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Now that he's signed, do we trade Welker?


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This will be Welker's 3rd contract with the Pats. Given his production he's been a bargain at around $4MM/yr for the past 5 years. No question about that. Given how often players who have signed multiple contracts DON'T live up to the money, its not a bad thing for a team to have one that does.

Richard Seymour is STILL one of the top defensive linemen in the league, but does anyone believe that he's played to the level of that massive contract he got from Oakland? Of course not, he'd literally have to be the defensive player of the year....every year to live up to it. To a lesser degree this is the position the Pats are in with Welker.

Again its the conundrum of do you pay for the production that Welker has given you over the past 5 years, or do you pay him for what you can expect over the next 2-4 years. And its not just based on the player himself. It has a lot to do with the position he plays, and how the Pats value that position within the offense they expect to be playing in the next 2-4 years. (ie the number of snaps he's expected to be on the field, the number of looks he's expected to get given the other targets, etc)

Again I'm not one who will join with the majority and demand the Pat's pay Welker the "market rate" for someone of his production. No pity party here. First of all, most of the "market rate" contracts were for receivers who are much bigger and younger than Welker. They were paid a premium because of extreme need, age, size AND potential.

Secondly, even at $6MM/yr its not like the Pats are telling Welker FU. They are essentially giving him a 33% raise, even though his expected production is very likely to decline over the length of the contract. To put it another way, its like a company giving one of their top salesman a 33% raise, even though its likely his sales are going to decrease by 20-30% over the course of the contract.

IF its true that the Pats are at $6MM/yr and Welker is at 8MM/yr, then I'd be willing to pay him $7MM/yr on a 4 year deal with about $16-18MM guaranteed over the first 2 years. I'd also be willing to add incentives that could add as much as another 2MM/yr if he keeps giving us 100+ catches and 1100yd seasons.

If he truly is a freak of nature and his age, size, and wear and tear, don't effect him as expected during over the life of the contract, then, by all means, there should be provisions in the contract that get him to that $9-10MM level. That would only be fair.

However it would be equally fair for the Pats to have provisions in his contract that limit their risk, if his production should decline. Giving him that $8-9MM/yr guaranteed, rewards him for past production, and commits the Pats only for the 2 years he's more likely to be playing at an elite level. After that he his pay should be a function of his production

The lesson here is that you should never pay for past production, only future expected results....plus incentives.
 
Yeah, let's take our best offensive player after Tom Brady and trade him for a couple of prospects! After all, we are awesome at picking wide receivers! Woo Hoo!


Ah, no.
 
Its a negotiation. Your comments are far too emotional, such as demending a contract that would be more than one someone is going to get in the future without knowing what it will be, therefore taking away cap space that can be used for other players.
If the Patriots are consistently pissing off their top players, it shouldn't be too difficult for you to give a list of the top players who used that in their decision to leave.
The top players who chose to stay, despite being supposedly consistently pissed off by the team include Brady, Moss, Light, Mankins, Seymour, round 1 (and he also said when traded he wanted to stay, so thats not an example on your side) Dillon, Harrison, Vrabel, McGinest many times, Mayo.
Who you got on your side? Overrated Asante? career threatening injured Law?

I could be wrong but I recall you being one of the people I really got into it with about the 2005 Brady deal... You do have that see no evil thing going on.
 
Yeah, let's take our best offensive player after Tom Brady and trade him for a couple of prospects! After all, we are awesome at picking wide receivers! Woo Hoo!


Ah, no.

Nobody is talking about trading Gronk.
 
This will be Welker's 3rd contract with the Pats. Given his production he's been a bargain at around $4MM/yr for the past 5 years. No question about that. Given how often players who have signed multiple contracts DON'T live up to the money, its not a bad thing for a team to have one that does.

Richard Seymour is STILL one of the top defensive linemen in the league, but does anyone believe that he's played to the level of that massive contract he got from Oakland? Of course not, he'd literally have to be the defensive player of the year....every year to live up to it. To a lesser degree this is the position the Pats are in with Welker.

Again its the conundrum of do you pay for the production that Welker has given you over the past 5 years, or do you pay him for what you can expect over the next 2-4 years. And its not just based on the player himself. It has a lot to do with the position he plays, and how the Pats value that position within the offense they expect to be playing in the next 2-4 years. (ie the number of snaps he's expected to be on the field, the number of looks he's expected to get given the other targets, etc)

Again I'm not one who will join with the majority and demand the Pat's pay Welker the "market rate" for someone of his production. No pity party here. First of all, most of the "market rate" contracts were for receivers who are much bigger and younger than Welker. They were paid a premium because of extreme need, age, size AND potential.

Secondly, even at $6MM/yr its not like the Pats are telling Welker FU. They are essentially giving him a 33% raise, even though his expected production is very likely to decline over the length of the contract. To put it another way, its like a company giving one of their top salesman a 33% raise, even though its likely his sales are going to decrease by 20-30% over the course of the contract.

IF its true that the Pats are at $6MM/yr and Welker is at 8MM/yr, then I'd be willing to pay him $7MM/yr on a 4 year deal with about $16-18MM guaranteed over the first 2 years. I'd also be willing to add incentives that could add as much as another 2MM/yr if he keeps giving us 100+ catches and 1100yd seasons.

If he truly is a freak of nature and his age, size, and wear and tear, don't effect him as expected during over the life of the contract, then, by all means, there should be provisions in the contract that get him to that $9-10MM level. That would only be fair.

However it would be equally fair for the Pats to have provisions in his contract that limit their risk, if his production should decline. Giving him that $8-9MM/yr guaranteed, rewards him for past production, and commits the Pats only for the 2 years he's more likely to be playing at an elite level. After that he his pay should be a function of his production

The lesson here is that you should never pay for past production, only future expected results....plus incentives.

