PatsFans.com Menu
PatsFans.com - The Hub For New England Patriots Fans

How Many Titles Would Belichick Have WITHOUT Brady?


Status
Not open for further replies.
Next up for your viewing pleasure, "Where would Bill Parcells be without Bill Belichick???"...

About once a year this idiotic discussion takes place, with very predictable results..
 
Honestly, it's amazing to me that in 2017, with Brady's age, we have people who are so salty about the idea of maybe keeping an heir apparent on the roster that they make posts like this.

I get that Brady is still playing well, but how dumb is it to demand that belichick throw away the future just for a draft pick.
 
OP, honestly you may want to delete this and forget about it before it gets too late. This is an all-time bad thread and those tend to get brought up for years to come. Just ask Patrodamus... if you can find him.
Apparently the OP was not content with the response he received two weeks ago, and elected to go a bit further and double down in seeking some attention.

Brady's last year as a Patriot?

Before everyone throws stones at me, consider....

* Apparently, BB has decided to keep his backup QB and NOT trade him for what would be a huge amounts of picks, meaning he truly, truly values JG.

* After this season, no matter what happens, JG will be a free agent and if BB let's him walk, it means he got a season of having a quality backup QB who rarely played (likely scenario) and that would be it. Unless...

* He either gives JG the franchise tag or signs him to a new long term deal which of course would only happen if JG thought he was going to be the NE QB the following season; otherwise, JG would never sign a long term deal.

* So, let's consider the possibility that JG is given the franchise tag for a season. That means paying him more than Tom Brady and committing HUGE bucks to the QB position. Does anyone in his right mind think that's going to happen? Of course not.

* So keeping JG comes down to this: choosing between Tom Brady and JG. After this season, you can't have both. And you've (BB) already turned your back on multiple draft picks to keep JG so logically doesn't it make sense to keep the guy who's younger?

* As crazy as it seems, keeping JG this season reveals what's likely to happen the following season: Belichick keeping JG long term, making him the starter, and moving on from Tom Brady. I'm just not sure how it plays out any other way. What would a franchise give up for a 40 year old QB -- even one as good as Tom Brady? You might get a late 1st on a contending team.

* Tom Brady clearly wants to play 5 more seasons. Sticking with JG this year is a HUGE clue that that isn't likely to happen. Some will surely be very angry with BB. But does anyone doubt Belichick's fearlessness when it comes to doing what he thinks is best for the franchise? Bottom line here: enjoy this season. Hopefully it ends in another Super Bowl victory because Brady's last season as a Patriot could be this one.

I'll add -- that's my conclusion looking at the situation. I could be wrong, sure. But if BB keeps JG this year, he's wanting him to be the QB and that only happens if you trade #12. BB isn't the type of guy to be left holding an empty hand. He won't let JG walk (assuming he wants to keep him) for merely a one year luxury.
 
WTF! The answer is "somewhere between two and nine."
 
Bill Parcells always said that a great coach is one who can beat yours with his - or beat his with yours.

That sums up Belichick perfectly (does anyone doubt if spotted a 25 point lead in the Super Bowl, Belichick wouldn't have a better strategy to hold onto it than the Falcons?)

However keep in mind that we're talking about giving BB an assortment of guys other GMs picked. In the case of Belichick he'd still be shopping for the groceries.

Would the team average 12 wins a season for 17 years without Brady? Nope. But would they be MUCH better than 31 other mediocre teams and win a share of the Super Bowls?

Yup. Not sure how anyone in their right mind would deny that.
 
You don't know that. There's no sample of "Brady without Bill."

I, for one, think the greatest QB of all time would have a ring or two wherever he went. Maybe not 5, but certainly not 0.

I actually think Brady's skill set is sufficiently unique that most coaches would have miserably failed with him. I present the following:

* Brady wasn't immediately great - his first three years as a starter were good, better than most of us remember them (mid-80s QB rating back then was quality), but they weren't Tom Brady, the GOAT. He didn't break 7.0 YPA until 2004 (though 2003 was close), didn't break 250 YPG until 2005, didn't break a 90 QB rating until 2004; he was top-10, but not top-2.

* Brady lacked elite athletic ability; his strengths were pre-snap recognition, quickly progressing through reads, infrequent mistakes (there's a reason we remember the 4 Int games so well), and seemingly never losing his composure under pressure. Those are skills you need to build a scheme around, and frankly most coaches are either too stupid or too stubborn to adapt to a young QB.

* Bear in mind the competition: no matter how much the Patriots have dominated the AFC in the past decade and a half, there were always other would-be powerhouses: the Colts and Chargers, then Colts and Steelers, then the Ravens moving up, etc. Peyton is a good example of what happens when you burden a superior QB with inferior team building and good-to-poor coaching, and his skill set doesn't require anything special to build around.

