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How Many Titles Would Belichick Have WITHOUT Brady?


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The only thing that is inane about it is I accidentally typed 6 instead of 7.

Beyond that, it is a statement of fact. We don't have any sample of Brady without Belichick, but we have 7 years of Belichick without Brady. That's a pretty decent sized sample.
Ok. I will mark you down as believing belichick sucks and couldn't win without Brady as soon as I finish laughing at you.
 
If we just completely ignore the roster and cap situation that Belichick was saddled with entering 2000 and all the roster changes (esp on defense) he made entering 2001, then yep -- it is all because of Brady.

Agreed. Have we already forgotten the remarkable and unexpected turnaround Belichick orchestrated from 2000 to 2001?

Let's not go crazy trying to rewrite the past @XLIX
 
Ok. I will mark you down as believing belichick sucks and couldn't win without Brady as soon as I finish laughing at you.
Do you really think that putting words in my mouth and completely misrepresenting my statements is the sign of you having strong argument?

Enjoy your laugh because what you're laughing at exists only in your head.
 
Agreed. Have we already forgotten the remarkable and unexpected turnaround Belichick orchestrated from 2000 to 2001?

Let's not go crazy trying to rewrite the past @XLIX
Who is rewriting the past? Not me. The Patriots were 5-13 under Belichick before Brady, then won 14 of the next 17, including a little game I like to call Super Bowl 36. If you think that is "rewriting the past" then you clearly don't know Patriots history.

The turnaround literally happened overnight when Brady started starting. Some people think this is just a coincidence.
 
Too many unknowns to answer the OP's question. Without Brady I suspect BB may not have had the ammunition to have his way in the front office the way he did. In that case it's really hard to see what BB could have accomplished, especially if the Patriots don't win the superbowl in 2001 which gave BB all the leverage he needed to make changes to the franchise.

He would probably have wanted to deal Bledsoe, I suspect the reason Brady got so many chances in 2001 to keep that job is because BB was done with Drew Bledsoe, and that would have remained the case and BB would have wanted to try and deal Bledsoe by 2002, but may not have had the leverage to get it done in the front office. Dealing one's franchise quarterback is a sizeable risk, even one with as many bad habits as Bledsoe. With his position insecure, BB might not have been able to convince the rest of the brain trust to follow him on that one.

That being the case it's a complete unknown who BB would have wanted to take in 2002 to replace Bledsoe. It's not completely impossible that without Brady, and especially if he deals Bledsoe and doesn't roll well on a replacement, that Belichick is fired by 2004.
 
Do you really think that putting words in my mouth and completely misrepresenting my statements is the sign of you having strong argument?

Enjoy your laugh because what you're laughing at exists only in your head.
You are clowning yourself and I am done with you.
 
On the other hand? let's say that BB is as good at scouting as he is, since we know he's good at analyzing football players.

With Bledsoe giving BB a bad year and then an injury year, what are the odds that with no Brady in the fold, the Patriots take Drew Brees in the first round?

Brees went in the first pick of the second round in 2001, it's not too much of a stretch to put him late in the first round. Especially because given hindsight it's obvious that Brees slipped into the second round through no fault of his own

If as I suspect BB has no love of Bledsoe, and assuming Brady decided to commit to baseball and is catching for the San Francisco Giants organization or something, it's not impossible at all that the Patriots would take Brees. The Patriots had the #6 pick that year and used it on Seymour, but they could potentially have moved down, got a second and a late first, and used the first on Brees. Or hell, trade Bledsoe for a low first and use it on Brees. You could probably have gotten a franchise to bite on a mid to lower round first for Bledsoe even with the injury, especially because Bledsoe would probably have been back from the injury before the end of the year if not for Brady and would have been on form by draft day, and if Brees slipped to the later picks in the first round, and BB doesn't trust his franchise quarterback and sees Brees' potential, I think you might expect to see Belichick jump on that

Trading up for Michael Vick wasn't out of the question from the #6 position but I can't see Belichick doing that because 1: it would be buying high, 2: Vick already had some drama around him and BB wouldn't want to deal with it and 3: Hell No.

With Brees in the fold, I really think BB can build up to a Superbowl winning level by 2005 or so, if he's given the time by the organization. And if he's applying his scouting and roster building approach in the meantime he should have the time, especially after Brees comes into his own.

