Patriots GM Search

[Rob0729]

Hmmm, here's one: Jonnu Smith Dealing With Ankle Injury - NFL News | Fantasy Football

2022 is the year that Mac's play went south. That's the year people are blaming Belichick for ruining him.

This year he was toast from the start.

I posted about his horrible play after week 2 against the Phins (although I was impressed by him the following week against the Jets).

Then the stuff he was doing against the Phins became a regularity.

So he limited one Wednesday practice in week 5 and it affected him the rest of the year despite not being on the injury report.

And Mac was not toast from the start. He played pretty well the first three weeks of the season. He arguably outplayed Jalen Hurts. He threw for 316 yards and 3 TDs in that game. Might have been four if Boutte dragged his second foot at the end of the game. And of course he played well against the Bills.

 

[RIpats88]

Adding a skill player modifier is a strange requirement.

Is it though? Not drafting a pro bowl tight end, wide receiver etc. in 14 years is pretty bad.

Pretty sure it’s to specify why our offense is so bad.

 

[RIpats88]

But that's because we DIDN'T draft those guys.

After Dobson, they took one WR in the top 3 rounds until Tyquan. That's 10 years.

The question is why?

You had a team that repeatedly went to the Super Bowl. You constantly went with veterans instead. You had Brady. You brought in Brandon Lloyd, Wes Welker, Brandon LaFell, traded for Brandin Cooks, Antonio Brown, Mohamed Sanu, brought in Amendola, Hogan, you had Julian Edelman, Gronk, Hernandez for a time, brought in Martellus Bennett.

And the whole time you were throwing it underneath to Kevin Faulk, Shane Vereen and James White.

Clearly, by all these examples, we know why they didn't stock up on draft picks at these positions. They were in the middle of a Super Bowl run. I'd also make the case that several of those offenses were all time top NFL offenses, in particular the 2012 team. They were great on offense until 2018. It was the defense that needed help throughout this period.

You should draft to get your team where it needs to be, not to stock up on Pro Bowlers.

Once they had gronk and Edelman I don’t begrudge them not drafting the position.

The main problem is that as gronk aged (and was almost traded) and you had Edelman starting to decline and get older

They never addressed how to replace those two and the production they brought.

 

[Boomer B]

The ESPN guy, Wickersham, reported that belichick decided to trade 10 last off season and Kraft told him no, our Qb.

So that lets Belichick off from any criticism after he was the one who put Patricia/Judge in place to run the O that ruined Mac?

 

[Ross12]

How many seasons are we going to waste until the axe finally falls on those two? If we're lucky, it's just one.

Not that I think they do a bad job necessarily, but you nailed their only function in the organization now - be the fall guys for poor performance.

I'm not really following - the thought here is that they're keeping two guys and not hiring a GM so that they can be bad on purpose in the future and then blame these guys for the team being bad at that time? Why would they do that?

 

[upstater1]

Once they had gronk and Edelman I don’t begrudge them not drafting the position.

The main problem is that as gronk aged (and was almost traded) and you had Edelman starting to decline and get older

They never addressed how to replace those two and the production they brought.

In Gronk's time, we brought in a lot of veteran pass catchers. Spent picks bringing them in, big signings.

But Edelman played for another 2 years after Gronk, and that's when you see the emphasis on new pass catching resources: 1st rder, two 3rd rders, some late rounders, a bunch of FAs.

When you're looking at how to replace their production, you have to look at who they could've brought in (not a lot in FA), and who they should have drafted.

 

[upstater1]

So he limited one Wednesday practice in week 5 and it affected him the rest of the year despite not being on the injury report.

And Mac was not toast from the start. He played pretty well the first three weeks of the season. He arguably outplayed Jalen Hurts. He threw for 316 yards and 3 TDs in that game. Might have been four if Boutte dragged his second foot at the end of the game. And of course he played well against the Bills.

Jonnu played hurt late in the year in November, for 3 games.

But in any way, I disagree with you totally on Mac. I mean, I posted here an entire new thread explaining my reasons why in week 2.

I backed Mac the first 2 years because I allowed for the dysfunction of Patricia, but I think I should have paid a little more attention to the way he cried when he left the field after he hurt his ankle.