If you put Brady onto a team like the Eagles - say they draft him late, and then McNabb goes down injured - then he collects a few rings, but if you put him on the Bengals, then he'd be mentioned alongside Marino as an all-time great who never won it all. The Browns would probably manage to ruin him entirely.
 
Honestly, it's amazing to me that in 2017, with Brady's age, we have people who are so salty about the idea of maybe keeping an heir apparent on the roster that they make posts like this.

I get that Brady is still playing well, but how dumb is it to demand that belichick throw away the future just for a draft pick.

This discussion has been going on since Matt Cassel, with the same morons claiming Brady is too old and it's time to move, that's why people are sick of it. They did it when he had the knee injury, again when they got off to a bad start in 2014, and started it up again when Garrapolo made it through 6 quarters out of the 16 he was needed to replace the GOAT. It's idiotic. Name any other QB who got progressively better at ages 37,38,and 39 and won two Lombardi's and SB MVP awards in that time? Brady is going to be named the best player in football by his peers in the upcoming NFLN Top 100 and was the reason Vegas had their money on the Patriots to win the 2017 Super Bowl-before free agency started. And my money is on him winning both the MVP and another Lombardi in 2017, and I'm pretty sure Vegas sees it the exact same way. The only way Jimmy Garrapolo becomes the heir to Brady is if he signs a low money six year deal to succeed him after the 2022 season, and that's never going to happen. I'm fine with Belichick keeping Garrapolo, franchising him, and trading him, just as he did with Cassel, but the only way he becomes his successor is a freak injury or Garrapolo goes Tonya Harding on him.
 
I actually think Brady's skill set is sufficiently unique that most coaches would have miserably failed with him. I present the following:

* Brady wasn't immediately great - his first three years as a starter were good, better than most of us remember them (mid-80s QB rating back then was quality), but they weren't Tom Brady, the GOAT. He didn't break 7.0 YPA until 2004 (though 2003 was close), didn't break 250 YPG until 2005, didn't break a 90 QB rating until 2004; he was top-10, but not top-2.

* Brady lacked elite athletic ability; his strengths were pre-snap recognition, quickly progressing through reads, infrequent mistakes (there's a reason we remember the 4 Int games so well), and seemingly never losing his composure under pressure. Those are skills you need to build a scheme around, and frankly most coaches are either too stupid or too stubborn to adapt to a young QB.

* Bear in mind the competition: no matter how much the Patriots have dominated the AFC in the past decade and a half, there were always other would-be powerhouses: the Colts and Chargers, then Colts and Steelers, then the Ravens moving up, etc. Peyton is a good example of what happens when you burden a superior QB with inferior team building and good-to-poor coaching, and his skill set doesn't require anything special to build around.

If you put Brady onto a team like the Eagles - say they draft him late, and then McNabb goes down injured - then he collects a few rings, but if you put him on the Bengals, then he'd be mentioned alongside Marino as an all-time great who never won it all. The Browns would probably manage to ruin him entirely.
Gimme a freakin' break.

Tom Brady is the greatest quarterback in the history of the National Football League, bar none. He took over a team that went 5-13 in their previous season-plus-2-games and won 3 of the next 4 Super Bowls.

If he had been playing somewhere else, he may not have 5 rings, but he would certainly have a couple. He would not have - as you say - "miserably failed" no matter where he went.
 
Last edited:
Bill Parcells always said that a great coach is one who can beat yours with his - or beat his with yours.

That sums up Belichick perfectly (does anyone doubt if spotted a 25 point lead in the Super Bowl, Belichick wouldn't have a better strategy to hold onto it than the Falcons?)

However keep in mind that we're talking about giving BB an assortment of guys other GMs picked. In the case of Belichick he'd still be shopping for the groceries.

Would the team average 12 wins a season for 17 years without Brady? Nope. But would they be MUCH better than 31 other mediocre teams and win a share of the Super Bowls?

Yup. Not sure how anyone in their right mind would deny that.
Which Super Bowls would they have won without the greatest QB of all time playing for them?

Which Super Bowls did they dominate so completely that you could take the greatest QB of all time away, replace him with Joe Average, and have won the game anyway?
 
Brady is the goat, but he can't control a team. Obviously Belichick can't control a franchise either [Browns] but given control, including personnel, he likely would win enough to eventually hit on big one. Unfortunately for these fantasy arguments, it's highly possible brady would have been stuck behind some greyhound, or big arm big name QB and there's nothing he could do about it.Sixth round pick.
 
