BOTTOM LINE - Entering NFL Employees Have No Choice

[BTTA]

Random thoughts on this:

• -@mgteich's point is a matter of principle. It has nothing to do with how much they make, and arguments that the players high salaries are a trade for their economic freedom actually reinforces his point.
• 
  
• -At the same time, very few people actually get to choose from a range of employers. Even in the US, the majority of people have a limited number of options, and the "professional class" of college grads with multiple employment offers is shrinking daily. Reality has a way of redefining the ideals of freedom.

-Kids who are on scholarship at a Power 5 school don't get an education that allows them to choose a different profession. Generally, there are 3 or 4 degree programs that are structured so as to be compatible with football, which takes up far more of their time than does coursework. And those programs don't naturally feed into a field of work. These aren't really college students, which has been true for a long time but has only been addressed recently through payment for services.

-One way to address some of the inequities in this would be through a single medical/disability program from college through the pros that compensates them for injuries received on the job to the degree that they aren't dramatically set back in life.

 

[mgteich]

There are literally LOAN Forgiveness programs that do essentially this for doctors, nurses, and teachers.

Where do you get off claiming that these guys in the NFL are getting 10% pay? Rookie contracts are $795K dude. Newsflash.. PEOPLE straight out of college aren't making the same as degreed people who have been working for a company for 10 years.


You seemed to have missed the 80s and 90s when there was no real Free Agency and such. And teams could just spend however much they wanted to keep their dominance.
Your entire spiel is based on you looking at it as if what happens in HS and College means a damn thing to the NFL. It doesn't and shouldn't.

Like every person who has never owned a business, you think that the owners shouldn't get s**t for their time and effort and money THEY put into things. Players are set to receive $8.172B this year. And that doesn't include a whole bunch of perks like medical. The owners portions are LESS than that, in case you've forgotten. And the owners don't get to keep the money not spent.. If they don't meet the cap floor, it get's paid out to the players who were a part of said team during said years they didn't meet the cap floor.

There are literally students who put in 8-10 years on COLLEGE, Graduate, and go to work at Starbucks with $500K in debt. Why should these kids have a choice beyond submitting their resume to the entity known as the NFL? The DRAFT is just different divisions deciding where an employee will work. The candidate doesn't have to sign a contract even if they are drafted. They can sit out a year and go back into the draft. Or they can go somewhere else. Like Canada. Or go find a company to work at in their major..

JUST TO CLARIFY
Owners should make whatever money they can, subject to negotiations with the players. The CBA is critical to that success.

Players have the rights dictated to them in the CBA. The very few that make an NFL team must make their money in a 3-4 average time in the NFL. Most of the tens of thousands that have sacrificed their bodies and time for football end up with very little to show for their time other than injuries that will last a lifetime. Yes, they have a college degree, a pittance of return for the millions they have brought their schools.

I am NOT questioning the golden goose. It works for owners and players. I was just musing about an industry where the very best of the best work most of their careers for an employer that they didn't choose. [What percentage play longer than their rookie contract?]

 

[Tunescribe]

JUST TO CLARIFY
Owners should make whatever money they can, subject to negotiations with the players. The CBA is critical to that success.

Players have the rights dictated to them in the CBA. The very few that make an NFL team must make their money in a 3-4 average time in the NFL. Most of the tens of thousands that have sacrificed their bodies and time for football end up with very little to show for their time other than injuries that will last a lifetime. Yes, they have a college degree, a pittance of return for the millions they have brought their schools.

I am NOT questioning the golden goose. It works for owners and players. I was just musing about an industry where the very best of the best work most of their careers for an employer that they didn't choose. [What percentage play longer than their rookie contract?]

If I hear one more time about NFL players "sacrificing their bodies," I'm gonna puke. Real-world comps just don't apply to pampered, privileged athletes who do what they do (from high school-on) purely through CHOICE every step of the way. The vast majority of them make enough money in just one season to establish a secure financial foundation and if they last three years, they qualify for the NFL pension. That's Easy Street from pretty much the get-go.

 

[0818NePa]

If I hear one more time about NFL players "sacrificing their bodies," I'm gonna puke. Real-world comps just don't apply to pampered, privileged athletes who do what they do (from high school-on) purely through CHOICE every step of the way. The vast majority of them make enough money in just one season to establish a secure financial foundation and if they last three years, they qualify for the NFL pension. That's Easy Street from pretty much the get-go.

