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How good is Kendrick Bourne?


Alright I'll bite.

Who are you adding, and who are you removing?

Don't know who I'm adding yet, but he will arrive via the draft, via un-drafted free agency, and/or at the Filene's Basement of veteran free agency... Who am I removing? Kneal Harry of course.
 
#3


#4


#5


I would replace OG with DT & DE.


"Fine"?

They'll be Fine on offense ONLY if they bring a playoff-caliber LT AND At Least one more playoff-caliber WR into the building
So, OG isn't a top priority?????

1) I believe that you want Onwenu to play RT. Well, that is where he would be now. Surely, you don't want Herron as our starting RT.

2) So, our guards are Mason, Durant, Desjarlis, and Humheight (sp?). Among these are pour backup centers.

BOTTOM LINE
OG is our very worst unit.
 
GOD- I am tired of your constant complaints about the management team that has kept the the longest running success story in NFL HISTORY together. But now that my rant is over, feel free to nitpick bad draft choices that ALL teams make if it makes you feel better (and it obviously does.). But pretending that Gabe Davis was an obvious choice because he had one great day in the playoffs is ludicrous beyond ANY measure. '

BUT the great thing about your post is that it got me thinking more about the annual whine for WR's fest we have EVERY year, regardless of the results on the field.

.

3. OL - Another "keen sense of the obvious" selection - Ours is not elite but above average. The run game was decent and the pass blocking was surprisingly effective with the 3rd fewest sacks. I hope we do get better though and Mac himself with help with that as he gets more elusive in the pocket with more experience.
Our OL isn't above average with Brown and Karras gone.

Which of our backups do want on the 53? Or out it another way. We have 3 starters returning and a very solid backup (Onwenu). That's 4. I would be fine if ALL of the others are gone. I guess I'm OK with Herron as our 4th (inactive) OT. Even then, we have 4 openings.
 
So, OG isn't a top priority?????

1) I believe that you want Onwenu to play RT. Well, that is where he would be now. Surely, you don't want Herron as our starting RT.

2) So, our guards are Mason, Durant, Desjarlis, and Humheight (sp?). Among these are pour backup centers.

BOTTOM LINE
OG is our very worst unit.

See if Trent Brown is amenable to an incentive-laden contract with the purpose of playing him at LT; then Wynn/Lose can be moved to LG, his more-natural pro position. I would also use a draft pick and/or UDFA capital to try to find a LT of the Future.

Karras shouldn't break the bank to re-sign either.

The first priority regarding the OL is settling on a LT... Everything else there will fall into place afterwards.
 
GOD- I am tired of your constant complaints about the management team that has kept the the longest running success story in NFL HISTORY together. But now that my rant is over, feel free to nitpick bad draft choices that ALL teams make if it makes you feel better (and it obviously does.). But pretending that Gabe Davis was an obvious choice because he had one great day in the playoffs is ludicrous beyond ANY measure. '

BUT the great thing about your post is that it got me thinking more about the annual whine for WR's fest we have EVERY year, regardless of the results on the field.

Now I don't disagree that having a great WR isn't helpful to an offense, but it has NEVER been a key element to overall team success. Let's take for example Cooper Kupp. I just read a post combine draft analysis before his draft. He ran a 4.65 forty but had a 6.75 3cone. Among his weakness they mentioned his quickness didn't translate into separation at times. This is now the guy who is the best WR in the league and is CONSTANTLY catching passes BEHIND opposing defenses, including the game winner last week. It got me to rethink a bit about what exactly MAKES a WR great. And there are a LOT of factors.

1. Offensive system - One of Jerry Rice's breaks came when he was picked by the 49'ers in the first years of the West Coast offense, and offense that is still causing problems for DC almost 35 years after its start with Bill Walsh, But back then it was a freakin' mystery that led to the Niner's dynasty run back in the 80's and even into the 90's as teams slowly started (as they always do) adjust to new things.

The Pats have an offensive system that has been both innovative and flexible over the years. It is built to effectively utilize the talent at hand, and has proven over the years to often lead the way establishing new trends. So I'm good with the brain trust, and I'm not different than most when it comes to the usual complaints during. game day when they do something that I wouldn't have done. BUT despite the fact that I still go nuts when they fail to even give the potential of a run on 3rd and 4 or less (and this has gone on for over 10 years), the offense (IMHO) has usually exceeded its athletic potential.

