Cap Hell

[masterbouncer]

the thing is you can have 15M Cap hit on Agholor or on Robinson or 13M on Smith, thats the difference on how you use the Cap
looking at whom the Pats have a major chunk of their Cap compared to their output is the problem, BB recently had some big headscratching contracts for players that have so less impact (so far) on the game that you really wonder why BB overpaid, some of those examples are non-factors like Agholor, Smith, Wise etc. but also others next to a really bad strech of drafts in recent years

however in 2023 when the dust is cleared I think the Pats have a chance to get back in the game pending a great draft class in 2022 and 2023 AND not extending a bunch of JAGs for high leve-money
looking at the FA class of the Pats next year there are not many must-have players, of course it depends on how they develop but considereing the number of FA and what those players have shown so far its perhaps 5-6 players that really would help further on and non of them is kind of an impact player, so extend yes but no where near throwing money at them

having said that I don't want the Pats to overpay for external players as well, be there top10 but don't set the market unless the player is young and elite (proven elite)

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

• We‘re currently in a year where the cap increased a whopping 14%, a huge outlier, mainly due to last year’s decrease.
• Teams are finding more aggressive ways to avoid cap hits, as restructuring becomes the norm and void years are no longer reserved for the big QB deals.

 

[skinnydog]

Supposedly, KC is converting Mahomes 2022 $27 mil roster bonus into signing bonus money. They did the same thing last year. Patrick Mahomes Contract Details, Salary Cap Charges, Bonus Money, and Contract History | Over The Cap

The Saints were in cap hell just a few years ago.

The Saints were supposed to be in Cap hell this year and somehow got out of it without any cuts. So being cap cost conscious and waiting for the rest of the league to get into cap hell and have to cut or not resign really good players seems like a fools errand. I guess it happens occasionally, but not often.

 

[skinnydog]

• We‘re currently in a year where the cap increased a whopping 14%, a huge outlier, mainly due to last year’s decrease.
• Teams are finding more aggressive ways to avoid cap hits, as restructuring becomes the norm and void years are no longer reserved for the big QB deals.

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I think it is supposed to increase even more than that in the next couple of years with new TV deals bringing in a lot more money.

 

[Bradybranch]

if that were true the saints wouldn't have started this offseason 80 million over the cap, and are now currently 30 million under the cap, without having cut anyone.

Cap hell is a myth teams use to not spend money.

Saints are projected to be 30 million over the cap in 2023. They have been losing good players and don't even have a QB.

 

[sean10mm]

Basically teams are getting better at gaming the cap with dummy years on contracts and what's a bonus vs. salary and stuff like that, but there are still limits.

I think the cap hell thing was more a late 90s-early 2000s phenomenon when teams didn't really know how to game the system. I think the Titans in particular really slammed into a salary cap brick wall after 2003 for instance.

 

[RIpats88]

Why does it seem the Patriots are the only team who can't afford to pay players "due to the cap"

 

[RobertWeathers]

Basically teams are getting better at gaming the cap with dummy years on contracts and what's a bonus vs. salary and stuff like that, but there are still limits.

I think the cap hell thing was more a late 90s-early 2000s phenomenon when teams didn't really know how to game the system. I think the Titans in particular really slammed into a salary cap brick wall after 2003 for instance.

Dummy years are just another way of transferring credit card debt

 

[Dragda]

Tweet or DM @patscap on Twitter and post his reply here. Specifically, how did the Saints get 30 M under the cap without cutting anyone

 

[Guts]

The Saints were supposed to be in Cap hell this year and somehow got out of it without any cuts. So being cap cost conscious and waiting for the rest of the league to get into cap hell and have to cut or not resign really good players seems like a fools errand. I guess it happens occasionally, but not often.

Yeah I thought cap was fake too but if you really look into it the Saints are pretty much in cap hell. They had to restructure a lot of players, they're most likely losing their stud tackle in Armstead and lost a quality safety.

 

[nextsuperstar]

Yeah I thought cap was fake too but if you really look into it the Saints are pretty much in cap hell. They had to restructure a lot of players, they're most likely losing their stud tackle in Armstead and lost a quality safety.

And they’re projected to be over a massively increased future cap with few players under contract. At some point they can’t stop Pushing dead money into future seasons without it affecting their ability to sign/retain players.

 

[50-yard-line]

"Kraft is cheap" is a silly statement, but yes, the Pats are playing it more conservatively than other organizations. So yes, there is a grain of truth to it.

When a team converts salary to bonus to defer the cap, they have to pony up CASH immediately to pay out that bonus. So all the moves the Saints made this year means that the owner is opening up the wallet big time - right now, as opposed to spreading it down the road.

The VOID years are a terrible tool that will create all kinds of problems, imo, and should not be allowed. The NFL has allowed arms' races where teams can blow through the CAP massively and hang on the edge of a cliff for several years...and in a QB-dominated league (because of rule changes), the teams who feel set there will have to do it to get the big pieces.

