Offensive Pass Protection Breakdown (EXCELLENT READ)

[newton_tom_cat]

Re: Offensive Pass Protection Breakdown

For those who are interested, here is my breakdown of Week 17 line play aagainst the very same Giants:

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/showthread.php?t=75967

And others from the playoffs and regular season:

Jaguars and Chargers
Steelers, Dolphins, and Jets
Ravens
Eagles

man you are amazing. are you a former coach?

 

[Pats726]

Re: Offensive Pass Protection Breakdown

I'm also curious...since you have looked at a TON of the past games if you thought the refs were letting a bit more go holding wise in this game as opposed to others...Just curious if you have thoughts on that since you have studied the line play so much.
Much has been made of how the Giants line held on the Manning pass to Tyree...and my thought was that they had let a LOT go..so there was no reason to call it then. Other Giant fans have said the Pats got away with a lot...so what are your thoughts on the Pats O line and Holding calls of that game compared to others you have looked at??? And I am aware this is a subtle thing as it seems holding can be called on all plays..so only when it is flagrant is the flag thrown. Great WORK!!!!!

 

[Keegs]

Re: Offensive Pass Protection Breakdown

This breakdown by you was very fascinating.
My detailed breakdown came to the exact same conclusion as yours:

The Pats offensive line played like a bunch of stupid idiots.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

Re: Offensive Pass Protection Breakdown

Great work... this is why I stick to bickering with the clueless... I'll never get any traction arguing w/breakdown guys, especially so thorough, and with photo evidence available. Kudos again!

This sort of raises a question in my mind - when one talks about going to a zone blocking system, does that in fact only apply to run blocking, or does it apply to protection to? And if so, are some of its characteristics being exploited in what we see here? Something tells me the answer is "nope, zone blocking is run only, we just got beat over and over and over..." But you know how it is when the mind keeps replaying...

PFnV

 

[SunnyDenmark]

Re: Offensive Pass Protection Breakdown

Essentially, I agree: it's up to the coaching staff to come up with antidotes to the opponents' poison. The Giants poison was their pass rush. Yeah, we tried and failed in the run game, but how many times did we try?? The game was close enough that sticking with a power game or at least doing something offensive with the O-line, where the guys get to go on the offensive and lay some wood, that would have smashed the Giants D in their mouth. The best way to lose momentum is to keep playing into the strength of what the opponent is doing well, and the Pats did exactly that.

Bad scores for both McDaniels and BB for letting that crap go on for as long as it did, essentially allowing the Giants to dictate the tempo and momentum of the game. Bad, bad. Jumbo up, put in the power team, and take it to them. Offense is what made the Pats the whole year, a balanced offense. One-dimensional offenses are always easier to bottle up. Ask the old AFL/AFC of 30 years ago (Chargers, in particular). BB and Josh put the game into the hands of an injured Brady and asked him to win the game all by himself. Like the Giants weren't expecting that?? BB and McDaniels got out-coached, sorry to say.//

I agree whole heartedly. Have to keep the Giants D honest and respect the run (possibility). Not to mention that we were ahead most of the game and so running could also burn more time off the clock. I am surprised we didnt try any reverses to Welker. Maroney had been doing great in the last few games and Pats basically tried a few runs early with him (seemed mostly on 1st downs) and then just threw in the towel and went pass happy - playing into the Giants strength.

 

[Tunescribe]

Re: Offensive Pass Protection Breakdown

Excellent analysis that begs the question what could or should have been done adjustment-wise to move the ball. Despite the OL apocalypse we still were up 14-10 with 2:45 and 87 yards to go, and SHOULD have won the game given those odds and a top-four defense. When one unit plays crappy, the other needs to step it up. The whole team underachieved and I know we're better than what we showed at Super Bowl XLII.

I've always felt our offensive line's physicality was average across the board yet they melded well as a unit. We're pretty much guaranteed the same personnel next season. I'm hoping with Sammy Morris back, we'll emphasize a more balanced attack.

 

[BradyManny]

Re: Offensive Pass Protection Breakdown

I've always felt our offensive line's physicality was average across the board yet they melded well as a unit. We're pretty much guaranteed the same personnel next season. I'm hoping with Sammy Morris back, we'll emphasize a more balanced attack.

You never know. I said this last year - if there's an option to UPGRADE the O-Line, then they'll take it. But in order to upgrade, they'd probably have to spend a first rounder. Long or Clady, I don't know when those guys are supposed to go.

I'm hoping for a more balanced attack, as well. My one criticism of McD over the past couple seasons is that he makes little effort to disguise whether we are running or passing the ball, which plays right into the hands of teams like the Giants who want to T off on us. Where was the inside handoff out of the gun on Sunday, like the way we used it against the Colts? With the Giants D-line getting upfield so fast, wouldn't delayed runs be a good way of combating that? I'm just speculating here, but I'm still having trouble accepting/acknowledging we couldn't switch up and find a way to put points on the board.

 

[unoriginal]

Re: Offensive Pass Protection Breakdown

man you are amazing. are you a former coach?

