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Need a bruising RB... But who?


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LeGarrette Blount 2016:

Until Week 10 (10 Games): 201 carries, 822 yds (4.1 ypc) 12 TD

After Week 10 (inc Playoffs, 9 Games): 133 carries, 449 yds (3.4 ypc) 7 TD


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He was an average NFL back in the first half of the season, and well-below average in the second half. This is not opinion, these are irrefutable facts.

If your position is 'Yay I like Blount Force Trauma because Muskets", fine, then this post isn't for you. The absolute fact of the matter is, you can duplicate Blount's production in someone younger, faster, cheaper, more versatile and better.

Belichick will likely keep Blount like he kept Green-Ellis, like he kept Smith. They weren't very good, but they could pass block and didn't cost you games. If that's all you want, then fine, but I think the Patriots will be looking to get younger, faster and cheaper at the position.

For various purposes, he would fit in various spots on the distribution.

When teams get point for yards per carry that will become much, much more important in the total calculation. But it is certainly a consideration emblematic of things like long runs, consistent medium-length runs, etc.

Now, since you characterize him as "average" and "below average," respectively, for these periods of time, please let me know which backs topped 19 TDs last year, playoffs and regular season combined. Going with 3 backs per team, per the rotation Blount played in and that is most common, there should be 48 backs with 19 touchdowns on the year. Going with a more conservative 2 backs per team, there should be 32 backs with 19 touchdowns on the year (since we're looking for "average.")

Are there in fact 32 backs in the NFL who produced 19 TDs this year? Are there 48? No?

How many are there, exactly?

I'm not even lobbying for keeping Blount, I'm saying give him his due.

You can make your case without hyperbole. He has this statistical upside. He has that statistical downside. But don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining.
 
Lynch is an ingrate, too much of a baby to do a significant part of his job.

We just have a fundamental disagreement on the idea that answering questions like "what happened on that play that we all just watched?" is, at all, a significant part of the athlete's job. Does a reclusive musician/actor/author owes it to those who purchase their art to do interviews? Of course I agree, to each their own. Just curious how far it extends. Say I'm a bartender. My job doesn't exist without clientele. If a patron starts asking me personal questions or questions about my opinions about my coworkers or boss, I feel under no obligation to answer. This does not make me an ingrate.
 
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For various purposes, he would fit in various spots on the distribution.

When teams get point for yards per carry that will become much, much more important in the total calculation. But it is certainly a consideration emblematic of things like long runs, consistent medium-length runs, etc.

Now, since you characterize him as "average" and "below average," respectively, for these periods of time, please let me know which backs topped 19 TDs last year, playoffs and regular season combined. Going with 3 backs per team, per the rotation Blount played in and that is most common, there should be 48 backs with 19 touchdowns on the year. Going with a more conservative 2 backs per team, there should be 32 backs with 19 touchdowns on the year (since we're looking for "average.")

Are there in fact 32 backs in the NFL who produced 19 TDs this year? Are there 48? No?

How many are there, exactly?

I'm not even lobbying for keeping Blount, I'm saying give him his due.

You can make your case without hyperbole. He has this statistical upside. He has that statistical downside. But don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining.

The TDs are a cherry-picking stat. Yay, you were on the 1 and scored, good work. Really, good work, that's nice. So maybe he should only get the ball inside the 5.

He averaged 3.9ypc for the season, 3.4 in the 2nd half of the season, and 3.1 in the playoffs. The league average for ypc is 4.0. That's "average" and "below average". The TDs help your fantasy team, but don't do much to tell you how good a RB is. As we saw in the Super Bowl, James White did it just as well.

But he doesn't pretend shoot rifles with the Minutemen, so.
 
We just have a fundamental disagreement on the idea that answering questions like "what happened on that play that we all just watched?" is, at all, a significant part of the athlete's job. Does a reclusive musician/actor/author owes it to those who purchase their art to do interviews? Of course I agree, to each their own. Just curious how far it extends. Say I'm a bartender. My job doesn't exist without clientele. If a patron starts asking me personal questions or questions about my opinions about my coworkers or boss, I feel under no obligation to answer. This does not make me an ingrate.

Refusing to answer a question for legitimate cause is one thing. Refusing effectively even to entertain questions when you knew in advance that that is part of your job and are party to a contract (two: one collective, one individual) to the effect that you will do so is very much another.