Kids are forced to fight among themselves as the ancient gladiators for the amusement of the people. Of course in a condition of forced servitude. Everybody knows that ...

 

[mgteich]

If I hear one more time about NFL players "sacrificing their bodies," I'm gonna puke. Real-world comps just don't apply to pampered, privileged athletes who do what they do (from high school-on) purely through CHOICE every step of the way. The vast majority of them make enough money in just one season to establish a secure financial foundation and if they last three years, they qualify for the NFL pension. That's Easy Street from pretty much the get-go.

I agree that the few of the many tens of thousands of college football players who play in the NFL for 3 years do very well indeed.

 

[HSanders]

now that players get paid in college and can txfer anywhere they want if the school will take them,i think that's more than fair compensation for being drafted.

 

[XLIX]

The reality is that the players have haven agreement that forces new employees to work for someone they don't wish to work for. They have no choice for four years. Yes, they are paid well. Previous players have negotiated with regard to how much current players are paid.

Except for a relative few, NFL employees have zero to do with who they work for when they are hired, and for 4 years. As an aside, many players would succeed much better if they were able to negotiate and decide their employer.

I would love to see someone challenge the draft system in federal court. Just because something is in a CBA does not mean a court can not overrule it based on a fundamental lack of fairness.

As this thread proves, the rookies do not get much sympathy because they make a lot of money. But just because they make a lot of money doesn't mean the system is fair.

It would be a longshot, but I bet it would scare the living hell out of the League(s). It might even scare them enough to find some sort of compromise.

 

[Keep Up With The Joneses]

They can go play for the Canadian Football League, the United Football League, and many others.

My current job is in Connecticut. If I decide to take my talents to Saudi Arabia, I can earn 5x what I earn now, but I have to go somewhere I don't want to work.

If you want to earn the big money, sometimes you have to make sacrifices. NFL rookies are no different.

 

[XLIX]

My current job is in Connecticut. If I decide to take my talents to Saudi Arabia, I can earn 5x what I earn now, but I have to go somewhere I don't want to work.

Not sure what your point is here. What you have told us is you have multiple opportunities available to you but you got to choose where you work and you have exercised that right by choosing CT over Saudi Arabia, but other people should not have that same privilege which you exercised yourself.

 

[Keep Up With The Joneses]

Not sure what your point is here. What you have told us is you have multiple opportunities available to you but you got to choose where you work and you have exercised that right by choosing CT over Saudi Arabia, but other people should not have that same privilege which you exercised yourself.

My point is if you want to make the money you choose the NFL and possibly go where you don't want to go (as I would have had to go to Saudi Arabia if I wanted to make the big $). Alternatively they are welcome to choose a different league and make less money but exercise their freedom of choice (as I did choosing CT and significantly less money).

I'm not sure which part is unclear.

 

[TheRainMaker]

The draft should still be eliminated. Colleges can go recruit whoever they want, but players are forced into a draft when going pro? If a player went Ed O’Bannon and challenged this in any sport, they’d probably win. They don’t fight it because they don’t care and just want to be the highest player picked. Rarely you get players that give resistance such as John Elway, Kobe Bryant, Eli Manning and Lonzo Ball to name a few. I like seeing players taking control of their own destiny.

 

[XLIX]

My point is if you want to make the money you choose the NFL and possibly go where you don't want to go (as I would have had to go to Saudi Arabia if I wanted to make the big $). Alternatively they are welcome to choose a different league and make less money but exercise their freedom of choice (as I did choosing CT and significantly less money).

You picked a very strange way to make your point because you literally told us "I had the following options available to me and I chose option A over option B but I don't think NFL rookies should have the right to choose where they work the way I chose where I worked."

So it really wasn't the flex you thought it was.

 

[mgteich]

I would love to see someone challenge the draft system in federal court. Just because something is in a CBA does not mean a court can not overrule it based on a fundamental lack of fairness.

As this thread proves, the rookies do not get much sympathy because they make a lot of money. But just because they make a lot of money doesn't mean the system is fair.

It would be a longshot, but I bet it would scare the living hell out of the League(s). It might even scare them enough to find some sort of compromise.

You think that the court can enforce a right to "fairness"? There is no such legal doctrine.