Former player, a cornerback/wide receiver. Would like to coach but random stuff like this is all I have time for right now.

I'm also curious...since you have looked at a TON of the past games if you thought the refs were letting a bit more go holding wise in this game as opposed to others...Just curious if you have thoughts on that since you have studied the line play so much.
Much has been made of how the Giants line held on the Manning pass to Tyree...and my thought was that they had let a LOT go..so there was no reason to call it then. Other Giant fans have said the Pats got away with a lot...so what are your thoughts on the Pats O line and Holding calls of that game compared to others you have looked at??? And I am aware this is a subtle thing as it seems holding can be called on all plays..so only when it is flagrant is the flag thrown. Great WORK!!!!!

I've not really looked for it. Haven't noticed anything egregious though. If I had to pick a game where I saw the most holding it was probably the Ravens game.

This sort of raises a question in my mind - when one talks about going to a zone blocking system, does that in fact only apply to run blocking, or does it apply to protection to? And if so, are some of its characteristics being exploited in what we see here? Something tells me the answer is "nope, zone blocking is run only, we just got beat over and over and over..." But you know how it is when the mind keeps replaying...

Zone blocking also applies to protection. Pure zone to pure man is, like everything on the football field, something of a continuum: linemen can have "man" assignments before the snap but trade them if the defense twists or something.

Here's what looks to be a man scheme where Mankins follows his assignment around Koppen:

And here's one where he follows his blitzing linebacker around Matt Light (from Week 17):
http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/8494/koppentuckfq7.jpg (too wide to post in thread, breaks post)

From the 2nd Jets game, this one is indicative of a pass blocking zone:

Obviously Koppen couldn't possibly be assigned to block the nickelback; rather, he is assigned to work the zone next to the right of the quarterback.

The Pats naturally switch it all up game-to-game and play-to-play. You see Koppen doing that weird drop-back thing in the Jets game because they were dropping their nose a lot and bringing pressure wide. You want to be in a zone setup if the defense is twisting their lineman, but generally not if they're overloading a part of the line.

Where was the inside handoff out of the gun on Sunday, like the way we used it against the Colts? With the Giants D-line getting upfield so fast, wouldn't delayed runs be a good way of combating that? I'm just speculating here, but I'm still having trouble accepting/acknowledging we couldn't switch up and find a way to put points on the board.

With the Colts, their best lineman is Freeney, and they get pressure mostly from the outside. You can run draws into the underbelly of the rush by pushing all the lineman deep and wide.

Against the Giants, their best rush was coming right up the middle, along with their best blitzes. Doing delayed runs into that is like handing the Giants a sack.

 

[Pats726]

Re: Offensive Pass Protection Breakdown

Thanks....I just wondered about that because of all thatw as said about Holding...GREAT analysis!!!

 

[QuinielaBox]

Re: Offensive Pass Protection Breakdown

I guess the Patriots needed to try toss sweeps to Maroney to get around this up the middle pressure they faced all day. There could have been some opportunities for Maroney to advance the ball and make the Giants secondary tackle him.

THe Giants focused on limiting Welker when the ball was successfully thrown by Brady.

But our O-line was uncharacteristically manhandled. I voted the Giants DL as the MVP, not Eli or Plax.

 

[SavioKid]

Re: Offensive Pass Protection Breakdown

UnOriginal's analysis/shots of plays shows amd confirms what we thought all along: our OL got manhandled / beat / outschemed by Gmen all day long! These were not coverage sacks / pressures / etc. either since Brady (At least it appeared) was not holding the ball beyond the normal 3 - 5 seconds on the sacks or fumbles.
And on the flip our pass rush wasn't getting it done (what was it 1 sack on Eli?) as evident by the PATS bringing the house on the winning TD pass - a dumb defensive call on all out blitz!.

So, the list of needs grows:
* some type of eilite T or Guard on the line?
* inside LBs - speed / bone crushing tacklers.
* pass rushers?
* CBs / Safeties - speed! and soem 'man type' coverage guys.

 

[Mr.Muhozi]

Re: Offensive Pass Protection Breakdown

great analysis, hell i think that coaches might use breakdowns like that, it really showed light on how crap our O-line was, and that tuck should have been MVP, not gomer

 

[QuinielaBox]

Re: Offensive Pass Protection Breakdown

Fantastic analysis!

The Patriots offensive line was wretched in pass protection against the Giants. McDaniels was better off calling the "three yards and a cloud of dust" plays.

Maybe they should have tried to establish a power running game like they did against San Diego. Then the play action fake is more effective. Second guessers are for losers anyway. The plays that needed to be made were not made time and again. This will go down as one of the worst losses in the history of the New England Patriots. The poor energy of the Patriots players and the poor coaching of the Patriot coaching staff was inexcusable in the biggest game in the history of the National Football League.

Hopefully like in 1986, the Celtics can restore the honor of Boston by winning their 17th NBA championship.

 

[captain stone]

Re: Offensive Pass Protection Breakdown

With the Colts, their best lineman is Freeney, and they get pressure mostly from the outside. You can run draws into the underbelly of the rush by pushing all the lineman deep and wide.