Nietzsche wrote that "philosophies" are just dressed-up versions of personal whim, temperament, and emotional predilection. * Our differences are likely really at that level, which better be fine, since such differences are an inescapable feature of human nature! I just don't like the slovenly SOB; you do. Here's more tedious French: Vive la difference, particularly in an age where we're required all to be pretty much the same person, increasingly under penalty of law...but I probably shouldn't start casting around in those waters.

* Right at the start of Beyond Good and Evil, I think it was.

[edit] Yep:

They all pose as though their real
opinions had been discovered and attained through the self-
evolving of a cold, pure, divinely indifferent dialectic (in
contrast to all sorts of mystics, who, fairer and foolisher, talk
of "inspiration") ; whereas, in fact, a prejudiced proposition,
idea, or "suggestion," which is generally their heart's desire
abstracted and refined, is defended by them with arguments
sought out after the event. They are all advocates who do
not wish to be regarded as such, generally astute defenders,
also, of their prejudices, which they dub "truths" ...
 
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They certainly aren't paying him that to replace Boldin.

So by disagreeing with me and saying this, you are saying that Burkhead will get carries this season over other RB's simply because he's being paid more?

The only point I made was that the Pats don't play favorites once training camp starts.
 
The TDs are a cherry-picking stat. Yay, you were on the 1 and scored, good work. Really, good work, that's nice. So maybe he should only get the ball inside the 5.

I bet Pete Carrol cherry-picked that stat before deciding on that rub route in SB 49.

SITUATIONAL FOOTBALL, not fantasy football. So what happens when you break down whether we could move the chains on 3rd down? Have you looked up that stat? How have we done in those situations previously? I'm not saying you break the bank to move the chains, and like I said, I'm not even making the pro-Blount argument. I'm just saying you need to look at whether he's a thing we don't have anymore if he's gone.

I'll add that with all the styles the Pats play, he'll be used for what he can do against each team... that's a uniquely Patriots thing and throws off a stat based analysis. If he stays, he doesn't break the bank. That's just economics. The questions are
1) what can he do here vs. what have we asked of him?
2) what's he worth elsewhere?

He averaged 3.9ypc for the season, 3.4 in the 2nd half of the season, and 3.1 in the playoffs. The league average for ypc is 4.0. That's "average" and "below average". The TDs help your fantasy team, but don't do much to tell you how good a RB is. As we saw in the Super Bowl, James White did it just as well.

I bolded that line because you've got it backwards. The TDs go on the scoreboard. You get points for them. If your team gets the most points in football you win. If you're unable to punch the ball in? That sorta hurts your team. If you're unable to rely on a runningback for a first down? That hurts your team.

I haven't even GOT the stat on whether he can get the 1, 2, 3 tough yards on 3rd down. Go look them up. You're characterizing Blount's 19 TDs as a non-factor. I'd say to the extent they're "vulture" back TDs from the 1, that would predict good performance at 3rd and short.

I know there have been many times when I was really unhappy about having the best QB in football, and being in a position where we're forced to take a sack because everybody knows you're going to pass.

Last point, if you want numbers to crunch: Take our use of him and divide by quarter. Like anybody else his YPC will SUCK in the first quarter and be fantastic in the 4th. You saw half of that equation in the Atlanta game. I remember it was a long time, even well into the 2nd half, when we "abandoned the run."

Early in the game you make teams tired if you've got that big tough-to-tackle guy. Does BB value that? I dunno. It just is.

These are the sorts of things you think of when you answer the question "Why did the Titans ever hold onto a stiff like Eddie George?"

I don't think Blount had a good SB either, and obviously White did. But the question as to his particular player value does remain. Even a cheap and dirty stats-only analysis, given the questions above, is incomplete (I.e., value on 3rd and short, runs by quarter, etc.) You could pick 100 metrics before making the "statistics by themselves..." argument if you're trying to distill them to a model of Blount's value.

(And by the way... if Blount wants to break the bank, the offseason after the SB where you fumble & don't rumble isn't the time to do it... however, the offseason after 19 TDs might be).

But he doesn't pretend shoot rifles with the Minutemen, so.

Hey, I don't know what they talk about in the bowels of Foxborough. I'm lucky on days when I can spell Foxborough. I will say that the Pats like to nail down those situational aspects, and that they'll see Blount as playing a role. If he sees himself as more than a role player, he'll likely get more elsewhere.