That being the case, I really do expect BB to be able to construct a roster that allows him to keep his job and build a franchise around Drew Brees if we didn't strike gold with Brady. I think Brees was well enough regarded to go in the first round, and would have been enough of an asset to allow Bill to convince the brain trust to let Bledsoe go.
 
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This is an attitude that baffles me. You want to have it both ways. You want to claim Brady is the GOAT (which he is) but hey, if we didn't have Brady, we still would've won anyway.

I'll ask you the same question no one else seems to want to answer: Which Super Bowls did the Patriots win in such convincing fashion that you feel they could have taken out the greatest QB of all time, replaced him with Joe Average, and still have won anyway?

Irrelevant really. It would have been a different team that tried to win in different ways.

If the Patriots drafted Drew Brees in 01 for example, which is something well within BB's reach and his philosophy and which they might have done if BB was sufficiently dissatisfied with Bledsoe and had no viable replacement on hand, they would have built a more offensive team around him rather than taking advantage of Brady's cool head and uncanny ability to make scrub receivers effective and and pairing Brady's ability to be clutch with not much with a great defense.

With an acclaimed #1 stud QB like Brees Bill might have built the whole roster differently, might have sacrificed a bit of defense for offense and tried to become an offensive powerhouse with a completely different outcome in the playoffs. Maybe if they draft Brees they win games by more instead of playing the brinksmanship game that won them 2 of the first 3. Or maybe building great offenses saps their defense and they got nowhere like a lot of offensive teams (see also: Minnesota Vikings). It's a strategy that can win, but it can blow up in your face too. But it *is* a strategy that can win.

By accentuating the defense and playing to young-Brady's just-enough-to-win style they got 3 early rings. By playing to Brady's well developed veteran offensive skills and a young defense they got 2 more. How many of those rings could they have won with a smart and well-regarded young quarterback like Brees? Possibly none. Possibly more than they actually got. Brees is very very good and Belichick would not have made the same roster choices he did to build his team around Brady. It would have been a team built completely differently with different offensive and defensive schemes. And knowing what we know now about Belichick, he was probably good enough to pull that approach off too. BB is very good at getting a lot out of what he has to work with, the Cassell year is all the evidence we need of that.
 
"Tom Brady? System quarterback."

Oh how I'd love for the haters to have been right c. 2001-2004...
 
Actually no I wouldn't like that. Too much Brady magic lost to us all if that were the case... but it's a fun thought when pondering the rest of the league's reaction...

"If you want a picture of the future, Winston, imagine Bill Belichick's foot stepping on you're team's logo, forever."
 
Why is it so difficult for many to consider that Belichick would not have been as good without Brady, AND Brady would not have been as good without Belichick.

There is no reason this have to be a complete either/or question, with only one or the other receiving 100% of the credit.


On a related note, pro football is the ultimate team game. Head coaches and quarterbacks tend to get too much credit (and too much blame). It is not at all like other sports like baseball (pitcher vs batter) or basketball (a mere five players on the court per team).
 
You are clowning yourself and I am done with you.
In that case, let me conclude by pointing out you had to put words in my mouth and respond to what you were pretending I said and not what I actually said.

I don't blame you for slithering off since you are showing everyone you either can't or won't debate intelligently.
 
Hey folks, I'm the OP that started this debate. It's actually an interesting question to consider. Of course, BB is a GREAT coach. And to this point, he'll go down as the best NFL coach of all time. He should; he's very deserving. I don't think he necessarily is the best at working the draft, although, of course, he's made several great moves over the years (and had his share of misses). Where he's especially great is plucking away guys from other teams, and utilizing their talents in ways other teams wouldn't. Also, although his background as an assistant coach was defense, I absolutely love what he's done with the Patriot offense over the years -- very unpredictable, wide open, just fun.

Perhaps Belichick at some point would have found an elite QB other than Brady or at least a very good one. If that happens, then yes, he probably does have at least one ring as a head coach (maybe more).

