Cunningham vs Dunlap, Revisited

[NEPats1]

Exactly - Bill had gotten the complete 'Bill of Sale' before the draft due to close relationship with Urban Meyer. Sadly now though - Urban has resigned.

The time we should start second guessing the drafts 'Stop and Shop(er)' - is when he whiffs on a pick. From what we have seen so far on a rookie season , Cunningham was not a whiff.

Dude no worries...the pipeline continues!

One thing to remember is that Bill Belichick has strong ties to that Texas program with defensive coordinator Will Muschamp.

Chat: Chat with Mike Reiss - SportsNation - ESPN Boston

An added bonus is that Bill Belichick has a background with Texas defensive coordinator Will Muschamp, so you know he's getting the straight scoop.

Four-headed mock draft - New England Patriots Blog - ESPN Boston

 

[kierkegaard]

It is also ridiculous to compare two players at two vastly different positions, even if they are both rookies.

Dunlap plays OLB and is probably asked to rush the passer a lot.

Suh plays DT, a position that almost never gets double digit sacks and where sacks are much more difficult to come by.

That isn't meant to take away from what Dunlap has managed to do at the tail end of the season, however.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

So my favorite high risk, high reward prospect from the 2010 draft, Carlos Dunlap, has been an absolute monster for Cincinnatti the past 6 weeks.

Dunlap, a Florida Gator selected one pick after teammate Cunningham in the second round, has 8 sacks in the past 6 games. I believe Suh has 9 in 15 games.

Dunlap was the total package physically, just young, immature, and his dedication was questioned.

Was Cunningham the better pick for the Pats

Hindsight being 20/20, Cunningham might have still been available late in round 2 or even round 3.

I make no bones about it, Dunlap was a guy I wanted the Patriots to draft real bad.

However I realize that he he would have had to transition to OLB just like Cunningham is now; he would have to drop in coverage, just like Cunningham is terrible at doing now; and he would have to learn to set the hard edge, just as Cunningham is getting better at doing now.

So the question is impossible to answer, but as front 7 of G Warren - Cody - Wilfork followed by Dunlap - Guyton - Mayo -Ninkovich seems much more stout against the run and more viscious in the pass rush than what we have now.

 

[Deus Irae]

Cunningham has been decent but it's obvious so far Dunlap's been more productive when playing.

Given that Cunningham has more tackles even as he's learning an entirely new position, I don't see how it's "obvious" that Dunlap's been more productive.

 

[Snake Eyes]

It helps when you have freakishly long arms, like Dunlap. Easier to disengage and see the action.

Dunlap was described as a once every 5 year specimen. Are there any long armed comparisons in the 2011 draft

For starters, the arms are a lever, the longer they are the more force it takes to move something, this is why championship weightlifters have very short arms. I believe the idea that a defender needs superlong arms is nonsense, but that's just me.

Next, unless you can dig up a time machine we're stuck with Cunningham, IMO the only thing that's relevant is how he can be made into a better player, and I think intelligently designed strength and technique training will help do that.

 

[TruthSeeker]

Not drafting Rey Maualuga cost us the '09 playoff game, imho.

I had little hope going into that playoff game and my fears were confirmed. You must think the world of Maualuga to think that any one player was going to change the outcome of that game. Somehow, I think it would have taken more than 1 good player to significantly alter the outcome.

 

[Charles Barwin]

For starters, the arms are a lever, the longer they are the more force it takes to move something, this is why championship weightlifters have very short arms. I believe the idea that a defender needs superlong arms is nonsense, but that's just me.

Next, unless you can dig up a time machine we're stuck with Cunningham, IMO the only thing that's relevant is how he can be made into a better player, and I think intelligently designed strength and technique training will help do that.

See my post about Greg Romeus, and trying to find another Dunlap type, which is the prototype BB 3/4 OLB physique, btw.

Length plus power plus speed is the goal.

 

[JackBauer]

I make no bones about it, Dunlap was a guy I wanted the Patriots to draft real bad.

However I realize that he he would have had to transition to OLB just like Cunningham is now; he would have to drop in coverage, just like Cunningham is terrible at doing now; and he would have to learn to set the hard edge, just as Cunningham is getting better at doing now.

So the question is impossible to answer, but as front 7 of G Warren - Cody - Wilfork followed by Dunlap - Guyton - Mayo -Ninkovich seems much more stout against the run and more viscious in the pass rush than what we have now.

Another one of your subtle paeans to all things Terrence Cody. I'm not one to judge defensive lineman based on their statistical production, but you're right: it's a real shame we got the scrubs we did in the second round instead of the wunderkind Cody who has started one game for the Ravens and recorded an astounding nine tackles on the year.

Considering every player the Patriots selected in the 2nd round is better than Cody, I'm a bit baffled by your nostalgia for the guy.

 

[Snake Eyes]

See my post about Greg Romeus, and trying to find another Dunlap type, which is the prototype BB 3/4 OLB physique, btw.

Length plus power plus speed is the goal.

Aldon Smith fits the mold but he might not be available this year.

As far as 'the goal', longer limbs take more force to move something which reduces power potential, as I said, there's a reason champion powerlifters have short limbs, long armed guys would get owned in those competitions, sorry but that's just physics.