Another comparison: Antowain Smith. Total stiff. A "mudder" we called him. Well he looked like crap when Corey Dillon came here, then looked awful good when we were "transitioning" to Mr. 12-cuts-and-don't-go, Laurence Maroney. That little experiment, and some subsequent wandering in the 3rd-and-2 dessert, has made me value a move-the-chains-on-the-ground guy.

You can get a role-playing runningback cheap compared to a wideout or a cornerback. We CAN find that elsewhere (or the promise of it). And granted you have to keep buying that skillset, because buses are prone to breaking down.

So I'll leave it to the smart guys to figure out what value Blount represents, and I'll leave it to Blount to accept or reject what the smart guys say. But "ZOMG 3.9 YPC" isn't going to be the last word.
 
Can.

LeGarrette Blount 2016:

Until Week 10 (10 Games): 201 carries, 822 yds (4.1 ypc) 12 TD

After Week 10 (inc Playoffs, 9 Games): 133 carries, 449 yds (3.4 ypc) 7 TD


--
He was an average NFL back in the first half of the season, and well-below average in the second half. This is not opinion, these are irrefutable facts.

If your position is 'Yay I like Blount Force Trauma because Muskets", fine, then this post isn't for you. The absolute fact of the matter is, you can duplicate Blount's production in someone younger, faster, cheaper, more versatile and better.

Belichick will likely keep Blount like he kept Green-Ellis, like he kept Smith. They weren't very good, but they could pass block and didn't cost you games. If that's all you want, then fine, but I think the Patriots will be looking to get younger, faster and cheaper at the position.

What I want?? LOL! When the heck did THAT ever enter into this discussion?

I've only been talking about the pattern of how BB has handled the RB position in the past, especially since 2008, and about how Blount fits the pattern and a particular role, and then speculating about the Pats current options and contingencies.

You're focused exclusively on the 2017 53-man roster. I'm considering the possibilities for a 90-man Camp roster that provides the Pats with sufficient options from which they may be able to extract another SB-winning 53-man roster.

"Yay I like Blount Force Trauma because Muskets"?? Gee. I dunno. Contributing over 37% of the Pats' regular season TDs in 2016 doesn't seem like anything to turn my nose up over.

I don't personally care about Blount specifically one way or the other. I've merely been defending his clearly more-than-adequate contributions in the role he has played (as it fits the Pats' historical patterns) as a way of demonstrating how and why he has worked (and could still work) within the context of the Pats' offensive and roster-building schemes.

I've merely been defending Blount's contributions against people like you who seem to think that he's a piece of crap, a waste of roster space, and who are apparently certain that there's some guarantee that "the Pats can (will) do better".

Sure, the Pats are always "looking to get younger, faster and cheaper (aside from Burkhead's contract) at the position." Who isn't?

And, sure, there's a chance that Burkhead turns out to be the greatest Pats lead RB since Dillon (or, at least, more capable than Blount). But what if he doesn't turn out to be all that? What if he turns out to be very good, but gets injured? What if the Pats are NOT able to find someone "better than Blount" in free agency or the draft to back up Burkhead and/or reduce the necessity (and risk) of him trying to handle 300+ lead RB carries all by himself in 2017? What if, at pick #96, BB must chose between taking a superior edge-player/pass-rusher prospect and the one RB prospect who's, by far, the most suitable for the Pats?

Why is it that you are so absolutely certain that "anybody but Blount" would be a vastly superior contingency plan?

It seems to me that YOU have much deeper personal feelings about Blount than I do.
 
I'm definitely open to bringing back Blount. He works in our current system and he's proven.

However BB is always two steps ahead. The Burkhead signing surprised me but it shouldn't once I look at the player. Burkhead can both run and catch the football. This means when Burkhead is in, it doesn't tip off the defense that it's a run play.

The beauty and the downfall of Blount is that when he's in the formation, you know it's a 90% chance of being a run play. The beauty is that he still manages to convert a great deal of the time in that situation. I mean 19 rushing TDs, hard to argue with results right?

So Burkhead gives us versatility. He's relatively unproven though. He only had 74 carries last season to go along with 17 receptions in a reserve role. I have no idea if he has the upside to be the feature back -- #1 RB in the offense but chances are he doesn't need to. Because on 3rd downs he is most likely giving way to Dion Lewis or White.

I'd expect us to double up our RB options by spending a mid round pick on a running back, a 3rd, 4th. or even 5th can get you a good one if your scouting is astute.