As for the pushing of CAP, the example the Pats fans should look at to keep sane is...Stephon Gilmore. Signing a player for a top end deal and pushing the cap means that the end of that deal, which won't be top-end anymore, and you hear things like "Why would Gilmore play for $7 million when so-and-so is making 16?"

Of course, he's not playing for $7 million - it's just that he got gobs of the current year's $$$ early.

So the NFL, by the way they're allowing CAP manipulation, is creating bad situations for lots of teams. This year, NO, Tampa (again), LA (again), Buffalo, the Raiders, the Chargers, and possibly the Bengals* are all in gamble mode. Seemingly, it unbalances the league as much as it used to be when they tried to find some parity...but it also means that these teams are going to eat it big time when the piper calls.

It also creates massive pay disparities around the league, which also will be detrimental. Football isn't basketball, and adding big name pieces doesn't mean as much in the NFL, but it still distorts the game detrimentally.

(Not including the Broncos because they added the centerpiece for years to come, which is a bit different)

 

[ctpatsfan77]

no, you convert money to bonuses, which spreads that money out on the cap, but gives it to the player right away. players don't need to agree to it, teams can just do it willy nilly.

the trick is to add a bunch of extra years without guarenteed money to spread that cap hit out, players need to agree to this bit.

So you have the von miller deal for the bills

60 mil in the first three years, of a 6 year contract, a good chunk of that 60 mil is bonuses, those bonuses are spread out over the entire 6 years in terms of cap hits, so they end up giving him 60 million in three years, but in terms of the cap they are only giving him "30ish"

Player gets a bag, team gets to play with monopoly money.

Only if the contract has a clause to that effect. Otherwise it takes a renegotiation just like anything else.

 

[Sciz]

When a team converts salary to bonus to defer the cap, they have to pony up CASH immediately to pay out that bonus. So all the moves the Saints made this year means that the owner is opening up the wallet big time - right now, as opposed to spreading it down the road.

Old friend Nick Underhill (now back in NO) has said recently that the Saints started paying some "signing bonuses" in weekly installments along with salary payments, so the actual cash flow doesn't even change.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

Yeah I thought cap was fake too but if you really look into it the Saints are pretty much in cap hell. They had to restructure a lot of players, they're most likely losing their stud tackle in Armstead and lost a quality safety.

And they're already 30M over next year's cap, meaning they'll do this all again.

 

[Fubby]

I was told that having a starting QB on a rookie deal was the absolute best situation to be in. Lots of money for good players in other positions and you can win games. Patriots seem to be attempting to disprove that philosophy

 

[Brotherblues]

NFL Cap Management could legit be a college degree

 

[Brotherblues]

What if the best time to strike is not when everyone else is going all-in for this season?

Just thinking out loud. Seemingly a ton of teams are kicking cap cans down the road. Maybe the best time to make a big splash and serious run for it is in Mac's third and fourth seasons when he's more developed, still super cheap, and a lot of today's "super teams" are paying the price of going for broke (and there's quite a few of those).

Now I know it's not the kind of stuff anyone wants to hear but... Again, just thinking out loud.

 

[paco130]

I was told that having a starting QB on a rookie deal was the absolute best situation to be in. Lots of money for good players in other positions and you can win games. Patriots seem to be attempting to disprove that philosophy

Agreed

 

[40yrpatsfan]

If you sign a guy to a 3 yr/$30m contract with $15m signing bonus, your cap gets charged with Bonus of $5m/year, plus Salary of something like $3m/$6m/$6m. So year 1 cap charge=$8m (5+3), year 2=$11m (5+6), and year 3=$11m (5+6). If it turns out to be a bad signing and you cut or trade him after year 2, then in year 3 your cap is charged $5m in dead money (for the bonus but not the salary assuming it's not guaranteed). That's a big part of the risk of paying a big bonus - that the player may not work out and you let him go and face a ton of dead $$.

If you have an existing player making $15m/yr for 3 more years ($45m total), you can create cap space this year by paying him say a $21m bonus ($7m cap charge per year), and salaries of say $2m-11m-11m. Thus the cap charge this year gets reduced from $15m to $9m (7+2), but in year 2 it's $18m and year 3 it's $18m. So if you cut him after yr 2, the dead $$ in year 3 is $7m. A player will always agree to converting salary to bonus because you're essentially paying him future year salaries up front.

There's no getting around those facts. You have to gamble that the player will play out his contract, and that the cap will keep going up which is not a guarantee. The only way to work around it is to keep doing this with more of your players and FA's, getting youself into potentially more hot water.

A main reason we've had our long run of being competitive is showing good discipline with the cap and bonus conversions. Because most salaries are not guaranteed, BB was able to cut guys he thought were overpaid without any dead money cap charge.