PatsFans.com Menu
PatsFans.com - The Hub For New England Patriots Fans

Another Damning Concussion Study (I wish this was a joke)


Status
Not open for further replies.
I would be thrilled if this program comes to my area. Sounds great.

Check out the website.. Be pro-active and try and get it to your area to replace the current tackle league.. They did this in East Texas..
 
The accelorometers can give you the characteristic of motion....problem is that the correlation to biology will be subjective since while the mechanics are reproducible, what's inside every head is different

You could record endless data from the contactor, contactee......you would have everything in terms of the information about the physical nature....but accuracy will be compromised due to little things like helmet fit....will every helmet be calibrated to its head....will it change if the guy gets a haircut? How will the effect of the jaw slamming shut be included into that data? Constant base lining through periodic brain scanning could help in an individual basis

Awesome modeling challenge, but I think we all know the ultimate answer is actually very simple......contact will result in concussions

tl;dr version:
With all respect, you are thinking too small.

Data would be useful not just for concussions, but for the study of the relations between acceleration and many other neuronal, cognitive, and behavioral factors, in addition to the efficacy of different types of safety equipment in real-world conditions. Concussion is the neurobehavioral tip of the iceberg: focusing only on that would be like oncologists focusing only on people with stage 4 cancer. There's a lot more to it (sub-concussive data).

Long version

Regardless of the practical issues of implementing it, the claim that such data would not be useful seems simply patently false. Of *course* there will be a correlation, but what we are talking about is quantitative data that will allow us to go deeper. Science starts with correlations, but then delves in for causes and mechanisms. For instance, we know there is a correlation between smoking and cancer, so should we not study it in more detail, look at smoking frequency and relation to cancer, but also lung tissue damage, precursors to cancer, etc., try to get at the mechanistic details that lead up to it? This is where the scientific and clinical questions are often the most interesting. Not in the coarsest clinical expressions at the extremes, but the incremental changes that lead up to putative syndromes such as CTE. This is where intervention is still possible.

Data from humans could suggest useful hypotheses that could be tested in animal models, in which useful clinical solutions could be tested before being sent into the pipeline for practial applications in people. Or we could find that certain helmets and other protective technology clearly perform better than others in practical application (versus the laboratory of manufacturers). This would be a huge benefit to the players.

The suggestion that we would not want to have access to one of the key pieces of information relevant to a major problem in professional sports is impossible to justify on theoretical grounds. If it were too costly, that is one issue, but the bald claim that even if we could get such data, it would not be desirable? Nuts.

Obviously acceleration is just one piece of data, but an extremely important one. If the NFL really wanted to attack this, it would be one of the more obvious and useful data streams to provide neuroscientists and neurologists.

As far as practical challenges getting the thing to give accurate readout, that is a different issue, and if that were to make it impossible, then fine then it would not be possible. However, if haircuts are going to be the excuse, then we need to hire better engineers...It would likely be embedded in silicon at some optimized place in the helmet, so things like talking and jaw moving wouldn't significantly influence it (and those are going to have very low acceleration that can be filtered out in the analysis stage).

Noise and variability are all part of data analysis, science deals with variability all the time, it doesn't mean there still aren't correlations, or you can't troubleshoot/denoise/filter the data and find patterns. That's what statistics was invented for: to deal with real-world variability in data. Crash test dummies experience huge acceleration magnitudes and deltas and the data are extremely helpful. NFL players clashing produce acceleration and jerk a few orders of magnitude larger than when they chew gum, so my hunch is that the data would be pretty damned clear.

The thing to do is try it, not to talk about it endlessly. People who crap on cool ideas often end up not implementing them. Those who implement them to see if they will work tend to make the coolest things. I've seen this so many times I don't even listen to the poop talkers anymore, I go to the people who say "Let's build it and see how it goes" rather than the engineers whose first instinct is to say "Here's why that won't work." I work with both types, and the former always give me better widgets, faster, while the latter are still diddling away in AutoCad.

NFL players provide a real-life laboratory to collect invaluable data about brain injury. Do it Roger.
 
Last edited:
And while people were talking about why it wouldn't work, I just made one:
MEMS Accelerometer from STMicroelectronics Is Part of Newly Launched Brain Sentry Impact Sensor

ST_MEMS_Brain_Sentry_t3467s.jpg
 
Note the NFL was actually doing this, and suspended the program:
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/20/sports/football/nfl-suspends-use-of-helmet-sensors.html

Concussiongate: Who Tanked the NFL's In-helmet Sensor Program?