It's his second deal, ken. Aricept. Welker isn't asking for top tier money. Seymour was demanding it. In the NFL a players pay is always a function of his production. Length and total value of a deal is just a concept, once the guaranteed money is paid all bets are off for the player, although if it works to their advantage a team can retain him...
 
Yeah, but the bizarre thing is Mayo got set the bar money...early. Early deals are supposed to be discounted...at least a little.

Does anyone have a good sight for reference to this stuff? The best I could find is this 2012 NFL Top Average Salaries - Linebacker and from that it looks like Mayo didn't even sign for top 10 money. When you factor in he was signing away the prime of his career that sure looks like a discount to me.
 
Does anyone have a good sight for reference to this stuff? The best I could find is this 2012 NFL Top Average Salaries - Linebacker and from that it looks like Mayo didn't even sign for top 10 money. When you factor in he was signing away the prime of his career that sure looks like a discount to me.

His extention money (the 5 years added on to the 1 and a twelvth years left on his rookie deal, averaged $9.7M. That puts him in the top 3 in new money. The team was able to fold some of that (bonus) into the last 2 years of his rookie deal for cap purposes (thus some call it a 7 year deal at a lower average). By that measure Brady is only averaging $15.8M as opposed to the $18M per his 4 year extension entailed because it got added to Brady's final remaining year of his 2005 contract. So if Brady's deal set the bar, Mayo's is in the same range for LB's. Mankins deal set the bar at the time too, although in his case that was absent any remaining years to mitigate/offset it for cap purposes.
 
Fascinating how a thread like this finally lands in the PS 140 or so posts in...
 
It's his second deal, ken. Aricept. Welker isn't asking for top tier money. Seymour was demanding it. In the NFL a players pay is always a function of his production. Length and total value of a deal is just a concept, once the guaranteed money is paid all bets are off for the player, although if it works to their advantage a team can retain him...

WelI thought sometime during the last 5 years, Welker got an extension or a raise, but I could be wrong. If I was, it doesn't change the basic premise I was trying to make.

BTW- why was this topic moved. By and large I thought it was interesting and informative.
 
I assume someone didn't like the way the wind was blowing.

Welker was traded for a 2nd and a 7th (as opposed to signed to an offer sheet as a RFA) in 2007 and signed his 5 year $18M deal that many here at the time thought was seriously overpaying for a slot receiver... Heck, NEM wanted him cut once Stallworth and Moss were aboard. No use for midgets.
 
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I'm a big Welker fan, but I'm fine with this negotitaing tactic. The fact of the matter is that the Patriots have their own assessment of his worth, and once this season is over, they'll almost certainly believe that he's worth less than he is now. The Pats may compromise to keep him around long-term like they did with Wilfork and Mankins, but if they're doing this in recognition of the fact that they can't extend new contracts over the next 2 years to each of Welker, Hernandez, and Gronk, then by all means Welker should be the one who they're willing to lose.
 
Ballbusting your core and most productive players isn't an intelligent negotiating tactic. And you won't like it when they do it to Gronkowski and or Hernandez, and they will. And what Wes gets for the next 3-4 years won't have any bearing on what those two get because their new money won't even kick in before 2015 and if they are talked into folding their deals into the remaining time on their rookie deals not at average until maybe 2017 or 2018.
 
Wes Welker: Contract talks with Pats have ‘gotten worse’ - BostonHerald.com

If Welker's portrayal is accurate, this type of crap is why Brady should have held the Patriots chestnuts to the fire when his time was up, and forced the Patriots to give him a contract that would be better than anything Manning got. It's one thing to be a hardliner. It's another thing to consistently piss on your top players. There's no excuse for this sort of nonsense out of the Patriots.

One of these time theyre going to piss off Brady. This could the one if Wes says FU and asks for a trade. Brady and Welker are very close and we saw what happened with Branch. Branchs fault but his leaving hurt the Pats.
 
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lowering your contract offer after Welker signs the tender borders on bad faith negotiations (if true). Just because you are successful at it doesn't make it right or fair. Moss arguably went crazy thinking the Pats were going to **** him out a contract and you could argue it led to his demise (right or wrong). Branch left and it cost us a Superbowl. I don't think they're "cheap" just tactless when it comes to this and it's a flawed approach that has cost us.

How has it hurt us? We traded Branch because he wanted too much money, and held out. Are you really saying that was a bad move?
You repeat that it is flawed, but don't show anything close to evidence of that.
 
I could be wrong but I recall you being one of the people I really got into it with about the 2005 Brady deal... You do have that see no evil thing going on.

I don't know what you mean about the Brady deal.
Its not a matter of seeing no evil, its a matter of them having the right to negotiate how they see fit, just as the player does. What you will see is me not criticizing either side for how they choose to negotiate contracts, with the exception of a hold out.
Seeing no reason to criticize a party for using whatever negotiation tools they see fit, is only 'seeing no evil' if you try to use that totally unbiased opinion as a way to argue it conflicts with your biased one.
 
With camp starting next week do you think some team will offer a 2nd for wes and take the franchise tag.
 
Baseball-bat-TV-smash.gif

That video reminds me of a 15yo kid I coached in baseball. He used to have a habit of taking the bat and hitting himself in the top front of his helmet after he struck out. It was pretty funny when he did it after a strikeout that knocked his helmet off. He didn't quite knock himself out, but he came close.
 
He is one of the elite receivers in the league. He is very valuable, however Edeleman just needs oportunity, he is very good and would be great replacement. The Pats do have way too many receivers.
 
Im sure miami would be interested in trading back to get him since they see how good he has become in the nfl . Possibility :singing:
 
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