And we also have to admit to ourselves that we are making our judgements about game decisions with about 1% of the information that the coaches are using to make theirs

2. QB - who you have as QB OBVIOUSLY affects the success of any WR and passing offense. I don't need to go into more depth about an issue that has been talked about over and over, Suffice it to say, so far so good. Right now we have a QB who was JUST in the top half of the league stats wise, and looks to be a keeper in all of the intangible aspects of game (leadership, competitiveness, intensity etc). No one knows exactly what type of QB Mac will develop into. The range could be anywhere between mediocre to great. I think we can safely say we can eliminate "bad" from the equation.

I'm sure he will be working hard to improve on aspects of his game. I'd love to hear some time this off season that he spent a week with Tom House and his group, though it's just a hope.

3. OL - Another "keen sense of the obvious" selection - Ours is not elite but above average. The run game was decent and the pass blocking was surprisingly effective with the 3rd fewest sacks. I hope we do get better though and Mac himself with help with that as he gets more elusive in the pocket with more experience.

4. Targets- No WR is going to be successful if they aren't going to around 10 targets or more a game. Plaub and simple.

5. The ability to separate OR win the catch while being covered. That takes me back to Cooper Kupp. Here's a guy with BELOW average speed and good but not great quickness who has CONSISTENTLY beat defenses and created separation AND won contested balls all year.

So the question becomes HOW? I'm not sure I know because we don't get to see him very often. But I'd love to find his duplicate and hear from others who can offer their thoughts on the why and how of Cooper Kupp. But its clear to me that you don't have to draft in the top 10 to get one. PLUS you are about 50-50 even if you pick one in the first round. We bemoan like banshees over missing on a #32 pick when we all know about WR misses that have been made MUCH higher

But count me among those who hope we add more speed all over the field this off season but the bottom line here is that we need to use our early picks on the DL and/or CB, well before we use them for WR. Bourne has proven he can eventually be a 100 yd receiver as Andy pointed out, if he is on the field more than 50% of the time and gets more targets. Meyers is good at what he is, and Angular IMHO wasn't utilized well. It seemed to me that most of the time his role was to run clear out routes to open up others,

Harry is likely out the door, but Wilkerson continues to intrigue us with BRIEF flashes of brilliance followed by obvious examples of why he is still on the PS most of the time.

So in the end I've written a lot of crap that go back to the THESE points. You can find WR's good enough to gain 200 yds in a playoff game in every round of the draft and some that aren't even drafted. Second, it takes all kinds of skills to create separation. Cooper Kupp seems to do it every route DESPITE not having the obvious physical skills we look for in our ideal WR. I think that needs to be studied more.
Still can't believe this slow ash undrafted dude who can't jump to save his life (hyperbole) is one of the best Pats WRs ever.

HeightWeightArm lengthHand span40-yard dash10-yard split20-yard split20-yard shuttleThree-cone drillVertical jumpBroad jump
5 ft 8+3⁄4 in
(1.75 m)
195 lb
(88 kg)
31+3⁄8 in
(0.80 m)
9 in
(0.23 m)
4.65 s1.60 s2.67 s4.01 s7.09 s30 in
(0.76 m)
9 ft 5 in
(2.87 m)
 
Still can't believe this slow ash undrafted dude who can't jump to save his life (hyperbole) is one of the best Pats WRs ever.

HeightWeightArm lengthHand span40-yard dash10-yard split20-yard split20-yard shuttleThree-cone drillVertical jumpBroad jump
5 ft 8+3⁄4 in
(1.75 m)
195 lb
(88 kg)
31+3⁄8 in
(0.80 m)
9 in
(0.23 m)
4.65 s1.60 s2.67 s4.01 s7.09 s30 in
(0.76 m)
9 ft 5 in
(2.87 m)

And you can't win if you don't play, so Bill needs to be Extremely ****ing Active in the UDFA market, at multiple positions, since we don't have any draft picks or cap room.
 
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Our OL isn't above average with Brown and Karras gone.

Which of our backups do want on the 53? Or out it another way. We have 3 starters returning and a very solid backup (Onwenu). That's 4. I would be fine if ALL of the others are gone. I guess I'm OK with Herron as our 4th (inactive) OT. Even then, we have 4 openings.
I think it is very premature to think that both Karras and Brown are gone. I think both have had decent years. IRRC Brown really likes it here. I THINK the feeling is mutual. Karras was better than expected, at least MY expectations. I would have no problem having him back for what we paid him last year. Owenu, Herron and the WVa kid make a decent start for starters competition/back ups part of the roster.