When I posted this originally, I'll admit, I was upset with BB because I think he blew a golden opportunity to distance his team and the field by a wide margin for the next 3 to 4 years by trading JG for at least a #1 and #2. Imagine selecting Hooker (what a secondary you'd have) with Cleveland's #12 pick, then moving up from the second round and nabbing LB Foster late in the 1st round. Wow! No one would touch that team in the next few years. And why wouldn't you trade JG?

I mean, crap, both Brady and Belichick probably only have 3 or 4 more years of playing/coaching. Why not cash in your chips and have the best team EVER, go out winning 2 or 3 more Super Bowls handily?

Belichick is human. He's had all the success any coach could ever dream of for years and years. Being human, I think he wants a different challenge, and in the back of his mind, to cement his legacy, the thought of moving on from Brady and winning a championship with a new QB would be the final challenge, the final stamp of approval. Just as he wanted to win last year without LBer Collins (and trading him) and show everyone the defense could actually be better once he was gone, so now is BB imagining a championship without Brady and what that would do to his legacy.

Maybe I'm wrong in that premise, but I see no other explanation for NOT trading JG. And personally, for me, I don't think that's fair to Tom. He wants to play for 4 or 5 more years. Sure, I don't think he'll be as good at the end as he is now, but if BB had made that trade, TB wouldn't have to be as good. One step down from great surrounded by a ton of talent could still mean more glory, for everyone.

Just my thoughts. Blast away.
 
Thought I'd check in on the progress of this thread. Now people are spouting off nonsense about the possibility of having won more Superbowls with Brees at QB. Unreal.
 
Thought I'd check in on the progress of this thread. Now people are spouting off nonsense about the possibility of having won more Superbowls with Brees at QB. Unreal.
Drew Brees is a very good quarterback, good enough to win a ring of his own with a much lesser roster and organization around him than Brady usually has to work with. With Belichick's roster building talent around him I think it's entirely possible to propose that he could be in the same universe as Brady currently is.

Brady's career is a combination of talent and opportunity. Brady is excellently talented in ways that are hard to measure. But Brees also has many of the same talents, he's a good quarterback not just for the raw measurables, which as probably better than Brady's if we're honest, but he also has many of the same intangible assets as well. Given the same environment to develop in that Brady had, what could Brees have been? Is it possible that specific situations that went against Brady might fall differently with a different quarterback? Hard to say. Also hard to rule out. Certainly not worth merely dismissing with an ignorant guffaw.

If the franchise trusted Bledsoe, Brady would have been stuffed back onto the bench the first chance Belichick had. He clearly trusted Brady more than Bledsoe irregardless of Bledsoe's injury. Remember, one of Belichick's greatest abilities is to scout the talent on his own team. He had an idea what Tom Brady was earlier than most of us. And he clearly had a concept that Brady had some attributes that made him worth extending his audition even when his putative starter was healthy again. I don't think BB would do that just because Brady was still winning. Not if he thought that Bledsoe could win too. Clearly there were trust issues between Belichick and Bledsoe that led into that particular decision.

If the franchise hadn't had a very interesting young prospect to fill in for Bledsoe after the 2000 season and he still distrusts Bledsoe which he clearly did, repositioning the franchise around one of the QB's from the draft is a standard move. Of the draft candidates available in 2001, Brees is the most reasonable choice.

I think it's very likely that without a viable in-house replacement and with no love lost for Bledsoe, Belichick goes after Brees either by trading down or by swapping Bledsoe for a low first, and with Brees on the roster, BB has easily enough quarterback to work with to go win some rings. Maybe not five, but some number, and Brees is good enough that 5 isn't off the table. With Belichick's roster building ability, and a very talented quarterback to work with, I think either Brees or Brady would have been in the GOAT conversation by this point and would have, by dint of being talented quarterbacks in a winning organization, earned their place in the conversation.

The fact of the matter is that so many of Brees' best years have been wasted that it's really tough to measure him properly against Brady. With a better organization Brees could have been one of the all timers. Arguably he's still on the cusp of that conversation. But the Saints' mishandling of their roster has left him something of a forgotten man despite his obvious skill. That would not have happened to him in an organization run by Bill Belichick.

Brady is probably objectively better than Brees, I will say that. But certainly not so much better that Belichick can't craft a roster that Brees could win multiple rings with. And he could have had him if he wasn't satisfied with his quarterbacking options at the 2001 draft. That's all I'm saying.
 
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