I'm sure Blount is shopping himself around after a very good season. If another team overpays, I don't think he's coming back. But I expect the door to be open for a return to the Pats if he can't get a great offer in free agency.
 
What I want?? LOL! When the heck did THAT ever enter into this discussion?

I've only been talking about the pattern of how BB has handled the RB position in the past, especially since 2008, and about how Blount fits the pattern and a particular role, and then speculating about the Pats current options and contingencies.

You're focused exclusively on the 2017 53-man roster. I'm considering the possibilities for a 90-man Camp roster that provides the Pats with sufficient options from which they may be able to extract another SB-winning 53-man roster.

"Yay I like Blount Force Trauma because Muskets"?? Gee. I dunno. Contributing over 37% of the Pats' regular season TDs in 2016 doesn't seem like anything to turn my nose up over.

I don't personally care about Blount specifically one way or the other. I've merely been defending his clearly more-than-adequate contributions in the role he has played (as it fits the Pats' historical patterns) as a way of demonstrating how and why he has worked (and could still work) within the context of the Pats' offensive and roster-building schemes.

I've merely been defending Blount's contributions against people like you who seem to think that he's a piece of crap, a waste of roster space, and who are apparently certain that there's some guarantee that "the Pats can (will) do better".

Sure, the Pats are always "looking to get younger, faster and cheaper (aside from Burkhead's contract) at the position." Who isn't?

And, sure, there's a chance that Burkhead turns out to be the greatest Pats lead RB since Dillon (or, at least, more capable than Blount). But what if he doesn't turn out to be all that? What if he turns out to be very good, but gets injured? What if the Pats are NOT able to find someone "better than Blount" in free agency or the draft to back up Burkhead and/or reduce the necessity (and risk) of him trying to handle 300+ lead RB carries all by himself in 2017? What if, at pick #96, BB must chose between taking a superior edge-player/pass-rusher prospect and the one RB prospect who's, by far, the most suitable for the Pats?

Why is it that you are so absolutely certain that "anybody but Blount" would be a vastly superior contingency plan?

It seems to me that YOU have much deeper personal feelings about Blount than I do.

One stat that likely weighs heavily in Blount's favor: 7 > 3. Even 6 > 3, if Gost is not on his game.

I don't know where these TDs are from, if you do a breakdown. But my whole thing is do the breakdown.

And if you find they're all from the 1 or the 2? Fine. Figure out what that's worth to BB.

Maybe he doesn't mind poor red zone production but considers performance between the 20s very important. I think not.

Those are stats to put into the grinder, if we're doing this by stats. You need a better methodology than raw YPC... and that's to basically build a stat model of what Blount gets us.

BTW, knock out games against one terrible run D if you want... but then knock out the games against bad defenses for other backs when you're doing your evaluation.

Serious, COME ON MAN.

And again - I'm not a Blount partisan either, I'm just sayin.
 
There is a statistic that many use to measure a RB, beyond ypc. It is called "successful runs". It adds up all runs that a) result in.more than 4.x ypc, Plus b) all runs that result in a FD, plus c) all runs that result in a TD. This measure rewards the runner who can make the tough yard but minimal ypc and the spectacular long run.

Some also add the runs that result in the first defender missing the tackle, to discount poor blocking as well.

This is frequently expressed as a percentage.
 
There is a statistic that many use to measure a RB, beyond ypc. It is called "successful runs". It adds up all runs that a) result in.more than 4.x ypc, Plus b) all runs that result in a FD, plus c) all runs that result in a TD. This measure rewards the runner who can make the tough yard but minimal ypc and the spectacular long run.

Some also add the runs that result in the first defender missing the tackle, to discount poor blocking as well.

This is frequently expressed as a percentage.

Well that sounds useful... that is a Football Outsiders stat, and apparently the guy you want is Mike Gillislee from Buffalo. Blount's number 28 of 42 ranked. Of course, Gillislee had the bare minimum carries to be considered +1 (101) and Blount had the second-largest sample size after Ezekiel Elliott. So while you can't complain there's not enough to go by for Blount, you certainly can say that for Gillislee. Elliott's also number 2 in success rate, so the obvious move is to trade for Ezekiel Elliott.

On the other hand, a guy with more "effective yards" than actual yards indicates a guy whose yards are tougher to come by, and the difference there is pretty big for Blount. He's also 14 in something called DYAR which is supposed to determine a back's total value. Pretty average guy, according to this stat factory. I don't know if BB uses football outsiders though :)

FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Innovative Statistics, Intelligent Analysis | RUNNING BACKS 2016

Again, not a Blount partisan. In BB I trust.
 
