 Pats/Raiders playoff game and how the Pats were cheated out of a win. But that doesn't make them Super Bowl champions. That was a divisional playoff game. You still have to win the AFC Championship and then the actual Super Bowl. That's absurd.

‘Roughing the Passer’: The Patriots-Raiders Game You Should Know About

 

[jmt57]

@Actual Pats Fan

I wouldn't go so far as to say Julius Adams should have gone in first, but I do hear what you're saying. Personally I would reserve that honor for Gino Cappelletti, followed by John Hannah.

It does bother me though that Adams is now the third player (along with Jim Nance and Houston Antwine) that should have been enshrined earlier and sadly passed away first. (If you include Chuck Fairbanks and Mosi Tatupu that makes five Patriot alumni.)

Why wait until after death to honor these people when you can do so when they are still alive? An obituary should not be an impetus for enshrinement. I fear it will be more of the same with guys like Clayborn now in their sixties.

If nothing else bring people like Raymond Berry to Gillette and honor them in a pre-game or halftime ceremony with an anniversary celebration.

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

It's time to find a new format that is not so heavily weighted in favor of recently retired players.

You mean, "way past time..."

My selections, in order:

• Julius Adams - Loyalty, Leadership, Longevity, Everything
• Raymond Clayborn - More of the same, with numbers
• Russ Francis - Better than Gronk and Coates, in his prime here
• Mosi Tatupu - It's 2017. No need to elaborate. It's 2017!!!
• Chuck Fairbanks - His departure is as irrelevant as his hiring was historic
• Prentice McCray - Years of big plays and leadership
• Tim Fox - Ditto
• Fred Marion - Must be one of the all-time underrated Patriots
• Leon Gray - A great player
• Irving Fryar - Should be inducted ahead of Randy Moss

Nothing at all against stars of this century; they deserve to be honored - after their predecessors are. It would be nice to see Lawyer Milloy make it in one day.

 

[jmt57]

Come on. I have read plenty about and seen footage of the 76 Pats/Raiders playoff game and how the Pats were cheated out of a win. But that doesn't make them Super Bowl champions. That was a divisional playoff game. You still have to win the AFC Championship and then the actual Super Bowl. That's absurd.

‘Roughing the Passer’: The Patriots-Raiders Game You Should Know About

While it is true the Patriots would still have to win the next two games, in all likelihood they would have done just that.

Pittsburgh was decimated with injuries and as a result were not competitive in the AFCCG. From the NFC you had the Rams, quarterbacked by Pat Haden. No chance. Minnesota had an over the hill Fran Tarkenton at QB and they were exposed in the Super Bowl as pretenders. Nobody in the NFC at that point of the season was as good as either the Raiders or the Patriots.

The Pats-Raiders game was the defacto championship game of the 1976 season.

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

You still have to win the AFC Championship and then the actual Super Bowl

Don't know if you were around then, but...the Patriots not only had already beaten the Steelers at Three Rivers that season, but the Steelers were crippled by the end of the year; both Harris & Bleier were injured and their defense couldn't do it alone.

The Cowboys would eventually put the NFC back in the win column in the Super Bowl the following season; but the AFC's string of dominance over them was not ending in Super Bowl XI.

 

[Ring 6]

I saw Randy bust his ass when he was here, and I think he treasures his experience here in a more special way than his other stops. But he was here relatively briefly, and he imploded in the end. I didn't see a lack of effort.

Except in the 2010 Jets game when he quit on the team. BB proceeded to freeze him out of the next game then trade him for peanuts.

 

[Biffins]

Don't know if you were around then, but...the Patriots not only had already beaten the Steelers at Three Rivers that season, but the Steelers were crippled by the end of the year; both Harris & Bleier were injured and their defense couldn't do it alone.

The Cowboys would eventually put the NFC back in the win column in the Super Bowl the following season; but the AFC's string of dominance over them was not ending in Super Bowl XI.

And the Pats were 14 point favourites to win Super Bowl XLII. It only counts when you actually win. Rest is conjecture.

