NE met with Waddle - WADDLE IS HERE TO STAY

[GoBlue]

Belichick is not going to depend upon Waddle to be his LT. Waddle has always show a lot of potential. He played great his rookie year in Detroit and then was injured and it took him forever to rehab. He has been injured a couple of more times with significant time off. He's probably okay to keep around as a backup with backup pay.

 

[Jimke]

Why not?

1) No rookie comes with a guarantee. Period. Doesn't matter when they're drafted - especially not with Scar in charge of OL development.

2) Even assuming that the consensus evaluation of OT prospects in this draft is more or less accurate (it's often way off wrt OL, especially recently), the "best" of them all seem likely to be off the board by pick #15 or so. It would require the Pats to trade to #31 + #43 to get up into that range, leaving them with the #63, #95, #136, #210 and #219 to cover the rest of their roster needs in this draft.

The higher the draft pick, the more chance that player has to make the team. Solder,
Vollmer, Light, Armstrong were all high draft picks. Offensive left tackle is the greatest
need. There is a 40 year old GOAT to protect. Trade up if necessary to get the best
available left tackle. Too much emphasis on number of draft picks. Can pick up a
couple of UDFAs like last year.

 

[Ring 6]

With Brady's quick release, you don't necessarily need a Solder type. Just someone who will get the job done. Maybe that's Waddle, maybe that's a draft pick.

There is some merit to that but there are still a lot of plays that are slow developing, and require good pass blocking. I would say brady eliminates the rush maybe 10% more than a typical qb but if we cannot use slower devolving plays, including play action, and throw the ball down the field we become a hell of a lot easier to defend.
I also agree we can scheme around a deficiency to a degree, but pass protection is a critical element.
And the comment I was responding to said anyone better than suck is as good as solder and that is totally ridiculous.

 

[mgteich]

With Brady's quick release, you don't necessarily need a Solder type. Just someone who will get the job done. Maybe that's Waddle, maybe that's a draft pick.

Last year, Brady got hit way too much, up a lot from 2016. We need better protection, not worse.

 

[PatsFan2]

The Patriots do have the Draft capital to move up in the First they can use their Third or their later Second. If there Guy a certain Left Tackle is still on the board. That said if a really nice pass rusher is there we can't rule that out either. I really do not want BB to sit on the picks he has not Drafted well in the Second in spite of Gronk and Vollmer.

 

[Sicilian]

With Brady's quick release, you don't necessarily need a Solder type. Just someone who will get the job done. Maybe that's Waddle, maybe that's a draft pick.

While Brady's release (and quick decision making) does help to mitigate a skill difference on the OL, there's absolutely a ton of value to having a better player there.

For one, against physical secondaries, plays take long to develop. Teams that want to bracket Gronk can do so much easier if they know they don't have to run with him longer than 3 seconds. But if Brady has time, you could triple team Gronk and eventually he will break free, he's too good.

For another, the Patriots utilize the athleticism of their linemen quite a bit. Solder was good at getting outside on screens, etc. With the addition of Patterson, the potential for those kinds of plays has gone up a tick, and having a good, athletic LT would help spring some of those into monster gains.

 

[mgteich]

I tend to agree. However, there may be little difference between LT's available at 31 and in the 60's. In any case, we don't know how the team evaluates Garcia or Croston. Croston beat out the 6th rounder last year, and was considered a 1-2 year project.

It is quite possible that Cannon-Fleming would be all that Belichick wants, with Tobin and Croston as backups, and Garcia on PUP, or another list.

The higher the draft pick, the more chance that player has to make the team. Solder,
Vollmer, Light, Armstrong were all high draft picks. Offensive left tackle is the greatest
need. There is a 40 year old GOAT to protect. Trade up if necessary to get the best
available left tackle. Too much emphasis on number of draft picks. Can pick up a
couple of UDFAs like last year.

To put it another way, if Garcia and last year's 6th were ready to contribute, then there wouldn't be much discussion of another high draft choice. We would simply be signing a bridge in free agency (Waddle or Fleming, now that Solder can't fill that role).

 

[maineman209]

The higher the draft pick, the more chance that player has to make the team. Solder,
Vollmer, Light, Armstrong were all high draft picks. Offensive left tackle is the greatest
need. There is a 40 year old GOAT to protect. Trade up if necessary to get the best
available left tackle. Too much emphasis on number of draft picks. Can pick up a
couple of UDFAs like last year.

"Making the team" and developing quickly into a starting caliber player are not equivalent.

 

[PatsFan2]

They might have something with Andrew Jelks glad he got the year off after those unfortunate injuries. If he can get through a TC healthy we might have gotten a decent one for nothing. Cole Croston certainly lived up to his draft profile a guy who needs at least a year on a Taxi squad to iron somethings out. BB and Scar definitively have s few Offensive Tackles to throw at the wall Garcia included maybe one of them will stick.

 

[Jimke]

"Making the team" and developing quickly into a starting caliber player are not equivalent.