BTW it didn't seem like you were too happy with Karras and Brown. Any reason why?
 
See if Trent Brown is amenable to an incentive-laden contract with the purpose of playing him at LT; then Wynn/Lose can be moved to LG, his more-natural pro position. I would also use a draft pick and/or UDFA capital to try to find a LT of the Future.

Karras shouldn't break the bank to re-sign either.

The first priority regarding the OL is settling on a LT... Everything else there will fall into place afterwards.

I think it is very premature to think that both Karras and Brown are gone. I think both have had decent years. IRRC Brown really likes it here. I THINK the feeling is mutual. Karras was better than expected, at least MY expectations. I would have no problem having him back for what we paid him last year. Owenu, Herron and the WVa kid make a decent start for starters competition/back ups part of the roster.

BTW it didn't seem like you were too happy with Karras and Brown. Any reason why?
Clearly I miscommunicated.

1) Someone posted that our OL was a good one, much better than average. I responded with looking at the status quo OL, with Karras and Brown unsigned.

2) I have posted that OG is our #1 need. Karras would be my #1 candidate for re-signing. As was the case with Phillips, he is a key player who won't cost a fortune. [Jackson may be as important, but his price will likely make it difficult to want to sign].

3) I also want to re-sign Brown. The cost will likely be likely be less than other free agents of the same quality.

BOTTOM LINE
I would be fine with us re-signing Karras and Brown to 2-4 year contracts.
 
Don't know who I'm adding yet, but he will arrive via the draft, via un-drafted free agency, and/or at the Filene's Basement of veteran free agency... Who am I removing? Kneal Harry of course.
1.) until a player lights up the league and makes the playoffs, they are not "playoff caliber"

2.) Harry barely played, so one of the starters has to sit, who are you sitting?
 
Something to think about in this regard too. Here were the top WR/TE snap counts on the year:

Meyers - 84%
Henry - 68%
Agholor - 64%
Bourne - 52%

Meaning that was our most common combination, with one RB rounding out the group. Three of those four guys were new to the team, and all four of them were new to each other and their (rookie) QB. You can even add Smith (47% of the snaps) in this mix as well. I think it's reasonable to assume that, barring injuries or major regressions, this group should perform better as a unit in 2022 with more chemistry and more experienced QB play. How much better is the question, and the Patriots should 100% hedge their bets by adding some depth and competition to this group. But some innate improvement should also be expected, IMO.
 
Kendrick Bourne is ideally what we wanted Mohammed Sanu to be when we traded for him. Only difference is QB - obviously if our QB was more experienced, I believe Bourne would have seen more action ( this season ).

I don't think Bourne himself is going to improve much more himself but as the offense/QB grows , I expect more looks and naturally better stats.

He is a high end wr3/good wr2 who is toeing being a great wr2.

Meyers in the same boat (with a different skill set).
 
Clearly I miscommunicated.

1) Someone posted that our OL was a good one, much better than average. I responded with looking at the status quo OL, with Karras and Brown unsigned.

2) I have posted that OG is our #1 need. Karras would be my #1 candidate for re-signing. As was the case with Phillips, he is a key player who won't cost a fortune. [Jackson may be as important, but his price will likely make it difficult to want to sign].

3) I also want to re-sign Brown. The cost will likely be likely be less than other free agents of the same quality.

BOTTOM LINE
I would be fine with us re-signing Karras and Brown to 2-4 year contracts.

I agree, though I don't believe it will be necessary to sign them for more than 2 years.
 
I think Bourne could be a solid to excellent #2 WR. Unfortunately, he was used as the #3 WR for most of the year. Ironically, Meyers is better suited to be the #3 WR and he was mostly used as the primary WR.
Wishful thinking all the Patriots WR's are #3's who would work well with a bonafide 1 or 2.
 
I agree, though I don't believe it will be necessary to sign them for more than 2 years.
I'm fine with 2.

Longer allows us to spread the bonuses over more years.
 
That would depend on the game situation, would it not?
so all you see are problems, and nothing you can provide are solutions.

It's a simple question, and you can't answer it.
 
so all you see are problems, and nothing you can provide are solutions.