As for this draft, there might not be a perfect Linebacker for BB to draft, and it could very well be that a OLB doesnt give us the greatest impact on the field. Also, BB might take more into consideration when evaluating a player than their physique.

 

[condon84]

Given that Cunningham has more tackles even as he's learning an entirely new position, I don't see how it's "obvious" that Dunlap's been more productive.

Both play positions that calls for them to be the main pass rushers for their defenses, and while Cunningham has more tackles, sacks are more indicative of how effective they are playing their positions.

I like Cunningham and he may well go on to have a better career and a better player, but right now, I don't see how you can say Cunningham is a better player than Dunlap.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

Another one of your subtle paeans to all things Terrence Cody. I'm not one to judge defensive lineman based on their statistical production, but you're right: it's a real shame we got the scrubs we did in the second round instead of the wunderkind Cody who has started one game for the Ravens and recorded an astounding nine tackles on the year.

Considering every player the Patriots selected in the 2nd round is better than Cody, I'm a bit baffled by your nostalgia for the guy.

I can't help it if Baltimore is using Cody incorrectly.

 

[Snake Eyes]

I can't help it if Baltimore is using Cody incorrectly.

How would you use Cody on our defense? I can't help but think he has the potential to be damn affective here.

 

[Brady-To-Branch]

Cunningham would have more sacks if he could tackle...

Sacks and tackles are deceptive stats. That said, Cunningham has whiffed on too many sacks.

However, Cunningham has had a solid rookie season and has been getting pressure on the QB at times and has been solid vs the run. He's not setting the world on fire, but for a player who missed time in preseason and moved from a 4-3 to a 3-4, Cunningham's future looks bright.

It was his pressure that forced a Peyton INT to James Sanders that sealed the game for the Pats.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

How would you use Cody on our defense? I can't help but think he has the potential to be damn affective here.

I would put Cody on the nose and move Wilfork to DE. Cody is incredibly difficult to move and handles double teams amazingly well. That frees up Mayo and Guyton to clean up the trash and/or blitz without having to shed OG's or C's.

 

[VJCPatriot]

So my favorite high risk, high reward prospect from the 2010 draft, Carlos Dunlap, has been an absolute monster for Cincinnatti the past 6 weeks.

Dunlap, a Florida Gator selected one pick after teammate Cunningham in the second round, has 8 sacks in the past 6 games. I believe Suh has 9 in 15 games.

Dunlap was the total package physically, just young, immature, and his dedication was questioned.

Was Cunningham the better pick for the Pats

Hindsight being 20/20, Cunningham might have still been available late in round 2 or even round 3.

Doesn't Cinci play a different defensive system from the Pats? I remember clearly thinking that Mauluga wasn't a fit for the Pats system (he wasn't), but Mayo was. So there's no guarantee that Dunlap would have succeeded in the Pats system. Dunlap was a high risk/high reward type player and the Bengals got a good player. Good on them. But I don't regret BB taking Cunningham, the guy has been a solid all around player with room to improve.

 

[Snake Eyes]

I would put Cody on the nose and move Wilfork to DE. Cody is incredibly difficult to move and handles double teams amazingly well. That frees up Mayo and Guyton to clean up the trash and/or blitz without having to shed OG's or C's.

Do you think Baltimore would bee willing to trade him, if so what do you think they'd want?

 

[Deus Irae]

Both play positions that calls for them to be the main pass rushers for their defenses, and while Cunningham has more tackles, sacks are more indicative of how effective they are playing their positions.

I like Cunningham and he may well go on to have a better career and a better player, but right now, I don't see how you can say Cunningham is a better player than Dunlap.

1.) I didn't make that claim. I responded to your claim, which is pretty clearly not a fair assessment if you're pointing to the stats, as you did, because you were ignoring the tackles.

2.) Minimizing tackles in favor of sacks makes no sense. The players are playing different positions, and you're slanting the argument.

 

[Wretch]

2.) Minimizing tackles in favor of sacks is ridiculous. They are playing different positions, and you're slanting the argument.

I agree with DI here. Sacks are a glamorous stat but don't necessarily reflect actual on field performance. When looking at LBers you need to look at the whole package: tackles, tackles for loss, QB pressures, sacks, INTs, forced fumbles and fumble recoveries to really judge a player.

I pose this question would you rather have have Andre Tippet in his prime or Kevin Greene? Greene has more a lot more sacks but Andre is a HOFer and was a better all around player. Both played OLB.

 

[NG Pats Fan]

I think it's realistic to say Carlos Dunlap is a much better pass rusher than Cunningham. Dunlap finished the season with 9.5 sacks!! WOW..We would have loved to have that kind of production. I like Cunningham, but I am shocked BB missed out on Dunlap over Cunningham.

 

[RobertWeathers]

I think it's realistic to say Carlos Dunlap is a much better pass rusher than Cunningham. Dunlap finished the season with 9.5 sacks!! WOW..We would have loved to have that kind of production. I like Cunningham, but I am shocked BB missed out on Dunlap over Cunningham.

What if JC nets 7 sacks next year and is better vs the run and is better in coverage while Dunlap stays the same? Would you rather have the sack master or the better overall defensive player?