A high draft pick has a better chance of making the team and developing into a starting
play

"Making the team" and developing quickly into a starting caliber player are not equivalent.

A high draft pick has a better chance of making the team and developing into a
starting player than a low ranked draft pick or undrafted player.

 

[maineman209]

A high draft pick has a better chance of making the team and developing into a starting
play

A high draft pick has a better chance of making the team and developing into a
starting player than a low ranked draft pick or undrafted player.

Nope.

 

[mgteich]

Nope.

You don't believe that higher drafted players have a better chance to make the team, and to become starters?

 

[maineman209]

You don't believe that higher drafted players have a better chance to make the team, and to become starters?

Here's what I believe:

The draft is NOT a very good predictor of NFL success. It's not an objective measure of "talent". It represents the consensus on a very rough measure of potential, that, more often than not, becomes a popularity contest.

That said, in the context of all of the 31 other teams, a prospect drafted in the 1st round is certain to "make the team", and is almost certain to be installed as a starter in his rookie season, almost regardless of the flaws in his game - due to the ego of ownership and the job security fears of FO and coaching employees. He's also almost certain to receive the majority of the coaches attention - often at the expense of the development of later-round draftees and UDFAs - for pretty much the same reasons.

While many such high draftees do work out to be decent to high-end contributors (sooner or later), nearly as many don't. And many of those who do become multi-year "starters" end up being no better than, and often worse than, player drafted in the 3rd, 6th, or signed as as UDFA.

WRT the Pats, specifically, in spite of the fact that they rarely draft high in the first round (or any round, unless they've traded into that position), have had a somewhat greater success rate than most teams, mainly because they do all their own scouting (and even they still get it wrong - just not as often). IOW, if the Pats were to trade up in the first to take an LT, the odds are significantly high that the prospect will be successful - because it's the Pats.

However, the notion that it's somehow inherently worth it for the Pats to trade up for an LT prospect "because the odds of him making the team and becoming a starter" are in some not-quite-objective measure are "greater" --- nope.

The Pats will evaluate all the prospects as objectively as they can (while completely ignoring the media hype that gets fan engines revving), and then take the prospect who they think has the best potential to succeed at doing what they need him to do. And they'll take him when they need to based on how popular he is among the other 31 teams - no sooner, no later. If there's a lot of competition from other teams, they'll take him earlier. If there's not so much, they'll take him later.

 

[TheFlyingWedge]

Serviceable left tackles don’t grow on trees. Hope they sign him.

 

[Jimke]

The sad fact is that the only good option at LT this free agency was Nate Solder.
This is why the Giants stepped up and stole him away.

 

[mgteich]

You are likely to be one of the very few with your view. The last was the owner of the Redskins decades ago.

If what you said were true for Belichick, then he should trade away all his top picks for veterans, or for later picks. This is the case because you value an early picks. For other others, our 1st is worth at least a 2nd, 3rd and 4th. Our seconds could also be traded down. Then the picks could be traded for players.

To put it another way.

Is there an LB who would compete to start that could be available for a 2nd? Is there a backup TE that could be available for a 2nd? Is the a LB or LT who could be available for a 1st. of course, there are. And Belichick might made a trade or two.

However you view is very "extreme". If I have an equal chance to find a starting quality LT in the 4th, 5th or 6th round, it would be crazy to use top picks for such needs. Ditto at other positions.

Here's what I believe:

The draft is NOT a very good predictor of NFL success. It's not an objective measure of "talent". It represents the consensus on a very rough measure of potential, that, more often than not, becomes a popularity contest.

That said, in the context of all of the 31 other teams, a prospect drafted in the 1st round is certain to "make the team", and is almost certain to be installed as a starter in his rookie season, almost regardless of the flaws in his game - due to the ego of ownership and the job security fears of FO and coaching employees. He's also almost certain to receive the majority of the coaches attention - often at the expense of the development of later-round draftees and UDFAs - for pretty much the same reasons.

While many such high draftees do work out to be decent to high-end contributors (sooner or later), nearly as many don't. And many of those who do become multi-year "starters" end up being no better than, and often worse than, player drafted in the 3rd, 6th, or signed as as UDFA.

WRT the Pats, specifically, in spite of the fact that they rarely draft high in the first round (or any round, unless they've traded into that position), have had a somewhat greater success rate than most teams, mainly because they do all their own scouting (and even they still get it wrong - just not as often). IOW, if the Pats were to trade up in the first to take an LT, the odds are significantly high that the prospect will be successful - because it's the Pats.

However, the notion that it's somehow inherently worth it for the Pats to trade up for an LT prospect "because the odds of him making the team and becoming a starter" are in some not-quite-objective measure are "greater" --- nope.

The Pats will evaluate all the prospects as objectively as they can (while completely ignoring the media hype that gets fan engines revving), and then take the prospect who they think has the best potential to succeed at doing what they need him to do. And they'll take him when they need to based on how popular he is among the other 31 teams - no sooner, no later. If there's a lot of competition from other teams, they'll take him earlier. If there's not so much, they'll take him later.

