Johnny Manziel visiting Patriots

[Joker]

Fran Tarkenton....Roger Staubach...Joe Theisman...Jeff Hostetler..Steve Young...John Elway...all made Super Bowls.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

He has a face I would never tire of punching

really? you'd say that to his face and then be ready to go one on one with him in a dark alley late at night? i'd be betting on the guy with the trophy and a few hours in the gym and weight room every day...just sayin'...

 

[PatsFanSince74]

This thread has turned out to be a good discussion, despite its potential for idiotic comments, which have been few and far between.

Since the only folks who know the "real" reason why BB is having "Johnny Football" (that nick is a pretty good argument for NOT meeting him) in for a visit can be counted on one hand, we're all free to speculate. Here's my two cents:

1) I don't think Belichick would waste time with any player in whom he didn't have some interest. Next to what's in his brain, "time" is BB's most valuable asset. I don't think he would spend it trying to get a read on a QB whom he might or might not face in two or three seasons, when there will be miles of game "tape" from college and the NFL for him, the best X's and O's guy in the history of the League, to review.

2) So, I think it means that he's wondering whether he should pick Manziel if he pulls a Geno Smith and falls down the board. Nothing ventured, nothing gained, even if the scenario is unlikely. I think it means that he's seen something in Manziel that he thinks might be for real and he wants to look him in the eye; whatever that "something" is has escaped me, but I kind of don't know as much about football talent as Bill Belichick.

3) The fallout from meeting Manziel could mean that he would be able to drive a harder bargain if a team desperate for a QB wanted to trade up from the second round if he were available, along the lines of "Listen, I have other holes to plug and the guy I already got is probably the GOAT and good for another couple of years, but I just had to meet with Manziel because I thought he was a special talent; after I did I came to the conclusion that, even though he doesn't fit with our plans this year, he's the real deal so, you're gonna have to give me..."

4) There is also the chance that he would decide that Manziel is a once in a generation talent and would throw the dice to trade up for him; Mallett is apparently ready to go as an NFL starter, trained by the best and an understudy to Brady. As I have already said, that's not what I think, but...

Beyond that, you're guess is as good as mine, so I wouldn't try to change your mind.

 

[Ring 6]

This thread has turned out to be a good discussion, despite its potential for idiotic comments, which have been few and far between.

Since the only folks who know the "real" reason why BB is having "Johnny Football" (that nick is a pretty good argument for NOT meeting him) in for a visit can be counted on one hand, we're all free to speculate. Here's my two cents:

1) I don't think Belichick would waste time with any player in whom he didn't have some interest. Next to what's in his brain, "time" is BB's most valuable asset. I don't think he would spend it trying to get a read on a QB whom he might or might not face in two or three seasons, when there will be miles of game "tape" from college and the NFL for him, the best X's and O's guy in the history of the League, to review.

2) So, I think it means that he's wondering whether he should pick Manziel if he pulls a Geno Smith and falls down the board. Nothing ventured, nothing gained, even if the scenario is unlikely. I think it means that he's seen something in Manziel that he thinks might be for real and he wants to look him in the eye; whatever that "something" is has escaped me, but I kind of don't know as much about football talent as Bill Belichick.

3) The fallout from meeting Manziel could mean that he would be able to drive a harder bargain if a team desperate for a QB wanted to trade up from the second round if he were available, along the lines of "Listen, I have other holes to plug and the guy I already got is probably the GOAT and good for another couple of years, but I just had to meet with Manziel because I thought he was a special talent; after I did I came to the conclusion that, even though he doesn't fit with our plans this year, he's the real deal so, you're gonna have to give me..."

4) There is also the chance that he would decide that Manziel is a once in a generation talent and would throw the dice to trade up for him; Mallett is apparently ready to go as an NFL starter, trained by the best and an understudy to Brady. As I have already said, that's not what I think, but...

Beyond that, you're guess is as good as mine, so I wouldn't try to change your mind.

My take:

Although Brady expects to play many more years, and we all hope he will, of course the organization has to be prepared for the chance that he will not.
It isn't the worst thing in the world to need to find the next QB quickly, because frankly, its not much different than promoting the guy sitting on the bench. But if you feel QBs you rate high enough to believe they can be the replacement, you have to consider them.
Considering them, IMO, is doing what you do with every draftee and placing a grade and value on them. In addition to all of the other evaluations, meeting them helps solidify that rating. I think we can all agree that an "interview" is more necessary and valuable at the QB position than any other.

With an accurate grade and rating on the player, you can potentially move up or down throughout the draft to get him at a point of value. I think BB will have a grade and also a spot in the draft that he finds them as great value given all of the other circumstances and will probably move into that pick if that QB is there, assuming he sees him as the replacement. If Brady plays 5 more years, then you used a pick to be safe, which many fans would call stupid but is the kind of prudent thinking that has kept us on top for so long.