Unfortunately, it’s probably never going to happen because as typically is the case, it’s all about money. The NFL’s mantra seems to be “protect the shield, not the players.” The players’ mantra seems to be, “protect the wallet, not the brain.”
 
Hits that are far less than concussion are associated with short term memory loss. Furthermore there was evidence in a study that it's cumulative hits at least over a short time period.

Forgot the study. But the conclusion is unavoidable, stop contact sports like football. Helmet technology is nice but it's too little. The nature of football is collissions. It is the sport.

A longitudinal study associating accelerometer measured hits with degree of mental impairment is nice. But given large effects are sometimes decades away it's not very practical.

Within 20 years I think pro football will be on its last legs and won't exist soon after that. Imo of course. You'll see it dropped from high schools and colleges more and more. A sport linked to brain damage is inappropriate in institutions which are supposedly about developing one's mind. All imo of course.
 
To me this is all a tackling technique issue, the way some of the players just throw their heads into a tackle, it's no wonder concussions have been so prevalent. They have to be taught to play the game like they aren't wearing a helmet, head to the side and tackle with your shoulder and arms. Obviously concussions will still happen, but I think the risks would become much more tolerable. It would be a real shame to see such a great game slowly wither away.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: PP2
To me this is all a tackling technique issue, the way some of the players just throw their heads into a tackle, it's no wonder concussions have been so prevalent.

That is somewhat true as far as it goes.

But remember the physics. A head-to-head or head-to-body shot is not needed for a concussion. All that is needed is for the head to experience enough acceleration (especially twisting). You could have the best helmet in the world, but if a fast enough runner is stopped quickly enough (even if from a shot to the body) he can get a concussion.

But beyond that, if the studies that seem to show a link between subconcussive hits (i.e. normal line play) and neurological degeneration end up being confirmed, then football as we know it is in deep, deep trouble.
 
That is somewhat true as far as it goes.

But remember the physics. A head-to-head or head-to-body shot is not needed for a concussion. All that is needed is for the head to experience enough acceleration (especially twisting). You could have the best helmet in the world, but if a fast enough runner is stopped quickly enough (even if from a shot to the body) he can get a concussion.

But beyond that, if the studies that seem to show a link between subconcussive hits (i.e. normal line play) and neurological degeneration end up being confirmed, then football as we know it is in deep, deep trouble.
If that's the case then any sport with physical contact above jogging pace is surely doomed, soccer, both codes of rugby, aussie rules, ice hockey and I'm sure many more. Having never played the game I couldn't comment on the line play argument, would they not have to prove though that lineman actually suffer more compared to your average person, as in suffering the effects of dementia etc?
 
To me this is all a tackling technique issue, the way some of the players just throw their heads into a tackle, it's no wonder concussions have been so prevalent. They have to be taught to play the game like they aren't wearing a helmet, head to the side and tackle with your shoulder and arms. Obviously concussions will still happen, but I think the risks would become much more tolerable. It would be a real shame to see such a great game slowly wither away.
People also bang their heads off the ground.
 
You'll never be able to remove hits from football without removing football from football.

A couple inches of material around the skull will help prevent a skull from getting crushed but not much more. There is no material that will change the reality that a sudden a stop of a head in a short distance can cause concussions.

So then what? Outlaw football? It's not even among the most dangerous jobs, let alone the most dangerous.

Sue after concussions. Sure, if someone doesn't know. But how long can anyone use that excuse?

I'm of the opinion that people can do what they want. Football can give concussions. Play it or don't.
 
It is simply not in the NFL's best interest to support that program.

As a practical matter, there there's nowhere for the program to go beyond what is already known except to conclude that elimination of contact is the only real answer.

It's like replicating a taste bud and then embarking on a program to understand exactly how bad dog **** tastes
 
You'll never be able to remove hits from football without removing football from football.

A couple inches of material around the skull will help prevent a skull from getting crushed but not much more. There is no material that will change the reality that a sudden a stop of a head in a short distance can cause concussions.

So then what? Outlaw football? It's not even among the most dangerous jobs, let alone the most dangerous.

Sue after concussions. Sure, if someone doesn't know. But how long can anyone use that excuse?