Here are the raw stats.

LeGarrette Blount

18 touchdowns
67 first downs
299 carries

85 of 299 carries were a first down or a touchdown.

Splits:
LeGarrette Blount

Since you guys are too damn lazy I looked. This is pretty interesting. He wears down as the game goes on - so higher YPC in 1st quarter than later in game. Of course, that can be a false indicator, where he's being used to move chains as the game goes on, but I'd bet you'd find the opposite for most backs.

Q1 - 4.6
Q2 - 2.9
Q3 - 3.9
Q4 - 3.9

Down and distance, and this might go to my initial point about his value to "make sure" when it's third and short:
3rd (or 4th) down and 1-2 yards to go 19 attempts, 5.6 ypc, 5 TDs

When winning, 3.8 ypc; when trailing 3.3 ypc; when tied 4.7 ypc. Interesting.

And a few other stats. By the way, if the play direction is left or right sideline, he's pretty good, based on 41 total runs to the sidelines. 7.4 and 8.7 ypc, respectively.

In the really red zone (10 yards and less), TERRIBLE YPC.
OPP 10-GOAL 42 carries, 67 yards, 1.6 yards per carry... and 15 touchtowns.

That red zone stat is probably only important for teams that stress red zone efficiency over total yards, once again :)

This is just what it is. It starts to give you a better picture. It's not a slam dunk either way, just the numbers.
 
Guarantee that Mixon is not on the Pats Draft Board as being Draftable.. Not with the damning video out there.
I'm thinking Mixon is going to be long gone before the Pats would be willing to take him. But that being said. The kid made an impulse error of massive proportions 3 years ago. He paid an enormous price at the time, and will pay an enormous price in millions in lost revenue coming out. Plus I'm sure now that he will have some money, a civil suit will follow that will cost him even more...and I'm fine with that.

The point is he made a horrible mistake, is still paying for that mistake, and will CONTINUE to pay for the mistake in the future. But this isn't close to being somethig I think the Pats would take someone off their board for. He isn't an abuser of women. There is no domestic violence. No rape accusations. He got shoved and lashed out. It was wrong only in that it was a woman who shoved him, and he SHOULD have known better. Would anyone really care if his adversary had been a guy? Again not trying to excuse the encounter, but understand it in the context of an entire life.

If he had a history of these violent outbursts toward women, or accused of domestic violence, or rape, then I'd be the first to be for taking him off the board. But if every man was punished forever for a momentary impulse mistake, especially when alcohol was involved, then few of us would have survived into maturity. I know I wouldn't have made it. Not even close.

If he is still there when we pick in the 130's or with that pick in the 4th, I think we'd be crazy not to take him. However, I think he'll be long gone before we get to the 3rd round, let alone to the end of that round.

Back to the origninal topic. If he's still there after the draft, I'd love to have LGB back with the team trying to compete for a job, no different than last year. When he came back last year, we all thought he was camp fodder, and he WON the job. It will cost very little to let him compete again.
 
So by disagreeing with me and saying this, you are saying that Burkhead will get carries this season over other RB's simply because he's being paid more?

The only point I made was that the Pats don't play favorites once training camp starts.
No, I'm saying they didn't bring him in to replace Boldin. If he can't do more than that, I expect they'll be bitterly disappointed. I will venture to guess that he gets more carries than Boldin.
 
Exactly.
I had viewed him as a Bolden upgrade.
I was wrong.
Obviously, from the contract signed BB views him quite differently than that.
Hope he's right.

I think that BB views him as being a Bolden upgrade at worst.. At best, he becomes 3 down back for the Pats who was misused by the Bengals..
 
I'd love to see Blount back with the Patriots. They use him well and the blocking schemes work for him on supposed running downs. He can pick his way past the big guys or become a big blocker himself.

The other thing about Blount is that he loves the way the Pats use him and seems genuinely happy for his fellow backs when they do well. He was so jazzed for Lewis when he had a big game after returning from injury, and was thrilled for James White in the Super Bowl.

I don't think YPC or TDs mean much in this context. The Patriots are not in the market for a 300+ carry running back. His 299 carries in 2016 was entirely a function of the Brady suspension and the nine games Dion Lewis missed.

The Patriots know how to spread the rock around. It takes a special kind of back to fit in this system, and Blount seems to thrive in it.
 
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