Faith

[RI Patriots fan]

Correct. It is NOT a blind response to stories you heard as a kid. Faith is just simply a blind response.

If you are blindfolded and need to turn left or right to find the exit there are two ways you can make the decision: by using faith (ie: choosing randomly or by "gut feeling") or by using reason (ie: using your hands to feel, ears to listen, skin to feel for wind, etc...) Once you use evidence to form a decision it can no longer be called faith; it may be the wrong decision, but it was an informed decision.

Aaaaagain, I am referring simply to the act of faith, not your particular and individual faith that has been molded by years of indoctrination.

Bold: I can't resist. You were born an unbeliever, yet it seemed to have worked for you...

An "act of faith" is based upon an experience of faith just like an act of love is based upon the experience of love. You can't separate the two.

BTW, my faith was formed by years of independent study as well as my experiences with God (which as an unbeliever you wouldn't have experienced)

Also, just because I make a decision based upon faith doesn't mean that it will contradict with reason. As I mentioned with love, we can experience love yet not be able to measure it or quantify it. No one would say that an act of love is contrary to reason. If anything reason could very well support such a choice.

 

[TBradyOwnsYou]

I think you're lumping in a lot of groups together. Sure some people are sheep who do as they're told because it's all they've ever known. There are others who have come to their faith through their life events. I was born Catholic and reject everything they believe in and believe the bible is man made fables set up to control behavior. It doesn't mean I'm right it's just what I believe. I do however believe that the entire universe is connected and that there is an afterlife and reincarnation. I believe in quantum physics and I believe in the soul. Does that make me an idiot? I have no proof it's simply what I believe.

Another way to look at it is this. An engineer takes on a project he's never done before but he has a strong faith not only in god but in himself through god. He believes if putting his mind to something there's nothing he cannot accomplish. Why would I not want this person on my project? You're making a leap that because somebody believes in what you feel is a fairy tale they are utterly incompetent. There's no justification for that leap.

Bold: You were born atheist.

Italic: THAT is faith. Yet it is somehow seen as a virtue (or admirable in your own words) and I don't see why when in 2013, we have access to a literal world of information at our fingertips.

Underline: When he places a support structure "because he has faith it'll work" as opposed to "I did the math and it will work" then we have an issue because he is using faith, not reason, to do his job. His belief in Allah or Zeus or Baal is irrelevant presuming it doesn't bleed in to his work.
However, if he is susceptible to unreasonable belief, I personally would choose 100 out of 100 times a builder who is not. Engineer was an extreme example. I think law maker and teacher are more apropos to the topic at hand.

 

[RI Patriots fan]

Compel: to drive or urge forcefully or irresistibly / to cause to do or occur by overwhelming pressure

You are entitled to your faith, but not your own vocabulary.

You can put on your right shoe, or your left shoe first. You have faith that putting on your right shoe first is best. This is NOT a compelling reason to put your right shoe on first.

Mother Teresa: The fanatic, fraudulent Mother Teresa. - Slate Magazine

How about this definition:

"to have a powerful and irresistible effect, influence"


Compel | Define Compel at Dictionary.com


If I choose to put on shoes as an act of faith it is based upon my faith experience. This faith choice is not a decision to avoid my senses or abandon reason but rather a decision to allow my faith experience to help guide me in that decision....not at the expense of reason.

 

[TBradyOwnsYou]

An "act of faith" is based upon an experience of faith just like an act of love is based upon the experience of love. You can't separate the two.

BTW, my faith was formed by years of independent study as well as my experiences with God (which as an unbeliever you wouldn't have experienced)

Also, just because I make a decision based upon faith doesn't mean that it will contradict with reason. As I mentioned with love, we can experience love yet not be able to measure it or quantify it. No one would say that an act of love is contrary to reason. If anything reason could very well support such a choice.

1. That is pure double-talk.

2. Why are we still referring to faith as something that you build? I am not talking about that. Experiences with God... wow. I'll ignore for now, though if you open your proof of God thread, I would certainly start with that.

3. I never said that. I wasn't even remotely close to saying that. As a matter of fact, you're not even making sense. I was talking about the two ways to make a decision, not about the results of the two choices and their relevance to reality.

 

[RI Patriots fan]

Bold: You were born atheist.

Italic: THAT is faith. Yet it is somehow seen as a virtue (or admirable in your own words) and I don't see why when in 2013, we have access to a literal world of information at our fingertips.

Underline: When he places a support structure "because he has faith it'll work" as opposed to "I did the math and it will work" then we have an issue because he is using faith, not reason, to do his job. His belief in Allah or Zeus or Baal is irrelevant presuming it doesn't bleed in to his work.
However, if he is susceptible to unreasonable belief, I personally would choose 100 out of 100 times a builder who is not. Engineer was an extreme example. I think law maker and teacher are more apropos to the topic at hand.

No one is born an atheist. You're born without knowledge. Just because I don't know of something's existence doesn't mean I reject or deny it's existence. An atheist is someone who denies the existence of God.

"a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings."

Atheist | Define Atheist at Dictionary.com


You can't deny or reject something if you've never heard of it before.