Week 2, this is what I wrote after the Phins game:

[Mac] is not seeing the game, not taking command, not playing the head games a QB needs to play with a defense to put his offense and the OL in optimal positions.

"He's jittery, he's skittish, he's throwing off his back foot. He's taking bad sacks. No wonder he's so inaccurate. His long throws are lollipops that bounce off the moon. There is zero confidence he can get anything done back there.

I gave Mac the benefit of the doubt until now, but you can't have a guy cowering back there and not controlling the game. He is the biggest problem. People will talk about the lack of offensive weapons, but the fact is, the QB controls the game, especially at home, and he doesn't maximize his talents or the meager talents of his WRs.

Bill O'Brien has to see this, but it's Mac's 3rd year and I'm not sure what can be done at this point.

I don't have the patience with him to see if he develops into a Geno Smith maybe 5 years down the line. I don't think he will ever even be a Geno Smith.

The O-line will get better, the continuity will improve, Mac will get more comfortable behind it, but when it's crunch time and the defense sends the house in crucial situations, when the heat turns up, especially against good teams, Mac will not answer the call. The good play we'll see from him in the coming weeks will be a mirage.

Oh, and one last thing: Make someone else play FS. We need Dugger up near the line of scrimmage causing havoc."

 

[Rob0729]

Jonnu played hurt late in the year in November, for 3 games.

But in any way, I disagree with you totally on Mac. I mean, I posted here an entire new thread explaining my reasons why in week 2.

I backed Mac the first 2 years because I allowed for the dysfunction of Patricia, but I think I should have paid a little more attention to the way he cried when he left the field after he hurt his ankle.

Week 2, this is what I wrote after the Phins game:

[Mac] is not seeing the game, not taking command, not playing the head games a QB needs to play with a defense to put his offense and the OL in optimal positions.

"He's jittery, he's skittish, he's throwing off his back foot. He's taking bad sacks. No wonder he's so inaccurate. His long throws are lollipops that bounce off the moon. There is zero confidence he can get anything done back there.

I gave Mac the benefit of the doubt until now, but you can't have a guy cowering back there and not controlling the game. He is the biggest problem. People will talk about the lack of offensive weapons, but the fact is, the QB controls the game, especially at home, and he doesn't maximize his talents or the meager talents of his WRs.

Bill O'Brien has to see this, but it's Mac's 3rd year and I'm not sure what can be done at this point.

I don't have the patience with him to see if he develops into a Geno Smith maybe 5 years down the line. I don't think he will ever even be a Geno Smith.

The O-line will get better, the continuity will improve, Mac will get more comfortable behind it, but when it's crunch time and the defense sends the house in crucial situations, when the heat turns up, especially against good teams, Mac will not answer the call. The good play we'll see from him in the coming weeks will be a mirage.

Oh, and one last thing: Make someone else play FS. We need Dugger up near the line of scrimmage causing havoc."

Your opinions on Mac in the game is not the be all and end all of analysis on Mac. There were plenty of people said Mac had a good, not great game after a bad start. He did complete 73.8% of his passes in that game.

And Jonnu was so hurt that he was never on the injury report. And his best game of the year was on November 5 (5 catches 100 yards and 1 TD) and the Falcons only three games in November because of they had the bye. And the only official injury he had was during week 5 and he was off the injury report in week 6. People have been saying Smith's drop off was due to injury since October. It was a minor injury that didn't seem to affect him.

 

[upstater1]

Your opinions on Mac in the game is not the be all and end all of analysis on Mac. There were plenty of people said Mac had a good, not great game after a bad start. He did complete 73.8% of his passes in that game.

And Jonnu was so hurt that he was never on the injury report. And his best game of the year was on November 5 (5 catches 100 yards and 1 TD) and the Falcons only three games in November because of they had the bye. And the only official injury he had was during week 5 and he was off the injury report in week 6. People have been saying Smith's drop off was due to injury since October. It was a minor injury that didn't seem to affect him.

It's silly to get involved with Jonnu stuff now. Outside of New England he has had success at both Atlanta and Tenn. He is not Atlanta's #1 TE obviously.

I know you love Mac. I can't help you to see what should be obvious. I was proven right in that post. People saw it long before me, I was blind to what they saw. But his bad play was pretty evident in that Miami game. He really killed us.