Besides, the Congress has passed laws that allow the NFL and CBA to negotiate the rules.

 

[XLIX]

You think that the court can enforce a right to "fairness"? There is no such legal doctrine.

A court can - and most certainly does - invalidate contracts (or specific portions of contracts) based on a fundamental lack of equitable fairness.

Besides, the Congress has passed laws that allow the NFL and CBA to negotiate the rules.

And courts exist to shoot down things Congress does when Congress violates pre-existing laws.

I said it would be a longshot but the rookies could certainly make the argument that nobody represented them in good faith when the CBA was agreed to. If they could establish that as a fact, they would have a very strong case to not be beholden to it.

 

[Keep Up With The Joneses]

You picked a very strange way to make your point because you literally told us "I had the following options available to me and I chose option A over option B but I don't think NFL rookies should have the right to choose where they work the way I chose where I worked."

So it really wasn't the flex you thought it was.

No one is trying to "flex." Reading comprehension is clearly an issue for you.

I had a choice to work for different employers and make more or less money. Football players have a choice to work for different leagues and make more or less money.

Nowhere in either of my posts did I suggest football players don't have a right to choose. But if they choose the NFL (higher paying) over a different league (lower paying), they won't necessarily get to play where they want.

I've explained this 3 times now. No one else doesn't get it except you.

 

[XLIX]

No one is trying to "flex." Reading comprehension is clearly an issue for you.

Exactly. You had a choice and yet you are denying others the right to make a similar choice.

Reading comprehension is clearly an issue for you.

I had a choice to work for different employers and make more or less money. Football players have a choice to work for different leagues and make more or less money.

The NFL has legally been declared a monopoly. The fact that minor league football exists does not change that. So to bring up other Leagues as NFL competitors is, much like yourself, completely intellectually bankrupt.

Nowhere in either of my posts did I suggest football players don't have a right to choose. But if they choose the NFL (higher paying) over a different league (lower paying), they won't necessarily get to play where they want.

I've explained this 3 times now. No one else doesn't get it except you.

Here's what you don't get: The NFL is not an employer*. The NFL is 32 independent businesses. Teams have gone to court and argued they are 32 independent businesses - and won. That's why one team's official beer is Miller and another team's official beer is Forever New England Gameday IPA.

They are 32 independent business who collude to limit opportunity and pay for new employees. This would be illegal in every single walk of life except sports for some reason known but to God.

*Well, the NFL does have front office employees but obviously we are not talking about a position in the NFL League office when we discuss this year's crop of rookies.

 

[Sam Bam Cunningham]

The reality is that the players have haven agreement that forces new employees to work for someone they don't wish to work for. They have no choice for four years. Yes, they are paid well. Previous players have negotiated with regard to how much current players are paid.

Except for a relative few, NFL employees have zero to do with who they work for when they are hired, and for 4 years. As an aside, many players would succeed much better if they were able to negotiate and decide their employer.
=================
So, let's be CLEAR, the players have dealt away a lot for a lot of money. And, of course, the consumers have the same right as always. They can buy the product or not. In fact, for this product, for almost ALL the time, the fans don't have to pay at all to see the product. They do have to pay to sit in a stadium.

Disagree with your premise. They are allowed to work for the NFL corporation. If they do not want to work for the NFL corporation, they can choose another league like USFL or XFL.
THe NFL then gives the employee their assignment in a location that the NFL chooses. How is the different than the US military, where the military assigns the soldier to a location where they are needed.

 

[XLIX]

Disagree with your premise. They are allowed to work for the NFL corporation.

1) There’s no such thing as “the NFL corporation.”
2) The players do not work for the NFL. They work for one of 32 independent businesses.

If they do not want to work for the NFL corporation, they can choose another league like USFL or XFL.

As mentioned above, the NFL has in the past been legally declared to be a football monopoly. As such, saying “they can join the USFL or XFL” is just not a valid legal argument.

THe NFL then gives the employee their assignment in a location that the NFL chooses.

That’s not true. The NFL doesn’t choose where the players go. The 32 independent entities which form the 32 NFL teams choose where the players go.

How is the different than the US military, where the military assigns the soldier to a location where they are needed.

If your defense of the system is to use the US military as a comparison, you’ve already lost the argument. The military is not beholden to civilian employment laws, CBA’s, minimum wage, right to work/right to quit, etc.