 

[Ring 6]

really? you'd say that to his face and then be ready to go one on one with him in a dark alley late at night? i'd be betting on the guy with the trophy and a few hours in the gym and weight room every day...just sayin'...

Please do not feed the internet tough guys

 

[PatsFanSince74]

My take:

Although Brady expects to play many more years, and we all hope he will, of course the organization has to be prepared for the chance that he will not.
It isn't the worst thing in the world to need to find the next QB quickly, because frankly, its not much different than promoting the guy sitting on the bench. But if you feel QBs you rate high enough to believe they can be the replacement, you have to consider them.
Considering them, IMO, is doing what you do with every draftee and placing a grade and value on them. In addition to all of the other evaluations, meeting them helps solidify that rating. I think we can all agree that an "interview" is more necessary and valuable at the QB position than any other.

With an accurate grade and rating on the player, you can potentially move up or down throughout the draft to get him at a point of value. I think BB will have a grade and also a spot in the draft that he finds them as great value given all of the other circumstances and will probably move into that pick if that QB is there, assuming he sees him as the replacement. If Brady plays 5 more years, then you used a pick to be safe, which many fans would call stupid but is the kind of prudent thinking that has kept us on top for so long.

Yeah. I like that analysis. Thanks.

 

[JoeSixPat]

I'm going to go out on a limb and hypothesize that Belichick is bringing in other top QB draft prospects as smokescreen for their interest in working out Logan Thomas, the 6'6" 250 lb qb with the strong arm from Va Tech

Thomas started out as a TE and remains a developmental QB, though one with tremendous upside - but he'd truly need a few years of NFL development

Meanwhile, as with Edelman, Belichick is always interested in considering QB to receiver conversions, as they've often worked well. In this case Thomas easily projects back to his TE roots, filling a "want" of Belichick - i.e. a 6' 6" TE alongside Gronk.

It's a worthwhile gamble, depending on where Thomas might fall, addressing TE and having a potential QB of the future on the roster with size and a strong arm who can learn both behind Brady and as a receiver

Assuming he can still play TE - and I'd guess he can given how impressive his combine results were - it'd be a low risk, exceptionally high reward scenario, addressing TE and backup QB in one move (and maybe franchise QB of the future as well)

But having Manziel etc. in certainly seemed to help divert everyone's attention from their workout of Thomas, and I don't think that was an accident

 

[mgteich]

So, Belichick is using two of his limited visits to interview top QB's to divert attention away from his possible interest in a 6th rounder (being generous, some think 7th or UDFA).

I'm going to go out on a limb and hypothesize that Belichick is bringing in other top QB draft prospects as smokescreen for their interest in working out Logan Thomas, the 6'6" 250 lb qb with the strong arm from Va Tech

Thomas started out as a TE and remains a developmental QB, though one with tremendous upside - but he'd truly need a few years of NFL development

Meanwhile, as with Edelman, Belichick is always interested in considering QB to receiver conversions, as they've often worked well. In this case Thomas easily projects back to his TE roots, filling a "want" of Belichick - i.e. a 6' 6" TE alongside Gronk.

It's a worthwhile gamble, depending on where Thomas might fall, addressing TE and having a potential QB of the future on the roster with size and a strong arm who can learn both behind Brady and as a receiver

Assuming he can still play TE - and I'd guess he can given how impressive his combine results were - it'd be a low risk, exceptionally high reward scenario, addressing TE and backup QB in one move (and maybe franchise QB of the future as well)

But having Manziel etc. in certainly seemed to help divert everyone's attention from their workout of Thomas, and I don't think that was an accident

 

[Joker]

we'll find out, won't we...?

 

[Tunescribe]

we'll find out, won't we...?

Not if this happens:

 

[ctpatsfan77]

So, Belichick is using two of his limited visits to interview top QB's to divert attention away from his possible interest in a 6th rounder (being generous, some think 7th or UDFA).

To play Devil's advocate, they did bring in both Pat White and Julian Edelman, and it's pretty darn likely they had more interest in the latter than the former.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

Assuming he can still play TE - and I'd guess he can given how impressive his combine results were - it'd be a low risk, exceptionally high reward scenario, addressing TE and backup QB in one move (and maybe franchise QB of the future as well)

They can't—or at least won't—do both simultaneously.

 

[crew1954]

Gisele knows make-up.

Giselle knows where to sit.

 

[james87654]

We need some of Manziel's swag. Gisele has emasculated Tom.

 

[Ring 6]

To play Devil's advocate, they did bring in both Pat White and Julian Edelman, and it's pretty darn likely they had more interest in the latter than the former.

Why is that obvious? White was drafted in the 2nd round, and Edelman in the 7th. We don't know who they had rated higher.

 

[JoeSixPat]

So, Belichick is using two of his limited visits to interview top QB's to divert attention away from his possible interest in a 6th rounder (being generous, some think 7th or UDFA).