 

[Rob0729]

It's silly to get involved with Jonnu stuff now. Outside of New England he has had success at both Atlanta and Tenn. He is not Atlanta's #1 TE obviously.

I know you love Mac. I can't help you to see what should be obvious. I was proven right in that post. People saw it long before me, I was blind to what they saw. But his bad play was pretty evident in that Miami game. He really killed us.

Smith was decent this year. He wasn't great. He had couple of good games and was invisible the rest. But I will give you this. He didn't take out one of his teammates or himself for multiple games by running into a teammate like he did last year. That is one of the bonuses of escaping Mac Jones. He had a QB this year who didn't tell him to run into his teammates multiple times in a game. This narrative is bogus. Smith sucked here even Mac was productive as a rookie where Mac threw 3801 yards and 22 TDs (by comparison, the Falcons have 3770 passing yards and 17 passing TDs this year). He was a just a bad scheme fit for the Patriots. His failure here was on Belichick because they couldn't find a way to use him where he can be productive.

And I don't love Mac. I do think he got a raw deal and people are rewriting history on the guy. Just because you saw it one way in one game doesn't mean you were right about that game. He wasn't awful in that game and he wasn't the reason they lost. Don't forget the Pats were moving the ball at the beginning of the game and Douglas fumbled the ball on Miami's 27 yard line. The Pats should have at least got a field goal on that drive and would have changed the game and they might have won. Jones had his own turnover too in the endzone with the Pats on the Miami 22. But to put the blame of that entire game on Mac isn't reality.

 

[jdlboot14]

the reports about Pats waiting to hire GM till after the draft is being misunderstood...

I think (if there's any truth to it) it means they will use the group they have now to manage FA's, and Draft in a committee style.
And, see during that process if one of the guys is worth being named official GM.

The only issue there is who is the tie-breaker, or final decision-maker during the draft where you need one voice to be buck-stopper?

 

[upstater1]

Smith was decent this year. He wasn't great. He had couple of good games and was invisible the rest. But I will give you this. He didn't take out one of his teammates or himself for multiple games by running into a teammate like he did last year. That is one of the bonuses of escaping Mac Jones. He had a QB this year who didn't tell him to run into his teammates multiple times in a game. This narrative is bogus. Smith sucked here even Mac was productive as a rookie where Mac threw 3801 yards and 22 TDs (by comparison, the Falcons have 3770 passing yards and 17 passing TDs this year). He was a just a bad scheme fit for the Patriots. His failure here was on Belichick because they couldn't find a way to use him where he can be productive.

And I don't love Mac. I do think he got a raw deal and people are rewriting history on the guy. Just because you saw it one way in one game doesn't mean you were right about that game. He wasn't awful in that game and he wasn't the reason they lost. Don't forget the Pats were moving the ball at the beginning of the game and Douglas fumbled the ball on Miami's 27 yard line. The Pats should have at least got a field goal on that drive and would have changed the game and they might have won. Jones had his own turnover too in the endzone with the Pats on the Miami 22. But to put the blame of that entire game on Mac isn't reality.

Beating a dead horse now.

What's your estimate of how many times we've had this conversation?

I wouldn't have posted what I did if I didn't see it. I actually challenge you to find posts not defending the guy from prior to that. I was absolutely not on the Zappe train last season. I was heavily in critique of the offense and Patricia. Although I still think Patricia was a big problem, the true reality of the situation dawned on me this year. We picked the wrong QB

 

[VJCPatriot]

Once they had gronk and Edelman I don’t begrudge them not drafting the position.

The main problem is that as gronk aged (and was almost traded) and you had Edelman starting to decline and get older

They never addressed how to replace those two and the production they brought.

Agreed. The Patriots never considered succession planning at key positions. Even when Gronk was getting injured they never invested a high pick in a replacement TE. Even when Amendola left, they never adequately replaced him unless you count Sanu which was a disaster and Edelman was aging and could not be a "#1" by himself with Gronk gone.

N'Keal Harry and Tyquan Thornton were simply terrible draft evaluations and decisions. Those are both on BB. Although I suspect groh/wolf might have also been culprits in the Thornton pick which is why it puzzles me that they are still here and no new GM is in place, no upgraded scouting staff has been announced, etc.