I'm of the opinion that people can do what they want. Football can give concussions. Play it or don't.

That's the point.....there's no way to diffuse the energy of instant acceleration through a helmet of that size.....

Something like this might help....with the correct material in the inside

940x.jpg


People will want to play regardless....
 
That's the point.....there's no way to diffuse the energy of instant acceleration through a helmet of that size.....

Something like this might help....with the correct material in the inside

940x.jpg


People will want to play regardless....
If we make them wear weights so they can't run it would work also.
 
And while people were talking about why it wouldn't work, I just made one:
MEMS Accelerometer from STMicroelectronics Is Part of Newly Launched Brain Sentry Impact Sensor

ST_MEMS_Brain_Sentry_t3467s.jpg

Did you really post the first **** that popped up in a search....it's great if you like to know how hard the helmet has been hit.....beyond a simple test of magnitude in a go/no go result, information will be limited....

First, you'll need to go inside, sensors in mouth guards that are are better than the current tuning-fork style used by most.....bulk acoustic wave sensors will provide the needed dynamic range, but I digress.....the outcome of this kind of program will not yield the result the NFL prefers and they already know it. Why would they ever find a program whose conclusion would be to stop playing football?
 
You'll never be able to remove hits from football without removing football from football.

A couple inches of material around the skull will help prevent a skull from getting crushed but not much more. There is no material that will change the reality that a sudden a stop of a head in a short distance can cause concussions.

So then what? Outlaw football? It's not even among the most dangerous jobs, let alone the most dangerous.

Sue after concussions. Sure, if someone doesn't know. But how long can anyone use that excuse?

I'm of the opinion that people can do what they want. Football can give concussions. Play it or don't.
I agree with that but you wouldn't see a rugby player stick his head into someones knees, the helmet seems to give the players a sense of invincibility. Teach a safe tackling technique from a young age and hopefully that would at least reduce the number of concussions.
 
I agree with that but you wouldn't see a rugby player stick his head into someones knees, the helmet seems to give the players a sense of invincibility. Teach a safe tackling technique from a young age and hopefully that would at least reduce the number of concussions.

Rugby players get lots of concussions too
 
As a practical matter, there there's nowhere for the program to go beyond what is already known except to conclude that elimination of contact is the only real answer.

It's like replicating a taste bud and then embarking on a program to understand exactly how bad dog **** tastes
Right. What the NFL could do is come up with a "Hit Meter" to graphically show how hard the collision was.

I'm sure the bloodthirsty ignorant would love it.
 
That is somewhat true as far as it goes.

But remember the physics. A head-to-head or head-to-body shot is not needed for a concussion. All that is needed is for the head to experience enough acceleration (especially twisting). You could have the best helmet in the world, but if a fast enough runner is stopped quickly enough (even if from a shot to the body) he can get a concussion.

But beyond that, if the studies that seem to show a link between subconcussive hits (i.e. normal line play) and neurological degeneration end up being confirmed, then football as we know it is in deep, deep trouble.

I'm not sure if you are truly a Quantum Mechanic, but methinks you know your physics. ;)

Interesting what you said about the twisting (i.e., angular or rotational) acceleration. Does a torque (causing a rotational acceleration) cause more damage than a linear acceleration? The linear acceleration would presumably (hopefully gently) slam the brain against the skull. I could see how a torque could lead to a rotational acceleration that would twist the brain on the brain stem, I wonder if that would do more damage? I have no clue (not something I know about), have you heard anything about torques / twisting accelerations being especially harmful. It would kind of make sense. o_O
 
Status
Not open for further replies.


Patriots News 4-28, Draft Notes On Every Draft Pick
MORSE: A Closer Look at the Patriots Undrafted Free Agents
Five Thoughts on the Patriots Draft Picks: Overall, Wolf Played it Safe
2024 Patriots Undrafted Free Agents – FULL LIST
MORSE: Thoughts on Patriots Day 3 Draft Results
TRANSCRIPT: Patriots Head Coach Jerod Mayo Post-Draft Press Conference
2024 Patriots Draft Picks – FULL LIST
TRANSCRIPT: Patriots CB Marcellas Dial’s Conference Call with the New England Media
So Far, Patriots Wolf Playing It Smart Through Five Rounds
Wolf, Patriots Target Chemistry After Adding WR Baker
Back
Top