 

[TBradyOwnsYou]

How about this definition:

"to have a powerful and irresistible effect, influence"


Compel | Define Compel at Dictionary.com


If I choose to put on shoes as an act of faith it is based upon my faith experience. This faith choice is not a decision to avoid my senses or abandon reason but rather a decision to allow my faith experience to help guide me in that decision....not at the expense of reason.

OK, let's define what you mean by "faith experience" because if it is implying some kind of experience you had in your life, it stops being "faith" and starts being reason. It may be faulty reason, but it is something you can point to for your belief in shoe donning. The only way it can get back to faith is when you blind yourself to available good reasoning and choose to still continue in your belief.

 

[RI Patriots fan]

1. That is pure double-talk.

2. Why are we still referring to faith as something that you build? I am not talking about that. Experiences with God... wow. I'll ignore for now, though if you open your proof of God thread, I would certainly start with that.

3. I never said that. I wasn't even remotely close to saying that. As a matter of fact, you're not even making sense. I was talking about the two ways to make a decision, not about the results of the two choices and their relevance to reality.

It isn't double talk at all. An act of faith is most certainly based upon an experience of faith. The two are inseparable. But since you don't believe in the experience of faith, you see faith chioices as purely human inventions.

You don't have to leave out my experiences with God. As an unbeliever, you can't fathom the supernatural. That's understandable.

 

[TBradyOwnsYou]

No one is born an atheist. You're born without knowledge. Just because I don't know of something's existence doesn't mean I reject or deny it's existence. An atheist is someone who denies the existence of God.

"a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings."

Atheist | Define Atheist at Dictionary.com


You can't deny or reject something if you've never heard of it before.

Atheism is simply the lack of belief. It is the blank slate. An Antitheist is someone who denies theism. Whilst they are often portrayed as one in the same, they are not. (example: Asexuality is not a rejection of sexuality, it is a lack of sexuality.)

Think of it like this: each religion is a television channel. Atheism is a powered off TV.

If I can't deny something before I hear it, I also cannot know it. If you'd like to choose a different word to use other than atheism for this so as to not confuse yourself, I'd be happy to use whatever word you want, but saying that one cannot be born with a disbelief does not in any way whatsoever validate the claim that one can be born WITH a belief, no matter what word you choose to call it.

 

[TBradyOwnsYou]

It isn't double talk at all. An act of faith is most certainly based upon an experience of faith. The two are inseparable. But since you don't believe in the experience of faith, you see faith chioices as purely human inventions.

You don't have to leave out my experiences with God. As an unbeliever, you can't fathom the supernatural. That's understandable.

You certainly claim to know a lot about what I can and cannot think or understand.

 

[RI Patriots fan]

OK, let's define what you mean by "faith experience" because if it is implying some kind of experience you had in your life, it stops being "faith" and starts being reason. It may be faulty reason, but it is something you can point to for your belief in shoe donning. The only way it can get back to faith is when you blind yourself to available good reasoning and choose to still continue in your belief.

Honestly, it sounds like we have very different ideas of how to define faith.

Can you show me a defintion of faith where it defines faith as being a by product of blinding oneself to "good" reasoning?


"belief and trust in and loyalty to God; firm belief in something for which there is no proof"


Faith - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

 

[TBradyOwnsYou]

Honestly, it sounds like we have very different ideas of how to define faith.

Can you show me a defintion of faith where it defines faith as being a by product of blinding oneself to "good" reasoning?


"belief and trust in and loyalty to God; firm belief in something for which there is no proof"


Faith - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

"firm belief in something for which there is no proof" - from your link

My attempt was to discuss faith without invoking a particular usage of faith (such as the belief in a god).

An example for blinding oneself to reason would be the creationist movement in America.

 

[RI Patriots fan]

Atheism is simply the lack of belief. It is the blank slate. An Antitheist is someone who denies theism. Whilst they are often portrayed as one in the same, they are not. (example: Asexuality is not a rejection of sexuality, it is a lack of sexuality.)

Think of it like this: each religion is a television channel. Atheism is a powered off TV.

If I can't deny something before I hear it, I also cannot know it. If you'd like to choose a different word to use other than atheism for this so as to not confuse yourself, I'd be happy to use whatever word you want, but saying that one cannot be born with a disbelief does not in any way whatsoever validate the claim that one can be born WITH a belief, no matter what word you choose to call it.

Actually, atheism is a denial of God. That is the definition of the word.

I'm not the least bit confused...lol. Trust me, nothing you could ever say or think would confuse me.

Now if you want to change the word and use another thats fine.

The word you are looking for is ignorance. We are born with an ignorance of God just like we are born with an ignorance of most eveything.

Since your claim was that we are born atheist, and atheists by definition deny the existence of God, one couldn't be ignorant of God. Since it is impossible for a newborn to know anything, it is impossible for them to deny anything and therefore impossible for them to be atheists.

Use another name is you like but as you mentioned earlier, words do have definitions.

 

[RI Patriots fan]

"firm belief in something for which there is no proof" - from your link

My attempt was to discuss faith without invoking a particular usage of faith (such as the belief in a god).