 

[Uptown]

 

[Ross12]

It’s a valid point that the team has never really had a GM but they’ve had a person with “final say” during all that time, whether that was Bill or it was Pioli before him, or it was Bobby Grier before them. None of them have held the GM title but they were the guys running the draft board, making the picks and signing players.

Things can be collaborative but someone has to have that duty. Perhaps this winter is an audition for the person that they feel is suited for that role, and if they go a month or two and feel they need more help, they can add a VP of Football Ops to oversee things a bit before free agency. The operation wouldn’t change substantially but would simply add a person to make final calls and steer the ship. But I guess they may simply not know if they need that role just yet.

 

[upstater1]

Is it though? Not drafting a pro bowl tight end, wide receiver etc. in 14 years is pretty bad.

Pretty sure it’s to specify why our offense is so bad.

14 years? How far back are we going here? They were in the middle of a Super Bowl run. They had Gronk. And Hernandez for the first 4 years of those 14. Why are they drafting TEs back then? Theire receivers (Welker, Edelman, Lloyd, Cooks for 1 years, Amendola, LaFell, did they had to do. We spent a lot of picks on WR trades (Cooks, Thomas, Brown, Sanu) but NONE in the first 3 rounds on WR between Dobson and Harry. Mitchell is the only one we took in the 4th, and he was good before he got hurt.

This seems like a made up stat that doesn't look at the success of the team for 10 of those years and ignores the guys who were here.

 

[upstater1]

Interesting words.

"Want to have..."

"But since no one trustworthy was found he did it on an interim basis...."

 

[upstater1]

Agreed. The Patriots never considered succession planning at key positions. Even when Gronk was getting injured they never invested a high pick in a replacement TE. Even when Amendola left, they never adequately replaced him unless you count Sanu which was a disaster and Edelman was aging and could not be a "#1" by himself with Gronk gone.

N'Keal Harry and Tyquan Thornton were simply terrible draft evaluations and decisions. Those are both on BB. Although I suspect groh/wolf might have also been culprits in the Thornton pick which is why it puzzles me that they are still here and no new GM is in place, no upgraded scouting staff has been announced, etc.

Mitchell would've been a good Amendola replacement. Trouble is that he was only here 2 years.

Succession planning is for the birds when you're trying to win Super Bowls. You're maximizing your chances of winning that (never mind the mantra that Brady doesn't work well with rookies). Thuney, Mitchell, Wynn, Michel, Harry were the 5 investments in those 4 years. I'm throwing out the 17 draft because we gave our 1st and 2nd rounder to idiot Goodell and ended up with only 4 picks (4th Detrich Wise).

 

[Ross12]

Perhaps it will be Mayo who ultimately makes the picks, but isn’t doing the scouting. He relies on the front office to build the draft board and give him their profiles on each player and then he works from that board to pick who is available or move up/down as appropriate to target specific guys. That way, the scouts and execs are never being overruled because the board is made up of their guys, but Mayo is still getting to prioritize positions that he feels need priority - of course, working in concert with Groh and Wolf. If he wants a receiver then he would look to the highest ranking receiver left on their board. Etc

 

[VJCPatriot]

Perhaps it will be Mayo who ultimately makes the picks, but isn’t doing the scouting. He relies on the front office to build the draft board and give him their profiles on each player and then he works from that board to pick who is available or move up/down as appropriate to target specific guys. That way, the scouts and execs are never being overruled because the board is made up of their guys, but Mayo is still getting to prioritize positions that he feels need priority - of course, working in concert with Groh and Wolf. If he wants a receiver then he would look to the highest ranking receiver left on their board. Etc

I still have my doubts on Groh and Wolf because they were the ones stacking the draft boards the past few years and we still got disasters like Harry, Strange, Thornton, etc. Hell one of the OL coaches, I believe Klemm, got so irate at the GARBAGE he had to work with on OL this year that he reportedly verbally shouted at Groh for doing a bad job. I guess the question will be how much of the fault was BB overruling the scouts/Groh/Wolf and how much of it was the scouts/Groh/Wolf stacking the draft boards with crap players.

I'm guessing there is plenty of blame to spread around. Which is why I would have preferred a house cleaning entirely - new GM/Personnel guy/scouting department etc. I'm guessing Kraft is scared to rock the boat too much after ejecting BB but maybe it's a problem that he is not making even more changes. We shall see.