If he had been playing somewhere else, he may not have 5 rings, but he would certainly have a couple. He would not have - as you say - "miserably failed" no matter where he went.

I wouldn't be nearly so sure. He was a 6th-round pick. Given the overall crappiness of NFL head coaching I can absolutely imagine there are plenty of HCs who would have left Brady buried on the bench and never used him. I think it's very far from certain that he'd even have been a starter elsewhere, let alone winning rings.
 
A better question would be "How many Superbowls would BB and TFB have won without NFL* corruption and interference"?
 
Brady would not have any SB's if he was with the Jets....their stench is that strong

in fact, he would have probably gotten his ass kicked by Giovanni Carmazzi
 
None or one. I'd guess none just cause without an elite QB it is more unlikely than likely. However teams that win without elite QBs tend to have elite coaches.

Since 2000.

Giants 2 - Tom Coughlin
Ravens 2 - John Harbaugh, Brian Billick
Seahawks 1 - Pete Carroll

So while not having the QB makes it hard great coaches can sometimes over come it by building good Ds and then finding a guy who can make some plays. Would BB have been able to do it? Maybe but who knows. Personally I think BB doesn't even though he is in many ways a better coach than the above people because his personality does not lend itself to win like they did.

BB wants to win every game and be competitive every year. That is a great trait but it has a downside. It makes you risk averse. You would rather take the most consistent and coachable player A than the the erratic but game changing player B.

All these teams that won above had something in common is that many times the coach took the back seat to players. Also you had guys on the team that would seem to disappear for stretches then turn it on in the important games.

BB doesn't really like players freelancing. Though he likes leaders BB will not let a Ray Lewis type (minus the murdering) make decisions coaches should or try to influence the culture of the team. He would not take the player who can be more game changing over a more steady player he can depend on.

All these coaches made those compromises (so to speak) to win cause they knew they didn't have the QB. I just don't see Bill making those same compromises. BB is a great coach but some of his biggest strengths would be weaknesses in a different situation.
 
Last edited:
Bill Parcells always said that a great coach is one who can beat yours with his - or beat his with yours.

That sums up Belichick perfectly (does anyone doubt if spotted a 25 point lead in the Super Bowl, Belichick wouldn't have a better strategy to hold onto it than the Falcons?)

However keep in mind that we're talking about giving BB an assortment of guys other GMs picked. In the case of Belichick he'd still be shopping for the groceries.

Would the team average 12 wins a season for 17 years without Brady? Nope. But would they be MUCH better than 31 other mediocre teams and win a share of the Super Bowls?

Yup. Not sure how anyone in their right mind would deny that.
That is not a parcells quote.
It goes back to the 50s or 60s in college (Darryl royal?) but more recently used by bum Phillips about Shula but instead of your players and his players it was "your'n" and "his'n"
 
None or one. I'd guess none just cause without an elite QB it is more unlikely than likely. However teams that win without elite QBs tend to have elite coaches.

Since 2000.

Giants 2 - Tom Coughlin
Ravens 2 - John Harbaugh, Brian Billick
Seahawks 1 - Pete Carroll

So while not having the QB makes it hard great coaches can sometimes over come it by building good Ds and then finding a guy who can make some plays. Would BB have been able to do it? Maybe but who knows.
At least 3.
BB had a lot to do with Brady's development. If he didn't find Brady he would have found someone else.
There is no way you can look at the way BB runs this organization and think he wouldn't be winning Super Bowls with someone else.
2001 is the perfect example.

The fact that the patriots became brady-centric is part of BBs leadership. Without the GOAT at QB the team would have won in different ways.
 
Which Super Bowls would they have won without the greatest QB of all time playing for them?

Which Super Bowls did they dominate so completely that you could take the greatest QB of all time away, replace him with Joe Average, and have won the game anyway?
Which did they win that yubcould take away the greatest coach of all time and they would have won anyway?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.


Patriots News 4-28, Draft Notes On Every Draft Pick
MORSE: A Closer Look at the Patriots Undrafted Free Agents
Five Thoughts on the Patriots Draft Picks: Overall, Wolf Played it Safe
2024 Patriots Undrafted Free Agents – FULL LIST
MORSE: Thoughts on Patriots Day 3 Draft Results
TRANSCRIPT: Patriots Head Coach Jerod Mayo Post-Draft Press Conference
2024 Patriots Draft Picks – FULL LIST
TRANSCRIPT: Patriots CB Marcellas Dial’s Conference Call with the New England Media
So Far, Patriots Wolf Playing It Smart Through Five Rounds
Wolf, Patriots Target Chemistry After Adding WR Baker
Back
Top