 

[DW Toys]

It seems extremely doubtful to me that a rookie LT for this draft class - one who would likely be available to the Pats when they pick - would be "ready to take over for Solder".

Maine Cousin,
I know people on this forum love Miller, but he might not be the best fit at LT. In fact, thought and theory has him on the right side.Even if he is there at #31, we have to look at "best player available" and LB, LB, DE Edge or TE are also important.

Rankins was the SEC best rated left Tackle;

Rankin was a first-team All-SEC pick in 2017. Rankin's length and lateral agility made him a tough blocker to beat on the outside, and he brings a strong punch and active feet in the run game, as well.

Pretty good accomplishment in the SEC.
Why am I preaching? Because we can get him in Round 2.

I would prefer Connor Williams. After 2016 he was a top ten pick. Slowed with injuries this year. He will slide too.

My preferred Draft picks in a perfect world with updated picks:
ROUND 1
#31 DE Tavin

ROUND 2
#43 LB Vander Esch
#63 OT Rankins

ROUND 3
#95 TE Gesicki

ROUND 4
#138 QB Lauletta

ROUND 5
#159 CB Holton Hill

ROUND 7
#219 WR Daurice Fountain

But in the real world BB will play his swap games; Some suggestions:

Swap with Cleveland because they can take Barkley at #4 and swap the #1 pick with Buffalo for #12, #22 and Bills #1 pick in 2019. In a very unusual situation I see the Broncos using pick #5 on Baker Mayfield and trading Paxton Lynch. Keenum is just a two year signing.

In our real world BB Swap-O-Rama-We get our OT earlier and wind up with a young QB? Who ?Paxton Lynch. I hear the boos. Think about this. Elway had his hand in the selection and he is a QB. He admitted Lynch did not have enough snaps. I don't think Lynch is a fit as mostly a drop back QB and Keenum and Baker roll out more. I admit Manning was the exception, but he was Manning.

Might I suggest:
The Browns will search for blue chjp bodies with three first rounders and hope for a QB in Round #2. The 5 year rule is our advantage here. The Browns swap with us at #31 to get Lamar Jackson (who fits the offense similar to Taylor). We add pick #43 in the second and they give us picks #33, #35 and #114 in the Fourth Round. The Value Chart numbers work.

After picking up some needed O line help in Round One, The Chargers need a heir replacement to Rivers. We swap them pick #33 for their second round pick #48 and third Round pick #84 (again the Value Chart works) They tab QB Mason Rudolph.

So we know have picks:
ROUND 2
#35 OT Connor Williams
#48 OLB Vander Esch
#63 TE Hurst

ROUND 3
#84 Edge Rush Arden Key IF HE SLIPS (if not a CB)
#95 ILB Josey Jewell

ROUND 4
#114 TRADE-Broncos for QB Paxton Lynch
#138 QB-Logan Woodside

ROUND 5
#159 TRADE-Eagles for OLB Mychal Kendricks

ROUND 7
#219 WR/PR Daurice Fountain

Just spitballin. Like to get an OT early but not at #31.

Just for fun Mock Draft thrown in.
DW Toys

 

[maineman209]

You are likely to be one of the very few with your view. The last was the owner of the Redskins decades ago.

If what you said were true for Belichick, then he should trade away all his top picks for veterans, or for later picks. This is the case because you value an early picks. For other others, our 1st is worth at least a 2nd, 3rd and 4th. Our seconds could also be traded down. Then the picks could be traded for players.

To put it another way.

Is there an LB who would compete to start that could be available for a 2nd? Is there a backup TE that could be available for a 2nd? Is the a LB or LT who could be available for a 1st. of course, there are. And Belichick might made a trade or two.

However you view is very "extreme". If I have an equal chance to find a starting quality LT in the 4th, 5th or 6th round, it would be crazy to use top picks for such needs. Ditto at other positions.

A draft pick merely represents a place in line. The ordinal place of the pick merely represents how many of the original total number of optional choices are now off the board. At the #31 pick, you have precisely 12 more options than you will at #43. The total number of options available always exceeds 256.

 

[primetime]

So your position is the guy who just became the highest paid ol in nfl history was just a tick above terrible? Ok

Correct, my position is that Solder was at best a league average left tackle. I can think of twenty better starting left tackles.

 

[holyredeemer]

The higher the draft pick, the more chance that player has to make the team. Solder,
Vollmer, Light, Armstrong were all high draft picks. Offensive left tackle is the greatest
need. There is a 40 year old GOAT to protect. Trade up if necessary to get the best
available left tackle. Too much emphasis on number of draft picks. Can pick up a
couple of UDFAs like last year.

The problem with this is that you’re assuming the Patriots value any of the LT’s. If they have a high grade, then yeah, I don’t mind. But you don’t trade up just for the sake of trading up to grab the highest tackle. It doesn’t work that way.