 

[Keep Up With The Joneses]

The draft should still be eliminated. Colleges can go recruit whoever they want, but players are forced into a draft when going pro? If a player went Ed O’Bannon and challenged this in any sport, they’d probably win. They don’t fight it because they don’t care and just want to be the highest player picked. Rarely you get players that give resistance such as John Elway, Kobe Bryant, Eli Manning and Lonzo Ball to name a few. I like seeing players taking control of their own destiny.

Exactly. You had a choice and yet you are denying others the right to make a similar choice.

Reading comprehension is clearly an issue for you.

The NFL has legally been declared a monopoly. The fact that minor league football exists does not change that. So to bring up other Leagues as NFL competitors is, much like yourself, completely intellectually bankrupt.

Here's what you don't get: The NFL is not an employer*. The NFL is 32 independent businesses. Teams have gone to court and argued they are 32 independent businesses - and won. That's why one team's official beer is Miller and another team's official beer is Forever New England Gameday IPA.

They are 32 independent business who collude to limit opportunity and pay for new employees. This would be illegal in every single walk of life except sports for some reason known but to God.

*Well, the NFL does have front office employees but obviously we are not talking about a position in the NFL League office when we discuss this year's crop of rookies.

I'm sure you've heard this before, but I feel dumber from having interaction with you. Every football player has a choice for whom they want to peddle their wares. Like most jobs if you want to make the most money, you have to often sacrifice other things. 4 times I have explained this now.

You are the unique combination of annoying, dense, and snarky that makes people not want to converse with you. 15,000 posts doesn't make you smarter, it just means you like to argue and don't have much else to do. Thank you mods for having an ignore button. See ya.

 

[Keep Up With The Joneses]

The draft should still be eliminated. Colleges can go recruit whoever they want, but players are forced into a draft when going pro? If a player went Ed O’Bannon and challenged this in any sport, they’d probably win. They don’t fight it because they don’t care and just want to be the highest player picked. Rarely you get players that give resistance such as John Elway, Kobe Bryant, Eli Manning and Lonzo Ball to name a few. I like seeing players taking control of their own destiny.

Exactly. You had a choice and yet you are denying others the right to make a similar choice.

Reading comprehension is clearly an issue for you.

The NFL has legally been declared a monopoly. The fact that minor league football exists does not change that. So to bring up other Leagues as NFL competitors is, much like yourself, completely intellectually bankrupt.

Here's what you don't get: The NFL is not an employer*. The NFL is 32 independent businesses. Teams have gone to court and argued they are 32 independent businesses - and won. That's why one team's official beer is Miller and another team's official beer is Forever New England Gameday IPA.

They are 32 independent business who collude to limit opportunity and pay for new employees. This would be illegal in every single walk of life except sports for some reason known but to God.

*Well, the NFL does have front office employees but obviously we are not talking about a position in the NFL League office when we discuss this year's crop of rookies.

I'm sure you've heard this before, but I feel dumber from having interaction with you. Every football player has a choice for whom they want to peddle their wares. Like most jobs if you want to make the most money, you have to often sacrifice other things. 4 times I have explained this now.

You like to use the term "intellectually bankrupt" yet you don't seem to understand basic concepts. The fact that the NFL is the only "big game" was determined by the free market. Other leagues with plenty of money have tried to compete, but simply can't put forth the same quality, so the customers decided it wasn't worth watching, and the leagues folded. That is not a monopoly.

The term "minor league" would suggest other competing leagues are a feeder system to some sort of "higher league." That is not what these competitors are. They are self-preserved entities. Again it is not the fault of the NFL that most people are not interested in them. Again, not a monopoly.

You are the unique combination of annoying, dense, and snarky that makes people not want to converse with you. 15,000 posts doesn't make you smarter, it just means you like to argue and don't have much else to do. Thank you mods for having an ignore button. See ya.

As for the adults in the room, I do agree that the NFL players contract sucks more than any other sport. That said, I don't think rookie free agency is an answer. This would likely lead to 6 teams or so that would annually suck up every top player. Fans of the other 26 would get tired of this and stop paying attention to their own team, leading to either teams folding up their tents or constantly moving. The league as we know it would cease to exist. I'm open to intellectual discussion on this.