An example for blinding oneself to reason would be the creationist movement in America.

Well, how does creationism fit into the definition of "faith". As you repeated:

"firm belief in something for which there is no proof".

Does this mean that all "faith" is good faith? You mentioned earlier that there is "good" reasoning....can there be "bad" or faulty reasoning as well?

 

[TBradyOwnsYou]

Actually, atheism is a denial of God. That is the definition of the word.

I'm not the least bit confused...lol. Trust me, nothing you could ever say or think would confuse me.

Now if you want to change the word and use another thats fine.

The word you are looking for is ignorance. We are born with an ignorance of God just like we are born with an ignorance of most eveything.

Since your claim was that we are born atheist, and atheists by definition deny the existence of God, one couldn't be ignorant of God. Since it is impossible for a newborn to know anything, it is impossible for them to deny anything and therefore impossible for them to be atheists.

Use another name is you like but as you mentioned earlier, words do have definitions.

Prefixes

A is a prefix, as is anti. Rules of the English language do not change just because you found a wrong definition on the internet.

 

[RI Patriots fan]

Prefixes

A is a prefix, as is anti. Rules of the English language do not change just because you found a wrong definition on the internet.

One definition??....how about every definition I could find:


"a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings"

Atheist | Define Atheist at Dictionary.com



"one who believes that there is no deity"


Atheist - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary



"someone who denies the existence of god"


atheist - definition of atheist by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.



"someone who believes that God or gods do not exist"


atheist noun - definition in British English Dictionary & Thesaurus - Cambridge Dictionary Online



"disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods"


Definition of atheism in Oxford Dictionaries (British & World English)


Let me guess.....they're all wrong as well

 

[TBradyOwnsYou]

One definition??....how about every definition I could find:


"a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings"

Atheist | Define Atheist at Dictionary.com



"one who believes that there is no deity"


Atheist - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary



"someone who denies the existence of god"


atheist - definition of atheist by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.



"someone who believes that God or gods do not exist"


atheist noun - definition in British English Dictionary & Thesaurus - Cambridge Dictionary Online



"disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods"


Definition of atheism in Oxford Dictionaries (British & World English)


Let me guess.....they're all wrong as well

You either understand how words are formed or you do not. We started with faith and now you want me to teach you about prefixes. Congrats on your derail.

 

[RI Patriots fan]

You either understand how words are formed or you do not. We started with faith and now you want me to teach you about prefixes. Congrats on your derail.

So should we get Webster and Dictionary.com on the phone and let them know that they don't know what they're talking about?

 

[TBradyOwnsYou]

So should we get Webster and Dictionary.com on the phone and let them know that they don't know what they're talking about?

Are you intentionally obtuse or are you really just a moron? Do you not see the Oxford definition? It agrees with me, but not with the others.

Hmm, how can we resolve this discrepancy? Let's try the scientific way:
Grammatical rules we learned as children, word formation.
Root word: Theist
definition: belief in a god or gods
prefix: a
meaning: without
Therefore atheist = without belief in a god or gods

Now let's try your method, the religious method.
I want something to be true.
Evidence points to me being wrong.
Ignore that evidence.
Find something to back me up.
If all else fails, just repeat it as often as possible until everyone else gives up trying to converse with me.

Yaaaaay. You've pointed out exactly why I don't want a person who uses faith to be in charge of anything, because that indoctrinated method of ignoring logic prevents you from seeing reality, even if it doesn't relate to the thing you're using your faith for (ie: god).

 

[RI Patriots fan]

Are you intentionally obtuse or are you really just a moron? Do you not see the Oxford definition? It agrees with me, but not with the others.

Hmm, how can we resolve this discrepancy? Let's try the scientific way:
Grammatical rules we learned as children, word formation.
Root word: Theist
definition: belief in a god or gods
prefix: a
meaning: without
Therefore atheist = without belief in a god or gods

Now let's try your method, the religious method.
I want something to be true.
Evidence points to me being wrong.
Ignore that evidence.
Find something to back me up.
If all else fails, just repeat it as often as possible until everyone else gives up trying to converse with me.

Yaaaaay. You've pointed out exactly why I don't want a person who uses faith to be in charge of anything, because that indoctrinated method of ignoring logic prevents you from seeing reality, even if it doesn't relate to the thing you're using your faith for (ie: god).

I've found that when someone has to resort to ad hominems one (or more) of three things is true about that person:

1.) lack of intelligence
2.) lack of maturity
3.) weak argument

I'm not going to waste my time with someone who has to resort to name calling. There are plenty of posters on Patsfan who are intelligent enough and mature enough that they don't need to resort to name calling.

Posters like you aren't worth my time. Sorry....buh bye.

 

[TBradyOwnsYou]

I've found that when someone has to resort to ad hominems one (or more) of three things is true about that person:

1.) lack of intelligence
2.) lack of maturity
3.) weak argument

I'm not going to waste my time with someone who has to resort to name calling. There are plenty of posters on Patsfan who are intelligent enough and mature enough that they don't need to resort to name calling.

Posters like you aren't worth my time. Sorry....buh bye.