It's a simple question, and you can't answer it.

You want a more specific answer to Who among Agholor, Meyers or Bourne would sit?

In that case, the answer is: Whoever among them is sucking the worst or doesn't provide what we need the most, because None of these three are above being sat for extended periods of time... Chances are the first guy I'm gonna look at is Agholor, since he was never worth signing for that money in the first place...
 
I apologize for necro-posting to my own dead thread, but this is interesting re: Bourne:

Mac Jones-Kendrick Bourne connection was one of the best in the NFL in 2021

So Football Outsiders has Mac to Bourne connection #1 in DVOA, and ProFootball Focus with their entirely different methodology rates them #3.

Mac had a 139.1 passer rating targeting Bourne!

I'll say it again: Bourne is vastly better than Jakobi Meyers, who despite being a fan favorite and a great story, is a JAG and not nearly productive enough as a slot receiver. He got a lot of targets because of the position he played, but did very little with his opportunities. Let him go.
 
I think it is very premature to think that both Karras and Brown are gone. I think both have had decent years. IRRC Brown really likes it here. I THINK the feeling is mutual. Karras was better than expected, at least MY expectations. I would have no problem having him back for what we paid him last year. Owenu, Herron and the WVa kid make a decent start for starters competition/back ups part of the roster.

BTW it didn't seem like you were too happy with Karras and Brown. Any reason why?
Karras is gone. Someone is going to pay him starting guard money. Patriots won't be able to afford that. I could see Cincy wanting to do that. There were several times where Karras was pulling to be the lead blocker and was so slow to get there that the Edge guy came in and made the tackle, blowing the running play up. I just don't feel like he's athletic enough to be the kind of starting guard that the Pats need. He's ok for short stints, but not an every down guy.

Trent Brown may like it here, but there is no way in hell BB bring him back at $10M after he missed half the season. I'm pretty sure Brown came back over-weight and out of shape. More than a few plays he seemed to be too lax when he finally came back. Not to mention that the Pats have Cap issues currently with only about $4m in cap space.

The same people saying to move Wynn in to LG (not you PFK) are the same ones who said Matt Light could never be a starting caliber LT and that HIS best position was LG. If the Pats trade Wynn for 1st round draft pick and he redoes his contract with the new team, great. If the Pats trade Wynn for a starting caliber LB or DT, great. Otherwise, I'd rather see what he does with whomever is the new O-line coach.. Yes, part of me wants his former O-line coach Matt Luke to be hired. I think that Luke would do wonders for the O-line.

I have no preference on where Onwenu plays as long as the Pats put him there and leave him there. If Onwenu is put at LG, then they need to tell Andrews NOT to help either Onwenu or Mason ever. That Andrews needs to be watching for the stunt/twist/delayed rusher up the middle. If Onwenu/Mason can't handle whomever they're against, they shouldn't be playing anymore. Yes, they have THAT level of ability. If they put Onwenu at RT, then they need someone at LG who won't require much help. That's NOT Karras.

The O-line was supposed to be the strongest unit for the Patriots last year. And it wasn't, despite what they accomplished. Harris and Stevenson did a helluva job with what they had to work with a lot of times.
 
There are a lot of variables to that. Probably not when comparing an 800 yard guy to the top producers in the league, but a huge function of WR production is opportunity.
As an example, when Welker was here he was the #1 progression on basically every play that wasn’t Moss when he was also here.
So basically if Welker gets open, Welker gets the ball AND the route combinations are designed in order to get Welker open.
Bourne was far from that. Often he was running the route designed to get someone else open. And if he did get open he may never get looked at.
Thats not to say he is capable of getting open more as the primary target just that he doesn’t have that opportunity and his best case production is capped at a lower level that players who do.
The other factor is that Bourne only played 52% of the snaps. So again you can’t say he would produce twice as much if he played them all because players who play situationally have a big advantage in per snap numbers.

My feeling is that he is a candidate for a larger role and may do well in it.
Agreed, there is no reason that Bourne can not assume a Cooper Kupp type role. That is obviously a high trajectory for his production but the style is comparable. Problem with NE is Bourne does not have the complimentary pieces that draw different attention like Welker had with Moss and Edelman had with Gronk. I remember when Pete Carrol was fumbling around for receivers in ‘99 I used to yell at the tv to put Troy Brown in and get him the ball. We know how that worked out.
 


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