Against the Giants, their best rush was coming right up the middle, along with their best blitzes. Doing delayed runs into that is like handing the Giants a sack.

Then Maroney/Faulk should have been given delayed draws toward the tackles, if up-the-middle draws would not have worked. And installing more Jumbo formations was a no-brainer.

Fact is, that BB/McD/TB did not take full advantage of the jints' upfield aggressiveness, esp. when conventional pass-pro blocking was not working.

The definition of "insanity" is...

 

[captain stone]

Re: Offensive Pass Protection Breakdown

I agree whole heartedly. Have to keep the Giants D honest and respect the run (possibility). Not to mention that we were ahead most of the game and so running could also burn more time off the clock. I am surprised we didnt try any reverses to Welker. Maroney had been doing great in the last few games and Pats basically tried a few runs early with him (seemed mostly on 1st downs) and then just threw in the towel and went pass happy - playing into the Giants strength.

I also agree. There were opportunities to go Jumbo, run draws, and even end-arounds/reverses. The offense did not impose its will on the jints' pass-rush-happy DL.

 

[captain stone]

Re: Offensive Pass Protection Breakdown

You never know. I said this last year - if there's an option to UPGRADE the O-Line, then they'll take it. But in order to upgrade, they'd probably have to spend a first rounder. Long or Clady, I don't know when those guys are supposed to go.

Perhaps not. Remember, Dan Koppen was drafted near the end of the 5th round in 2003; and the Bills' Jason Peters - the other All-Pro OT - was Undrafted in 2004.
I do agree that an upgrade at OT is needed

I'm hoping for a more balanced attack, as well. My one criticism of McD over the past couple seasons is that he makes little effort to disguise whether we are running or passing the ball, which plays right into the hands of teams like the Giants who want to T off on us. Where was the inside handoff out of the gun on Sunday, like the way we used it against the Colts? With the Giants D-line getting upfield so fast, wouldn't delayed runs be a good way of combating that? I'm just speculating here, but I'm still having trouble accepting/acknowledging we couldn't switch up and find a way to put points on the board.

Eggs-actly, Batman. When the offense lines up in pass formation, it's almost always a pass. When it lines up in run formation, it's almost always a run. The Pats O did not give the gints' D enough to think about; and when one has to think, one hesitates. And that little hesitation might have been all that Brady would have needed.

 

[Rob0729]

Re: Offensive Pass Protection Breakdown

Great analysis.

Personally I always agreed with what you supported. Let's face it though. The Pats could have scored 104 points on offense in the Super Bowl a week ago and the McDaniels haters would say anyone could have scored 104 points in a single game with the talent we have on offense and Weis would have scored 256 points.

As I have said before, the McDaniels haters appararently want to blame him for strength and conditioning of the o-linemen too because it was cleared the Pats were just outmuscled in the trenches.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Re: Offensive Pass Protection Breakdown

Eggs-actly, Batman. When the offense lines up in pass formation, it's almost always a pass. When it lines up in run formation, it's almost always a run. The Pats O did not give the gints' D enough to think about; and when one has to think, one hesitates. And that little hesitation might have been all that Brady would have needed.

I guess that explains how we set new league scoring records over the course of the season...

What you are failing to come to terms with is Spagnolo sold his team on a plan. Pressure at all cost. It was the only real shot the Giants had. His only hope was they didn't make costly mistakes before the pressure became unbearable and they didn't wear out before his offense scored some points. The Giants weren't thinking, let alone buying sells, just executing the plan. They dominated the LOS irrespective of adjustments that were in fact made for all but 2 5 minute drives, and that was enough. That was the beauty of it.

 

[upstater1]

Re: Offensive Pass Protection Breakdown

Brilliant presentation. All of those fancy pictures & such. Kudos to you for spending god knows how many wasteful hours on that.

Yet, the real problem was actually the Patriots refusal to establish a power running game. This is why the game was lost. Talk about screens, draws, delays, and all of those other finesse plays that supposedly negate a good pass rush.

But the best remedy for this is always a physical running game. Especially in a game this close. That Giants D line would have been completely beaten down by the 4th quarter had the Patriots just kept feeding Maroney and pounding away with a two back set.

Belichick should have known better than to stick with the pass-happy approach after seeing his QB getting pounded.

Not buying this.

On 3 possessions in the first half, the Patriots were stopped while running it on 2nd and short, 3rd and short. One could easily argue that our INABILITY to run stalled 3 potential scoring drives.

If you try to establish the run, and manage a semblance of a running game, then great. But if you can't for it, then you end up stalling your drives. The only two long 1st half drives were pass heavy, though one ended in a Brady fumble.

 

[upstater1]

Re: Offensive Pass Protection Breakdown

Great analysis.

I think your analysis will proven as in agreement with the Pat's coaches analysis if they draft an OL early. This didn't look like something you coach up, but more of a physical matchup problem.

Well, they drafted Mankins early, and he had the most problems. I fail to see how this might be the answer. It was a collective breakdown.

I think of our OL, only Kaczur should be worried.