 

[Biffins]

• Russ Francis - Better than Gronk and Coates, in his prime here

• Russ Francis - Better than Gronk

• Better than Gronk

BETTER THAN GRONK

OH COME ON! Gronk is going to the NFL HoF, Russ Francis likely won't make Pats HoF. For god sake!!

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

@Actual Pats Fan

I wouldn't go so far as to say Julius Adams should have gone in first, but I do hear what you're saying. Personally I would reserve that honor for Gino Cappelletti, followed by John Hannah.

It does bother me though that Adams is now the third player (along with Jim Nance and Houston Antwine) that should have been enshrined earlier and sadly passed away first. (If you include Chuck Fairbanks and Mosi Tatupu that makes five Patriot alumni.)

Why wait until after death to honor these people when you can do so when they are still alive? An obituary should not be an impetus for enshrinement. I fear it will be more of the same with guys like Clayborn now in their sixties.

If nothing else bring people like Raymond Berry to Gillette and honor them in a pre-game or halftime ceremony with an anniversary celebration.

I love Gino and John. Gino was always a class act all the way. John is as competitively driven as Tom Brady.

Leadership, spirit, inspiration, loyalty - they're kind of intangibles.

If I were putting the 21st century guys in order...it would be very hard to put anyone ahead of Bruschi. Even Tom.

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

OH COME ON! Gronk is going to the NFL HoF, Russ Francis likely won't make Pats HoF. For god sake!!

If you can, take a breath and imagine Tom Brady throwing to Francis.

And Morgan.

Now, exhale.

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

And the Pats were 14 point favourites to win Super Bowl XLII. It only counts when you actually win. Rest is conjecture.

I guess you had to be there.

 

[Biffins]

If you can, take a breath and imagine Tom Brady throwing to Francis.

And Morgan.

Now, exhale.

That's a lot of disrespect to the talent and skill Gronk brings to the game. Brady's numbers, statistics, passer rating, YPC, etc with and without Gronk are well documented. I can just as easily argue Gronk makes Brady better, rather than Brady making Gronk better. If you needed a refresher:

Without Rob Gronkowski, Tom Brady is basically Ryan Fitzpatrick

The hulking tight end has missed 19 games over his career. Tom Brady has started 17 of those games. And over a season’s worth of games, here is his statline:

Comp%: 57.3
Yards/attempts: 6.5
Rating: 82.4

Those numbers would rank 31st, 30th and 27th in the NFL this season, respectively.

Now here are Brady’s numbers when Gronkowski plays:

Comp%: 65.3
Yards/attempts: 7.9
Rating: 103.5.

And Gronk WINS GAMES. Patriots have reached AFC Championship 6 of the last 7 years Gronk has been on the team. And the one year we didn't make the AFC Championship, 2010, Gronk's rookie year, we were 14-2 and Brady was MVP.

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

That's a lot of disrespect to the talent and skill Gronk brings to the game. Brady's numbers, statistics, passer rating, YPC, etc with and without Gronk are well documented. I can just as easily argue Gronk makes Brady better, rather than Brady making Gronk better. If you needed a refresher:

Without Rob Gronkowski, Tom Brady is basically Ryan Fitzpatrick

The hulking tight end has missed 19 games over his career. Tom Brady has started 17 of those games. And over a season’s worth of games, here is his statline:

Comp%: 57.3
Yards/attempts: 6.5
Rating: 82.4

Those numbers would rank 31st, 30th and 27th in the NFL this season, respectively.

Now here are Brady’s numbers when Gronkowski plays:

Comp%: 65.3
Yards/attempts: 7.9
Rating: 103.5.

And Gronk WINS GAMES. Patriots have reached AFC Championship 6 of the last 7 years Gronk has been on the team. And the one year we didn't make the AFC Championship, 2010, Gronk's rookie year, we were 14-2 and Brady was MVP.

Gronk is special...I think he would be a Pro Bowler on any team.

Coates was a tank. He beat up a defense by himself.

It's not an insult to those guys, to say that during his time with the Pats, Francis was better. It's not like it's by a lot, or even more than a whisker.

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

I want Clayborn and Julius Adams in before anyone else. Of course, it won't happen.

Goodness knows that the last 15 years have been football porn for all of us, but I wish the yearly Pats HOF wasn't an automatic *********** for the SB teams.