I know - crazy - its not like Belichick ever engages in any subterfuge... He's an open book

The only thing crazier would be Belichick having Tebow in for a visit when he was a draft prospect... And we know that would never happen

 

[RayClay]

I know - crazy - its not like Belichick ever engages in any subterfuge... He's an open book

The only thing crazier would be Belichick having Tebow in for a visit when he was a draft prospect... And we know that would never happen

Sure does look like a TE project.

 

[JoeSixPat]

Sure does look like a TE project.

Agreed

Though while we're on the topic, I don't give this guy Edelman much of a chance at making it in the NFL as a WR/return specialist either, as he never played those positions before and he's only 5' 10"

Thomas on the other hand was a high school TE and was recruited to play TE in college but made the switch to QB early on - so going back to his roots as a TE isn't quite the stretch everyone seems to think it is

In fact, like many NFL watchers I actually give him a better shot at TE in the NFL than QB, but just figure it's a low risk high reward if he can contribute even as a goal line specialist given his 6' 6" frame, speed and athleticism

But that's just crazy talk - Belichick is a traditionalist and doesn't think out of the box, or else he'd have a history of doing things like converting LBs to TEs too (*cough Mike Vrabel cough*)



I've really got no idea why Belichick has had Manziel and the other top QBs in for visits as I don't think they will slide anywhere near enough to have him pull the trigger (and even then they wouldn't contribute in games), but I think the NFL historian in him likes to meet these guys, and Belichick is too smart to telegraph his TRUE draft plans by actually meeting with all the guys he's serious about drafting

(a lower key below the radar workout with Thomas while everyone else is talking about his meeting with Manziel etc. is more his style for a guy he's thinking of taking)

But with Belichick pulling the trigger relatively high in the draft on guys like Kevin O'Connell and Ryan Mallett LONG before there was even the thought of a post-Brady QB, Thomas makes a LOT more sense than them, as unlike those other QBs he has the potential to contribute on the field even as he develops his QB skills in the background for 3+ years

If he takes Thomas it wouldn't surprise me if he did so before everyone else in the NFL thinks he represents "value" as Belichick knows if there's a guy you want you need to take him before someone else does - which often results in the accusation of a "reach" by the fanbase.

 

[JoeSixPat]

They can't—or at least won't—do both simultaneously.

I agree - that's the weakest link of my theory.

Belichick would probably agree that when it comes to developing a key position like QB, one really needs to focus on THAT position and not try to learn two positions.

But again, if we're talking about Thomas as a TE role player like Vrabel in goal line situations, they might not be asking him to focus too much on TE, just using his natural skills in a specific situation.

So I think Vrabel is the key comparison here. Did asking him to play goal line TE undermine his effectiveness/development as a LB learning Belichick's defense? I'd say not. In fact I'd say he played both roles pretty well with the vast majority of his practice time devoted to LB and not TE.

Dropping in a 6'6" former TE with quickness and athleticism as a goal line TE will certainly grab the attention of a defense the same way Vrabel did (and even once teams began LOOKING for Vrabel as a TE in those situations, he remained effective, despite not spending a lot of time "learning" the TE role)

 

[RayClay]

Agreed

Though while we're on the topic, I don't give this guy Edelman much of a chance at making it in the NFL as a WR/return specialist either, as he never played those positions before and he's only 5' 10"

Thomas on the other hand was a high school TE and was recruited to play TE in college but made the switch to QB early on - so going back to his roots as a TE isn't quite the stretch everyone seems to think it is

In fact, like many NFL watchers I actually give him a better shot at TE in the NFL than QB, but just figure it's a low risk high reward if he can contribute even as a goal line specialist given his 6' 6" frame, speed and athleticism

But that's just crazy talk - Belichick is a traditionalist and doesn't think out of the box, or else he'd have a history of doing things like converting LBs to TEs too (*cough Mike Vrabel cough*)



I've really got no idea why Belichick has had Manziel and the other top QBs in for visits as I don't think they will slide anywhere near enough to have him pull the trigger (and even then they wouldn't contribute in games), but I think the NFL historian in him likes to meet these guys, and Belichick is too smart to telegraph his TRUE draft plans by actually meeting with all the guys he's serious about drafting

(a lower key below the radar workout with Thomas while everyone else is talking about his meeting with Manziel etc. is more his style for a guy he's thinking of taking)

But with Belichick pulling the trigger relatively high in the draft on guys like Kevin O'Connell and Ryan Mallett LONG before there was even the thought of a post-Brady QB, Thomas makes a LOT more sense than them, as unlike those other QBs he has the potential to contribute on the field even as he develops his QB skills in the background for 3+ years

If he takes Thomas it wouldn't surprise me if he did so before everyone else in the NFL thinks he represents "value" as Belichick knows if there's a guy you want you need to take him before someone else does - which often results in the accusation of a "reach" by the fanbase.

That's what I said, he looks like a TE project. Did you read something else into that?

He hasn't played TE since high school, but i doubt they are drafting him as a QB, because he's not that good.

It would be just like Edelman.